Not your usual downsize question?

[Icon134 0]

I hear a lot of people tell me that when they down size the smaller canopy feels substiantially different then the larger canopy.

I'm not planning to step down again any time soon but when I have downsized (completed AFF on a Sabre2 190, my first rig had a Sabre2 170 and I started jumping the 150 I'm on right now about 60 jumps back... or so...)

When I did down size the canopies didn't "feel" that much different... Is this unusual? or have others experienced this as well...

I've been told that canopies don't generally get "twitchy" until you are on 135's and smaller. When I downsized one of the things I did was to try the smaller canopy and if it had felt too fast/twitchy I wouldn't have downsized. (oh, and before doing so I always consulted with my instructors...)

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[sundevil777 94]

More agressively tapered/elliptical canopies will be more responsive, or twitchy. The Sabre2 is not tapered so much.

Many people will get a more tapered and smaller canopy at the same time, which can be extra dangerous.

See ya in the spring!

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[dharma1976 0]

hmmm I noticed a huge difference between the 170 and the 150...but I am also in the 210 range out the door...

see when I started I think people said that canopies got twitchy at the 150 line :-P

and that was only 2 years ago or so....

fly safe brother remember it is better to steer with your front risers than to pull and pray....and if you dont know what that means go find scott miller or brian germain...or some other canopy coash that I dont know...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[FrogNog 1]

When you don't feel a significant difference between two sizes of canopies (or two sizes of the same canopy), you could try flying them harder to see if that makes the differences more apparent.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[simplyputsi 0]

If i get shit thrown at me for this icon I'm gonna beat you next time I see you.
I had the same experience when going from sabre2 170 to a sabre2 150. The thing I noticed the most was my landing speed and approach angles. I'm still tweaking everything to get that down. When I get some more money I'll be enlisting some help of a canopy coach. I have to say I've played around quite a bit with my new canopy to get the feel of it. I don't think it is twitchy. I'm not considering downsizing anytime soon though. For now, and probably for awhile, I'm very content with just doing the typical left hand pattern and turning in for final anywhere from 3-5 hundred feet. k, i'm pretty much babbling now.

Skymama's #2 stalker -

[teason 0]

I've also noticed a tremendous differance between a Sabre 170 and a 150. The Old sabres didn't fly too well when loaded 1.4 or more. The 170 flew, the 150 sank. They were disigned in the days of "1:1, wow! You're extreme!" My Sabre 170 actually has a max exit wieght of 187lbs.(Thats 1.1:1!)

Well enough of the history.

Going from a 190 to a 170 to a 150 won't seem radically different if you are really light. Going from a Manta 288 to a Sabre2 135, however, would throw you for a loop.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[billvon 2,426]

>The Old sabres didn't fly too well when loaded 1.4 or more.

Hmm. I put some jumps on a Sabre 1 120 loaded about 1.7 to 1; landed great. I was seriously considering that as my 'next' canopy because I didn't want a Stiletto, and the 120 had much of the performance without the spin-up issues. But the Safire 1 had just come out, and I liked the openings on that a lot better.

[skybytch 259]

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When I get some more money I'll be enlisting some help of a canopy coach.

Put aside some of your jump money and do it now instead of later. It'll be the best money you'll spend in skydiving, guaranteed... and what you learn just may save your life someday.

[teason 0]

Back in the day (when hook turns were "don't ask don't tell") we did alot of straight in approaches. That's when I could really notice a difference in sink rate.

Still landed fine though, just had more sink than fly. Good if you wanted to dive, the Stilletto was still a couple of years off and the Nova (it was reported) didn't somuch fly as plummet ("Sharper than a sword" was the ad...Heh)

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Icon134 0]

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More agressively tapered/elliptical canopies will be more responsive, or twitchy. The Sabre2 is not tapered so much.

Many people will get a more tapered and smaller canopy at the same time, which can be extra dangerous.
reply]

Actually, I understand this, and would expect that the canopy would fly different if it was more ellipitical... and I think that sort of thing is a bad idea.

