bigway 4 #76 June 21, 2006 Dougie is CCi at the time being. As far as i know Dave is at Weston. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #77 June 21, 2006 what are the rules here when it comes to foreigners with low jump numbers then? say for example a couple of yanks come over with low jump numbers (around the 70 mark, maybe) and a-licenses and want to do a 2-way, would they be allowed because they have uspa licenses and therefore dont come under BPA regs in that respect? i know everything people do in some respect the cci has a veto over, but would he make them do a 4 point 4-way or do a check jump with them before hed let them do it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #78 June 21, 2006 QuoteI now remeber part of his logic..... It was that freefliers generally have smaller canopies. (that was only part of it.) That's the worst excuse used of all time. The only reason DZs do this is either ego (blatantly unsafe) or a lack of understanding or disregard for how freefall drift works (this is dangerous, but at least there might be good intentions involved). Tell me - when you visited, did his logic drive plane loading solely on canopy size and not on freefall discipline? I'll bet you a dollar that he also put out "newbie" freeflyers with 180 sqft canopies before experienced 4-way teams on Velo97s. Please tell me I'm wrong...... I'll always trust horizontal separation over vertical. The only decent reason I've ever heard (for 'typical' wind patterns - high up top, less down low and in the same direction) is for DZs using cross wind jump runs. Any faulty logic used can be as convincing as he likes, but physics will win in the end. Big digression anyway - tons of topics on this. Glad to see that only the faulty 'vertical' separation argument has come up and not the nutty 45 degree rule. Maybe there is some learning going on..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #79 June 21, 2006 Quoteas a christian would be to becoming a mormon Ummmm, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I thoughts Mormons were Christians... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #80 June 21, 2006 you mean theres something wrong with the 45degree rule? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #81 June 21, 2006 Freefly out first then rw. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #82 June 21, 2006 big sky theory hasn't killed me yet (and before anyone says anything, i can confirm that that was, indeed, humour of one form or another) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #83 June 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteThere's a reason we do AFF on our bellies. It's easier to fly that way, and easier to learn all the other stuff (like altitude awareness) in a stable body position - which a sit is not. I am not 100% on this but i think in New zealand they have started a new AFF down in Queenstown. It is a 16 level AFF course all with one instructor and has freeflying exits as part of levels. This is what i have been told by a student from there but am not sure how correct it is. From the video i saw, it seemed correct. Sit flying has been part of SkydiveChicago's AFP program for a decade (or more).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #84 June 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe 4 point 4-way is not as simple as it sounds. You can take 3 other jumpers with resonable abilities and use a folding chair for the fourth and turn 4 points. If not, you should not be FF. Hey, I think I've jumped with that guy (the folding chair).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #85 June 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt seems to vary from DZ to DZ in the UK. Nethers put FF out AFTER FS, Headcorn still put FF out first. You can see that the right information is flowing slow. If they insist on RW after FF, you can use my simulator to figure out a safe delay. It may be much longer than you think!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #86 June 21, 2006 QuoteFreefly out first then rw. I asked you to tell me I'm wrong. So the obvious choice there when doing the first RW exit is wait extra long before following the last FF exit (a wise man on this issue notes it may be much longer than you'd think) - then do the Tandem masters start screaming and swearing "GOGOGOGOGOGO"? You friend is purposely adding an unneeded level of risk into an already risky sport. Sorry you can't convince him otherwise. I'm sure he thinks he's doing the right thing. He's wrong, but most people mean well. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #87 June 21, 2006 So what happens if an experienced overseas (say US) visitor goes to a UK DZ? Do they have to demonstrate FS1 skills before being allowed to jump with others?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #88 June 21, 2006 If there is no wind up top the tandem master are screaming as the first freefly is getting ready to go out the door. Aint that the same everywhere? Hinton is a great place, run by great people. The dropzones in the UK just seem to be a bit backwards about freeflying and exit order. This should be bought up at the next BPA.... I for one will ask my CCi to have a look at Bills report on exit order. It is concerning but british jumpers just seem to be happy with what they are told to do. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #89 June 21, 2006 Legally.... YES. However most CCi's understand your jump numbers. I had it good but now when turning up to other dz's i had to get these signatures. