Is it really necessary the FS1 b4 you freefly?

[kallend 1,648]

We have a similar thing going at SDC, it's called "Team Funnel". We'll jump with anyone who needs the license RW qualifications.

PS - say "HI" to Darryld when you see him.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sweep 0]

BPA Operations Manual : Section 2 Para 2

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N.B.(5). Parachutists jumping at BPA Affiliated Clubs who were trained, or jump outside the BPA system, e.g. in a foreign country, may be integrated into the appropriate FAI Certificate category as deemed suitable by a CCI.

So if you are from overseas then CCIs are able to grant you such priveleges as they think suits your experience (based on a review of your logbooks etc). If you are in fact a British jumper visiting a different UK DZ then of course this doesn't apply and you should meet the BPA minimum requirements and have the right stickers etc. But then you should also have these at home.

As has been stated several times the BPA does not require you to have FS1 to freefly - the minimum requirement is the skills listed in Mr Bounce's earlier post. However FS1 is advised and some centres do decide to require this : but since it is not an ops manual requirement a CCI is always free to waive this if he/she is convinced you have adequate belly skills.

Also, I think if you are at a DZ where the culture is such that there are no two experienced jumpers who will jump with you for your FS1 without requiring you to pay their slot that is very sad. At my club, Skydive Strathallan, all FS and FF coaching is free to club members, and the club eats the coach's slot so in fact any WARP jumps you only pay your own slot plus the relevant beer on completion of the FS1.

However even as a visitor to Skydive Algarve over the winter (and without an FS1) there were people of all levels of experience I had never met who were more than happy to jump with me all day when Exi hooked us up. One of these jumps I stuffed up, leaving the other guy basically doing a solo, yet there was still no discussion of me paying his slot.

Even if you are doing an FS1 with three instructors I personally think you should be looking at most at two slots. The concept that the student (already often paying kit hire and only just done paying for their A licence progression) should pay the slots of three experienced jumpers - especially three that get subsidised jumps and cash from the sport already - doesn't work for me. Even if you make your living as a coach, we're only talking one level per student!

People should jump for fun - if they can make some cash without screwing people over that's great for them and they should consider themselves lucky. The price for having such a good job is to help people out once in a while.

Maybe that's just me being idealistic but this 'everyone for themselves' mentality where people take all the help they can get till they're in a position to make some cash and then wind up the drawbridge just doesn't seem to me the direction this sport should be going in.

Luckily the vast majority of people I have met don't think this way and do genuinely care about the up and coming jumpers.

Just my opinion

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Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..

[bigway 4]

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Also, I think if you are at a DZ where the culture is such that there are no two experienced jumpers who will jump with you for your FS1 without requiring you to pay their slot that is very sad. At my club, Skydive Strathallan, all FS and FF coaching is free to club members, and the club eats the coach's slot so in fact any WARP jumps you only pay your own slot plus the relevant beer on completion of the FS1.

That is awesome.....


The original poster of this thread was jumping with me this weekend (freeflying) he said he was going to do WARP. I usually take students up for free(pay my own slot) but i had to say to him that usually i would but at the moment i am so poor cause of my boogie schedule coming up that i would go him halves in my slots for his WARP if he did not want to go to the guy charging full price slots.

Would love to always do it for free but not always practical.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[AFFI 0]

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Most people get through FS1 without so much as a whimper, and without having to take a second mortgage.

That is what it would seem like to me, I dont see what all the fuss is about. One of the biggest reasons for failure I have read about here is not tracking properly and tracking is ultra important before you can advance in skydiving in any discipline, here in the states tracking is one of the important requirements befroe getting an A Liscense.

A 4 point 4 way with a proper track before deployment sounds like a simple and very basic requirement to me.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

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Would love to always do it for free but not always practical.

Aint that the truth!

[Dolph 0]

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That is what it would seem like to me, I dont see what all the fuss is about. One of the biggest reasons for failure I have read about here is not tracking properly and tracking is ultra important before you can advance in skydiving in any discipline, here in the states tracking is one of the important requirements befroe getting an A Liscense.

With tracking being such an important skill, it's a bit worrying that a good deal of people are pretty bad at it. Or lazy about it.

Maybe I am just spoiled from jumping with the same scrawny lightweight dudes though.

I sure would like to see more emphasis on horisontal separation after breakoff - not to mention keeping track of the line of flight when tracking.

[sky-pimp 0]

I've not been in the sport that long , and only resently got my fs1 . now starteddoing a bit of sit flying and from what ever angle i look at ya question i would so the better flat flyer you are the more you will get out of free flying and visa versa . besides that its good to know that if it goes pair shaped i have a good chance of taking care of things because i can flat fly .