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fly safe brother remember it is better to steer with your front risers than to pull and pray....and if you dont know what that means go find scott miller or brian germain...or some other canopy coash that I dont know...

ok, I just love to accelerate my canopy (at higher altitudes) with a nice front riser dive and I understand why this is better then toggling... (mostly its about speed...) I've actually gotten some formal canopy coaching (from TJ Langren, fwiw...) I pretty much use fronts, rears, and toggles when I'm flying my wing. (of course, this is off topic )

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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[billvon 2,426]

>Still landed fine though, just had more sink than fly.

Sounds like a Katana!

>and the Nova (it was reported) didn't somuch fly as plummet.

Yeah, but they landed great.

[nvanduyn 0]

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When I get some more money I'll be enlisting some help of a canopy coach.

Put aside some of your jump money and do it now instead of later. It'll be the best money you'll spend in skydiving, guaranteed... and what you learn just may save your life someday.

I agree, I saved up about 400 bucks and one weekend when scott miller was out at our DZ I became a student again :) Took both his beginner and advanced courses

I was having some issues with timing the flares on landing on smaller canopies, he fixed everything. I have to say, best money I have ever spent.

------
-Nick

[RevJim 0]

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>The Old sabres didn't fly too well when loaded 1.4 or more.

Hmm. I put some jumps on a Sabre 1 120 loaded about 1.7 to 1; landed great. .

My old, ragged out 135, IMO flew way better than my current 150. It was easier to get back from long spots, better flare, smoother openings... The wing loadings were very similar. As I upsized my body, I got a bigger canopy. I should have kept the 135.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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When I get some more money I'll be enlisting some help of a canopy coach.

Put aside some of your jump money and do it now instead of later. It'll be the best money you'll spend in skydiving, guaranteed... and what you learn just may save your life someday.

Or better yet, just find a fully qualified competitive canopy pilot to help you out for free. Not everyone out there feels gouging students is a way of life.

Chuck

[LawnDart21 0]

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I've been told that canopies don't generally get "twitchy" until you are on 135's and smaller.

I'm 220lbs out the door, and my experience has been that very very few canopies I have ever jumped have felt "twitchy".

Sabre 190 = Not twitchy
Sabre 170 = Not twitchy
Sabre 150 = Not twitchy
Cobalt 135 = Not twitchy
Cobalt 120 = Not twitchy
Cobalt 105 = Not twitchy
Cobalt 95 = A little twitchy
Crossfire 99 = twitchy
VX 99 = Not twitchy
Xaos 88 = Not twitchy

Twitchy canopies (in my opinion) are just canopies (at certain wing loadings) that are highly sensative to the body's harness symmetry in the harness. If your not symmetrical in your harness, your distorting the trim of the canopy, even ever so slightly, it will cause the canopy to "search" for a direction to go, hence it appears twitchy. Add to that, if a harness is inducing a slight turn, it is very likely the jumper is not aware of it, as they subconsiously may be countering the turn with slight toggle pressure in the other direction, thereby causing the canopy to continue to fly straight, but with a slightly reduced efficiency, hence it feels twitchy.

I've heard the same thing you have from people about canopies under a certain size being "twitchy", and I've asked these people to explain what they meant by twitchy. 9 outof 10 times the answer is just "You know, twitchy".

For me, I have found that over 2.2 on a non-crossbraced canopy, that there exists a slight twitch in those canopies. I have flown crossbraces at 2.5 that did not feel twitchy in the sense that I described above. Do canopies react faster as they get smaller? Yes. Are they more sensative to harness and toggle input as they get smaller? Yes. Do they all get twitchy below a certain size? My answer would be no.

Hope that helps.

ps- Regardless of what is posted here, your instructors should be your conclusive resource on the topic.

Blue skies, Tom

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Icon134 0]

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Hope that helps.

ps- Regardless of what is posted here, your instructors should be your conclusive resource on the topic.

I'm not really seeking advice... (there are numerous qualified people at my Home DZ, and elsewhere...) that I can get very useful advice about my skills.

