ph8068 0 #1 June 21, 2004 You're in freefall and suddenly you see a reserve above your head. You made no attempt to deploy either canopy and the main is still in the container. The reserve has suffered some damage - it is flying and is perhaps landable but probably not without injury. How you got to this scenario is irrelevant. (Quick note for newbies - don't panic that this will happen to you, it is most likely to happen to experienced skydivers in head-down positions). You consider the possibility of deploying your main immediately but realise the risks of entanglement or an unrecoverable downplane. You consider cutting away the reserve with your hook knife and deploying the main. If you can do this, likelihood is you will be safe and sound. Is this a good idea? Obviously, once you have started this procedure, there is no going back you'd want to be pretty confident of the results. Consider the following: 1. Will an average hook knife be able to cut through a reserve riser? Does anyone have any evidence to say yes or no, or can any riggers answer this question? My suspicion is that the first of the 4 risers will be easy, when they are under high tension. But once you get to the last one, the tension is less - will this be as easy? 2. Once one riser is cut, will the reserve want to spin or would it pretty much collapse about you? Would the spin be so intense as to stop you continuing the procedure? Depends on the reserve size I do realise. Again, anyone able to give evidence either way? 3. Would there be a correct "order" to cut the risers to make the procedure most likely to proceed? Both fronts first? Both rears first? Both on one side first? 4. How much altitude is the whole procedure likely to burn? 5. Can you suggest any further issues which would need to be considered? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #2 June 21, 2004 Step 2 is the one that makes me think it would be better to risk an entanglement, hoping to get to a two-out (which may or may not be manageable), than to try and cut the reserve and end up with something spinning so violently you can't cut it away but with too little airspeed to deploy your main. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #3 June 21, 2004 You can see what a canopy attached by only one riser looks like in THIS video. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 26 #4 June 21, 2004 QuoteThe reserve has suffered some damage - it is flying and is perhaps landable but probably not without injury PLF the hell out of it is my answer.....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #5 June 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe reserve has suffered some damage - it is flying and is perhaps landable but probably not without injury PLF the hell out of it is my answer..... Bushes, trees or water might be even better if you can steer that much. At least that's what I'd go for in this case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #6 June 21, 2004 Personally, I'd avoid the water. Especially if you don't know how deep it is and you're expecting a landing that will injure you. You could land hard, knock yourself out and drown before anyone finds you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #7 June 21, 2004 QuotePersonally, I'd avoid the water. Especially if you don't know how deep it is and you're expecting a landing that will injure you. You could land hard, knock yourself out and drown before anyone finds you. I guess you're right. When I read "landable, but probably not without injury" I wasn't thinking about that hard a landing. (That's more like "crashable and all that goes with that" in my book...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #8 June 22, 2004 I would try to cut the lines instead of the risers. You might be able to put both L & R groups together and only have to cut 2 groups instead of 4. I would expect it to get a little violent.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #9 June 22, 2004 I think we had a discussion on this very same topic a while back.....after I saw a vid (thanks Pilot Dave) of some dude who gets ripped off the step off a Porter after his Reserve deploys... I think consensus at high altitude...was.... 1) Hope to F*!k you made a good choice of hookknife......not some lil crappy plastic effort 2) Dont forget to keep a good hold of ya hook knife or carry two of em 3) Cut risers...I believe was the recommendation.....and in terms of orders....rear then front...one side then t'other and expect some funky spinning. Cant remember what the general consensus was for lower alti stuff........but that thread was based on a +10K situation Would love to hear from anyone in similar situation who has actually had to cut risers....... Saw a vid of some fella on a BASE jump...cutting a brakeline after a lineover....knife cut through very easy....but what about risers, being a bit beefier and all....never mind the problem of rotation after getting through at least one of them..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #10 June 22, 2004 This thought just gave me chills so I thought I'd post it. The thought was that you chop your risers and then instincts take over and go through all of your handles....."