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YeHaaaaaaaaaaa

[damion75 0]

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It is concerning but british jumpers just seem to be happy with what they are told to do

At the last count there were approximately 5000 registered skydivers in the UK. You are one. And if your jump numbers are up to date, not a very experienced one. Speak for yourself.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[popsjumper 2]

I love jumping with the newbies...it improves my control skills. I've only accepted $$ for jumps/coaching on one occasion and that was because the guy wouldn't take no for an answer.

If I don't get to practice the skills, then I always get a kick out of watching the antics. It's a no-lose situation!

I'm looking forward to Skyfest where we can fly with a bunch of them during the day.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bigway 4]

Quote

Quote

It is concerning but british jumpers just seem to be happy with what they are told to do

At the last count there were approximately 5000 registered skydivers in the UK. You are one. And if your jump numbers are up to date, not a very experienced one. Speak for yourself.

My jump numbers are not actually posted. But yes, i do have less than you.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[popsjumper 2]

Number Nazi?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pincheck 0]

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It is concerning but british jumpers just seem to be happy with what they are told to do

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At the last count there were approximately 5000 registered skydivers in the UK. You are one. And if your jump numbers are up to date, not a very experienced one. Speak for yourself.
***************

I fail to see what his experiance level has to do with this conversation.He has paid his membership like everone else so As the Bpa is elected by the membership then he has a right to come out with that statement Dude.

As for sweeps comments Strath is i guess unique today as it is a true Club basicly owned by its members/jumpers.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[damion75 0]

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I fail to see what his experiance level has to do with this conversation.He has paid his membership like everone else so As the Bpa is elected by the membership then he has a right to come out with that statement Dude.

He has the right to claim that all British Skydivers think in a certain way? I think not. How many of those skydivers does he actually know / jump with? If he had several thousand jumps then probably quite a few and he might be qualified to make that sort of generalisation. With his experience level I suggest that he has not met that many UK skydivers, so should not generalise. I would certainly not want him to think that I was happy to do, unthinking, whatever I am told. So yes, I do object to that statement.

As for electing the BPA committee, 624 BPA members elected the council, not all 5000... but that is a whole different thread...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[AFFI 0]

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He has the right to claim that all British Skydivers think in a certain way? I think not. How many of those skydivers does he actually know / jump with? If he had several thousand jumps then probably quite a few and he might be qualified to make that sort of generalisation. With his experience level I suggest that he has not met that many UK skydivers, so should not generalise. I would certainly not want him to think that I was happy to do, unthinking, whatever I am told. So yes, I do object to that statement.

Your objection to having someone make a broad generalization is a point well taken that I agree with whole heartedly. It happens in all aspects of life and it could be argued that it is human nature, when an individual might have a certain viewpoint on reality to assume what a person believes must be applicable for all.

It is not necessarily your perspective concerning this issue that may stir up contention with others but it is the condescending manner in which you choose to communicate and state your point.

Often times, when heated debate is the influence in how we decide to communicate it is best to take a moment to think about how we can better communicate our point to others diplomatically, without coming across as patronizing. Perhaps you could have decided to make your opinion known without belittling another publicly; this might have created an environment where others will be more receptive to the point you are attempting to make rather than taking defensive position.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[pincheck 0]

I didn't say he had a right to speak for others but to voice his opinion. The way you came across to me was because he didn't have a high level of experience his opinion wasn't worth a stuff. which is wrong everyone who pay's membership has the right to voice an opinion as far as i am concerned.

well i am a member 1 of the 624 who vote on council people who failed to vote well that is another thread

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[bigway 4]

For starters, I am sorry i made that statement. It was not thought out in a serious way you have taken it and i ask you to let me retract it.

Second of all... You do not know how many jumps i have, Yes i have met hundreds of UK skydivers as I have been selling gear in this country and have many loyal and happy customers, especially students.

I do not have as many jump numbers as yourself but have been in the sport longer and maybe even more involved in the sport than yourself.
I have opened a dropzone in a different country and have been involved in management of a company that owns three dropzones.
My experience has nothing to do with FS1.

I am speaking my opinion, sorry i made it personal, I only meant my opinion.
I know jumpers in the Uk get very involved with BPA rules, I also know there is hardly any weekend jumpers that like BPA rules.

Yes, i think the majority of jumpers in the uk do do what they are told. Only 600 odd people voted, that is 4400 people doing what they are told.
nearly 90% of skydivers here do not bother to have there say and are told what to do.
Jumpers in this country are very 'Mothered' by the rules and regulations.
I hate someone checking my pin, opening my flaps and closing them, having to sign me off to make a jump, signing back in after a jump or getting a bollocking. I HATE HOW FREEFLIERS get out of the plane first. That is the dumbest thing i have ever seen. You call that safe in this country!!
I dont want to get out of a plane first when i am freeflying, neither do any freefliers i know but we are told we have to so we do. WE ARE TOLD WE HAVE TO SO WE DO!.