I'm more or less just looking for exactly what you said and you're explaination makes sense.

Thanks,

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Remster 24]

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Or better yet, just find a fully qualified competitive canopy pilot to help you out for free

Chuck,

not meant at you, but being a great swooper doesnt make one a great coach. Coaching involves a heck of a lot more then knowing what to do.

EDIT: but yes, some good local guy with good coaching technique is a good bet too.

Remster

[tso-d_chris 0]

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When I get some more money I'll be enlisting some help of a canopy coach.

Put aside some of your jump money and do it now instead of later. It'll be the best money you'll spend in skydiving, guaranteed... and what you learn just may save your life someday.

Or better yet, just find a fully qualified competitive canopy pilot to help you out for free. Not everyone out there feels gouging students is a way of life.

Chuck

I would hardly consider Scott's pricing to be gouging. His is some of the most valuable, least expensive coaching available. And I have tried getting similar information from world class canopy pilots. It doesn't compare.

Just having the experience doesn't mean shit as a coach if you can't communicate what has been learned from that experience to a student. Scott has that ability in spades. I don't know about any of the others, such as Brian Germain, but I've never heard anyone say anything other than money well spent for canopy coaches.

I know of at least one world class canopy pilot that gets coaching from Scott fairly often.

For Great Deals on Gear

[riggerrob 558]

My second-hand (maybe 800) Stiletto 135 was super "twitchy" when I first got it. It developed lien twists during my first jump on it, constantly "hunted" and did not have that great a flare.
In other words, it had all of the bad habits, but none of the good habits that Stiletto pilots like to brag about.
I hated that canopy until I relined it.
Now all the bad habits are gone.

[LawnDart21 0]

No worries....lol......You were very clear in your post you weren't lookng for advice. I just have a habit of posting:

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ps- Regardless of what is posted here, your instructors should be your conclusive resource on the topic.

Or some bastardization of that idea whenever gear or training is the question. It helps me sleep better at night......lol

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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>The Old sabres didn't fly too well when loaded 1.4 or more.

Hmm. I put some jumps on a Sabre 1 120 loaded about 1.7 to 1; landed great.

Depends on density altitude. With a 9000+ foot density altitude (5000-6000' field elevation, hot summer day) I don't think Sabres and Monarchs shut down well enough when loaded over about 1.4:1. With a beer gut bumping my exit weight up to 200 pounds I thought 135 square foot rectangular canopies (1.5 pounds/square foot) were getting marginal on hot no-wind summer days.

Down at sea level canopies feel like a full size to two large flown up here.

[skybytch 259]

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Or better yet, just find a fully qualified competitive canopy pilot to help you out for free.

I'm not of the opinion that it takes a competitive swooper to teach someone basic canopy survival skills - how to fly a pattern and adapt it to different conditions/locations, do flat turns and time and perform their flare correctly. I'm not at all sure it takes a competitive swooper to teach the basics of high performance landings either; a competent swooper with good teaching skills can do that.

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Not everyone out there feels gouging students is a way of life.

The $75 I paid Scott Miller for his basic skills course was the best money I've spent in this sport. I don't consider it "gouging" for someone to ask to be paid for the time and effort they put into preparing the information, planning the course and staying on the ground teaching when they could be jumping.

I know quite a few very good swoopers who are happy to provide 12 ounces of coaching - i.e. hand them a beer and pick their brain. To me this is quite different than what Scott and others are doing.

How much is a first wingsuit flight briefing these days?

[dustin19d 0]

I didn't notice much of a difference between a 190 and a 170. The 150 I have now only felt fast for a few jumps and now It feals big and sluggish like the 170.

[Meux 0]

Scott's canopy course is great value for what he teaches. I strongly recommend it to everyone. I've only done the basic course and look forward to doing the advanced in the spring.

Mo

[justinb138 0]

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I didn't notice much of a difference between a 190 and a 170. The 150 I have now only felt fast for a few jumps and now It feals big and sluggish like the 170.

Did you try releasing the brakes?