how do you fix...

[tonyhathaway 0]

There is a dilema. How do you teach someone to progress with parachute sizes and speed at a reasonable pace, when their mentality is "I want to go fast" That is often coupled with a form of "I don't really need help" , or "they don't really know my skill" That is human nature. The ones who listen to, or seek advice, and sometimes pay for it, are often the ones who don't need it as much as the ones who won't take it even when its free. You can teach them if they want to listen, you can't change the mindset of the ones who want to go fast and think they're OK on their own. Speed now, the known consequences of that speed ins't a deterrent. I've heard it said "it's nothing 10,000 jumps can't fix". That can fix the skydiving issue, the people issue takes 10,000 years.

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[tr027 0]

My guess is it isn't anything rods, screws, painkillers, a healthy bill and sitting out for 6 months won't fix.

Different people have different methods of learning that work for them. Not everybody can learn the easier way; statistically some will prefer learning the hard way. Better be tough, cause the ground isn't soft.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[AggieDave 6]

You know what shut me up in that regard? A couple of things. Firstly, seeing a good handful of people hooking in. That's really a bad way to get the point across. Secondly, having someone rip a badass swoop on a "slow" canopy.

Try asking to borrow his rig with his "slow" canopy and swooping the hell out of it. Maybe it'll show him he's got more to learn. Maybe not, but its worth a try.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bob.dino 0]

One of the things that worked for me was looking at the best swoopers at my DZ. Three of the four spent almost a thousand jumps each learning their first canopies. I don't know the progression of the fourth person.

[Ragnarok 0]

Agreed. I will swoop the Manta someday - then I will be ready to learn some serious canopy skillz......

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[packerboy 3]

There is a pretty good video kicking around of Scott Miller doing an entire swoop course on a 230 something...

A couple downwind crashes on a 150 humbled me about my abilities to land fast.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[tr027 0]

Quote

Secondly, having someone rip a badass swoop on a "slow" canopy.

Try asking to borrow his rig with his "slow" canopy and swooping the hell out of it. Maybe it'll show him he's got more to learn. Maybe not, but its worth a try.

If it does happen please post video

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[GravityGirl 0]

I try to appeal to their ego.

Do you want to be a great pilot and make your parachute fly fast?

Or do you want a fast parachute that will make you look like a shitty pilot?

Doesn't always work. But it strikes a cord with some.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Beverly 1]

I would take them an incident report form with their name on it and ask them to sign it.

Just for when they break something and cannot write.
You just want all the paperwork in order!

There is nothing you can do but try educate. If they are arrogant and so cocksure, they will break something and learn the lesson. They all do eventually.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

There is a pretty good video kicking around of Scott Miller doing an entire swoop course on a 230 something...

It was a Navigator 220 if I remember correctly. I might have the size off an incriment but I know it was a Navigator.

Last time Scott was here he was jumping a Sabre2 150 making it look easy and ripping some killer swoops on it...then he brought out his Velocity so he could to Air-toAir coaching with a couple of us. Wow.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[popsjumper 2]

Gee, Tony, I hate to see you beat yourself up over this. You've always been highly concerned about skydiving safety and you are well-respected for it. But...

As you already know, there is no magic cure for these attitudes other than suffering the inevitable results of their actions. Sad, I know...hopefully they will see the light before they "see the light", you know?

I do see a couple of good suggestions for appealing to their better sense...Gravitygirl has a good one, I think, for dealing with the ego...I've seen that one work myself at our DZ.

Given my experience with today's equipment, I'm in no position to offer any constructive advice to you of all people...good luck.

My knee-jerk reaction would have been to tell them - Fine. Go ahead. But do it at some other DZ. You're not jumping here anymore. Goodbye.


Side Note: Dammit...I can't get my sister to quit talking about her tandem jump and the two hunks that took her..You and Eric...
I think she got off more on the "hunks" than the jump.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[lilchief 0]

Quote

There is a pretty good video kicking around of Scott Miller doing an entire swoop course on a 230 something...

A couple downwind crashes on a 150 humbled me about my abilities to land fast.

I'm kind of the guy who want fast landings. Luckily in Norway we have wingload limitations. I can't have a higher wingload than 1,1 until i reach more than 200 jumps.

I'm currently jumping a pilot 210 wit approx 1,0 in WL. I feel that the size of that canopy limits my ability to learn riser landings. The reason is that when i pull down both risers it takes max 2 sec before the canopy pull my arms up(even when they are close to my shoulders). And then the canopy flattens out quite fast, or at least that's how it feels on my harness.