You dont think that is doing what we are told to do.
Every jumper at Langar, Hinton and headcorn are told the exit order and it is wrong. But we do it cause we are told.
That is what i meant.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[meistwer 0]

Quote

Quote

It is concerning but british jumpers just seem to be happy with what they are told to do

At the last count there were approximately 5000 registered skydivers in the UK. You are one. And if your jump numbers are up to date, not a very experienced one. Speak for yourself.

You are totally out of order mate, big time.
700 doesn't to me that much either, I know people with 5000+ that aren't not even close to your patronising attitude.

Aren't we in a democratic state where the right to disclose your opinions?

Blue ones

[bigway 4]

Shut up you belly flier!

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[TrickyDicky 0]

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I hate someone checking my pin, opening my flaps and closing them

then ask them not to. But you do need a flight line, but they can ask you about pins and stuff.

[bigway 4]

Cause you get screamed at if you dont.

Is it not the Dz controls job to count the canopies?

I dont mind the buddy checks. I dont mind signing back in either but i think it is pathetic seeing people getting yelled at if they forget.

My mate got in a yelling at cause this persons canopy took 1000 feet to open. It is made to for heavens sake.

Anyway, my only problem that really gets to me and makes me worry in this country is the fact that the dropzones i jump at Freefliers are getting out of the plane first.
Why is this safe? and while we do this we are also using the 45 degree rule.
It scares the shit out of me that i pull lower or at least ask everyone else behind me to pull higher.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[Stumpy 256]

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my only problem that really gets to me and makes me worry in this country is the fact that the dropzones i jump at Freefliers are getting out of the plane first.

Jump somewhere else then?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[bigway 4]

Sure, easier said than done.
The dropzone i like is an hour away that has this problem. I have tried another that i also like that is three hours away, has this problem.

It is not very practical just to go to the other side of the country each weekend without a car.

Also, jump somewhere else does not solve the problem does it. It may for me but does it solve the problem for the rest of the loads that are going up?

Anyway, who am i to say what is right and wrong. I am not a CCI, nor am i an instructor.
It will change one day when someone figures it out. Hopefully it does not take a tragedy to happen.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[billvon 2,434]

>Also, jump somewhere else does not solve the problem does it. It
> may for me but does it solve the problem for the rest of the loads
> that are going up?

If they realize they're going to have to shut down because everyone is going elsewhere due to safety issues, then they will suddenly see the issue in a new light.

>It will change one day when someone figures it out.

Sounds like lots of people have figured it out, but they're like you - and so no need to change.

[bigway 4]

Quote

>Also, jump somewhere else does not solve the problem does it. It
> may for me but does it solve the problem for the rest of the loads
> that are going up?

If they realize they're going to have to shut down because everyone is going elsewhere due to safety issues, then they will suddenly see the issue in a new light.

>It will change one day when someone figures it out.

Sounds like lots of people have figured it out, but they're like you - and so no need to change.

Actually the dropzone that i go to now and then is close but people have stopped going there in masses, however it is not due to this factor.

If people have learnt at these dropzones that do it this way they do not know any better so that is not an effective solution.
People need to be taught. I wish i could but with my lack of jump number(experience) it is not going to be me teaching them.
Would you not agree with that Bill?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[damion75 0]

In order...

To AFFI

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Perhaps you could have decided to make your opinion known without belittling another publicly; this might have created an environment where others will be more receptive to the point you are attempting to make rather than taking defensive position

Fair one - sorry. Perhaps less coffee for me in future!

To Meistwer

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700 doesn't to me that much either

Me either - that is kind of my point. I wouldnt seek to generalise or re-write policy at my experience level, let alone less.

To Bigway

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I hate someone checking my pin, opening my flaps and closing them, having to sign me off to make a jump, signing back in after a jump or getting a bollocking. I HATE HOW FREEFLIERS get out of the plane first. That is the dumbest thing i have ever seen. You call that safe in this country!!

I think we are getting away from the purpose of the thread here and the FS1 v FF question is always going to be a heated one since it is all about opinion.

Personally I agree with gear checks, they save lives. I also agree with signing back in, but not with (public) bollockings when you don't - a quiet word should be enough. I strongly disagree (as do you) with the FF before FS exit order. It is not the policy at my DZ though, which is nice and on the very few occasions when JMs have tried to send the FF out first I have objected and it has been altered. Inexperienced I may be in the bigger picture but its my life so I will speak up, not stay silent on issues like this.

Promoting a 'sheep' culture on a DZ where people will not bring safety problems like this into the open for fear of being shouted down is sure counter-productive in safety terms?

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.