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #11 June 22, 2004 QuoteThis thought just gave me chills so I thought I'd post it. The thought was that you chop your risers and then instincts take over and go through all of your handles..... Yeah, there's lots of ways to kill yourself skydiving when things don't go as planned. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #12 June 22, 2004 QuoteSaw a vid of some fella on a BASE jump...cutting a brakeline after a lineover....knife cut through very easy....but what about risers, being a bit beefier and all....never mind the problem of rotation after getting through at least one of them..... That would be Tom Aiello. He's one of the moderatorsI promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #13 June 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteSaw a vid of some fella on a BASE jump...cutting a brakeline after a lineover....knife cut through very easy....but what about risers, being a bit beefier and all....never mind the problem of rotation after getting through at least one of them..... That would be Tom Aiello. He's one of the moderators After that happened I tried cutting a tensioned riser (hung the riser from a tree and hooked into it) with the same hook knife. It cut very easily. I've got a video somewhere (it's on Beyond Extreme) of a jumper spinning in with only one riser attached (it was a failed cutaway over water). It looks pretty violent, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to get the knife on the riser under that spin. Once the knife makes it to the riser, though, I'm confident that the actual cutting could be done in short order.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #14 June 22, 2004 i knew we talked about this before - it just took me a while to find the thread... Here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #15 June 22, 2004 I was sent a couple of free hook knives last year and some lengths of riser to play with. The knives went through the riser like... well like a proverbial hot knife through butter. It was quite remarkable how easy it was. My favourite option in this situation is to put a line twist in the lines and then cutting all the lines in one go. I guess this would have to depend on having a reasonably stable canopy above me though... I figure if it were stable enough to deploy my main without entanglement it'd be stable enough to put the twist in. If its not stable enough then I figure the risk of my main entangling with it is simply too high anyway and I'd have to do something drastic regardless of the risk... In that situation I guess I'd have to do my best to take out the risers... whatever you do its hardly a great situation to find yourself in. I guess that's why we do so much to ensure prevention as opposed to cure. It's still nice to have options though; knives start at £5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #16 June 22, 2004 QuoteIt looks pretty violent, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to get the knife on the riser under that spin. Once the knife makes it to the riser, though, I'm confident that the actual cutting could be done in short order And how the hell do you practice/train for that....?? I'm gonna be looking real close at the CReW dogs i see to see what kinda cutting hardware they are packing !! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #17 June 22, 2004 >Is this a good idea? No. Stick with what will save your life. If you can control your reserve at all, it will likely land you survivably. If you start chopping and can't complete the procedure (which is extremely likely unless you have a larger reserve and have practiced it) then you will most likely die, either through impacting under half a reserve or deploying a high performance main around a spinning reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #18 June 22, 2004 Quote>Is this a good idea? No. Stick with what will save your life. If you can control your reserve at all, it will likely land you survivably. If you start chopping and can't complete the procedure (which is extremely likely unless you have a larger reserve and have practiced it) then you will most likely die, either through impacting under half a reserve or deploying a high performance main around a spinning reserve. This is very good advise. As I posted in another thread, I have tried it on several occasions during test jumps and was never able to complete it in 5,000 feet. As you cut, things get progressively worse to the point that getting both hands on the same riser is an all day job. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #19 June 24, 2004 What about having two out and then having a hook knife ready so when your 2 canopies go into a down plane you can cut the lines of the damaged reserve, would this be the best chance of avoiding an entanglement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 26 #20 June 24, 2004 Sounds like a recipe to make sure the reserve fubars's the main 1/2 way through cuting the lines....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 June 24, 2004 QuoteWhat about having two out and then having a hook knife ready so when your 2 canopies go into a down plane you can cut the lines of the damaged reserve, would this be the best chance of avoiding an entanglement? I have never tried the scenario you describe so have no idea how it would work out. I guess thats why we call it "Testing". SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