I'm still using the riser above 150f to prevent me from hitting the ground in a manner I won't like.

I'll try this winter to see if I can get more out of it, if not, I'm considering downsizing to a sabre 2 190(a pilot 188 will exceed WL limitations)

I hope to get some good advice/tips to this, mail, or as an answer on this thread.

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[dharma1976 0]

I do it by handin out "got titanium?" shirts to all the badass swoopers that have some, then when the younguns ask them what that means they can show off there zippers...

hey man I learned to swoop on a bad ass canopya sabre2 170...it can go fast trust me....

cheers

dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Do you want to be a great pilot and make your parachute fly fast?

Or do you want a fast parachute that will make you look like a shitty pilot?

I like that. Can I use it?

[GravityGirl 0]

Yup.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[billvon 2,476]

I approach this by saying "OK, fine. But if you're an expert at flying your canopy, then surely you can do a 45 degree turn during the flare, or a 90 degree turn at 50 feet, or a rear riser flare, right? Just make sure you can do all that before you downsize."

I wrote a longer article on this in the S+T section.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

I'm currently jumping a pilot 210 wit approx 1,0 in WL. I feel that the size of that canopy limits my ability to learn riser landings.

You ever think you might be one othe people he is talking about? You can learn riser landing on any size canopy.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[McDuck 0]

It may not be as feasible as it sounds, but it can't hurt to conduct some training sessions regarding canopy flight, giving jumpers a list to tick off on as they complete necessary skills safely. I know I'd participate.

Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28
"I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC
Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school.

[Tink1717 2]

Quote

How do you teach someone to progress with parachute sizes and speed at a reasonable pace, when their mentality is "I want to go fast" That is often coupled with a form of "I don't really need help" , or "they don't really know my skill" ...

You either wait for them to biff OR kick them off the DZ. They won't/don't respond to learning, won't accept the lessons from more experienced and can't/won't accept criticism. Make sure they have good health insurance and wish them luck at their new DZ, they will need it.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[Ron 7]

If you ever find out how to get someone who knows more than their experience shows to listen to those who actually have that experience....Please tell me.

I have no clue. I try, but most of my efforts get met with grief.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[RhondaLea 3]

Show them the appropriate (relative to what it is they are doing) carnage video.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[darrenspooner 0]

I guess I take a Darwinian view of this. If he really is that good he'll survive, if he's not then he's not meant to. As an instructor, I guess you just need to make sure that ou have done what you should do. Then if he goes in he goes in. I'm a psychologist, and its sort of the same for suicidal patients. You can only do so much, but if they are going to kill themselves then they will.

[billvon 2,476]

>I feel that the size of that canopy limits my ability to learn riser landings.

Nope! The exact same thing will happen on a smaller canopy; the penalty for mistakes will just be much higher.

Practice doing that lower and lower until you can do it close to the ground and get the 'planeout' to happen at ground level. That's about the safest sort of HP landing there is; double fronts. Do NOT let go of your toggles and do NOT stick your whole hand in the riser. If you can't hang on, work on strength. Make sure your brake lines are long enough.

Next, try turning in the flare. Do that approach, start the flare 20 degrees off the windline, then turn the canopy into the wind as you flare. That will teach you control during the flare.

Next try flat turning; you can get a lot of turn with very little loss of altitude at those loadings.

Next try landing with just rear risers. On a 1:1 canopy with decent wind that should be no problem; just prepare to PLF in case you make a mistake.

Also do some crosswind and no wind landings. Try landing up a slight uphill.

After you do all that, you will likely be ready for the next size down.

[lilchief 0]

thanks both sparky and billvon. I'll start practicing asap.
I thought for my self that deciding to downsize just after 25 jumps on a brand new canopy just didn't seem right. What said about Scot Miller doing an entire swoop course on a 220 or 230 also helped convincing me.

I really don't want to get titanium in me at all

Thanks guy's. I'll be happy with my Pilot and stop b***ing

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[mattmais 0]

I've been out of the sport for about 10 yrs now and getting back into it. Didnt even pick up a parachutist durring that time off.

IT BLOWS ME AWAY that so many people are getting hurt landing! It was almost unheard of reading an incident about someone getting hurt/killed landing.

I just dont get it...really i dont.

But again, when younger, I didn't see the fear of riding a motorcycle at 150+ mph down country roads.....until a couple of friends were "scraped" off the pavement.

Please all, be careful.