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #90 June 21, 2006 QuoteIf there is no wind up top the tandem master are screaming as the first freefly is getting ready to go out the door. Aint that the same everywhere? mostly IMHO - A tandem master screaming at people to "get out, GET OUT" and swearing, etc should consider just how professional he is.... That passenger has no idea why his 'instructor' is yelling and is likely thinking the airplane is about to crash. We have great TM's and they all know about spotting. They almost never miss the airport, why should they? They have the whole jump to see where they are and decide if they need to open early. This would all be easier if all skydivers would just learn about two things - freefall drift and spotting - lack of knowledge of both creates a group of people that have no idea of when and where to get out, so they all just think 'right now' is always the best. But, I guess just piling out on the green light on each other in the order most convenient to the DZO's ego will just have to do. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #91 June 21, 2006 QuoteLegally.... YES. However most CCi's understand your jump numbers. I had it good but now when turning up to other dz's i had to get these signatures. Maybe I could get Lesley Gale to vouch for me I was on a 134 way with her.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meistwer 0 #92 June 21, 2006 Quotei suggest he complains to the BPA rather than moaning here and see what they say ( I have a fair idea [;) I'm not moaning, my original post said clrearly....'What's your opnion about this?' I just want to know what people think whitout the hidden agenda of getting excuses to bend the rules. About the comments about my French license, I hold the B2 which allows me to jump with people. I have to adhere to the rules from here becuase I live here. As I'm also a BPA member paying for the membership I recognise it as the body that regulates my skydiving in the UK thus I'll do what they say. Blue ones Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #93 June 21, 2006 Is the BPA under the government, or is it "independent" like the USPA in the states? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #94 June 21, 2006 Quoteyou mean theres something wrong with the 45degree rule? Exit Separation Revisited Posted Wed May 10 2006 By Bill von Novak Bill goes into detail about the 45degree thing... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=628 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #95 June 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteLegally.... YES. However most CCi's understand your jump numbers. I had it good but now when turning up to other dz's i had to get these signatures. Maybe I could get Lesley Gale to vouch for me I was on a 134 way with her. John: when we showed up in England, we only showed our canadian licences, logbooks, paid for the BPA membership and were doing RW the same day.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #96 June 21, 2006 >I have seen people fail FS1 a few times and each time they paid all 4 slots. I am starting to think the problem is not the FS1 requirement, but the attitude at the DZ(s) you are jumping at. Here's how such a requirement would be met at Perris: A jumper graduates AFF. He does a few coached jumps. Perhaps he gets some wind tunnel time. When he is ready to do a 4-way he approaches an organizer, say Darryld. Darryld (who is an AFF-I and who gets his slot paid by the DZ when he's doing RW organizing) gets two other people of adequate skill level. They go up, jump, and try it. If they get the 4 points, great. If not, you're out one jump ticket and you get some free coaching. USPA has a requirement for a 2 point 8 way (for RW) before one can get the C license. That's how many people obtain at Perris obtain it. If Darryld is not available, said jumper might approach Dan BC (the manager) and ask if someone's available to do that. If Dan's free often he will do it. If not he will look around the DZ, find someone who's not doing anything (often me) and hand him off to me. Then my slot gets paid, I find another two jumpers and off we go. I am all for skills requirements before proceeding on to the next level - they make skydiving safer for everyone. To go along with that, experienced jumpers and DZO's should support programs like the Perris program that can help jumpers meet the requirements. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #97 June 21, 2006 Quote.. This should be bought up at the next BPA.... I for one will ask my CCi to have a look at Bills report on exit order. ...AND Kallend's simulation, too.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #98 June 21, 2006 its not the same everywhere, it depends who's around when you need to do the 4-way, i did it with friends, some do it with perhaps those who cant afford an extra jump and therefore get their slots paid. i personally would pay my own slot to go on someones FS1 dive (i would also recommend they not take me however, ive only got 2 post fs1 jumps...) its mostly those who see themselves as coaches who charge a ticket, as opposed to a coach just doing a jump. in spain i saw someone do it with 3 very experienced coaches who all felt they were jumping as the persons coach. trouble is its just so expensive here, i cant afford my own rig yet so its £30 a jump for me, and for someone with £3000 a year income thats alot of money Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #99 June 21, 2006 Man you guys need something like Skyfest over there... Click on my link in my sig line. "SkyFest is about creating the unique opportunity for an individual (at any skydiving experience level) to experience a multitude of skydiving activities in one weekend. This includes high altitude jumps, obtaining skydiving awards, jumping with a freefly or a belly coach, and/or jumping on a 20-way with all females, and the list goes on." Then click on the JFS Skydiving Scholarship Fund button at the top of the page.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #100 June 21, 2006 NAh we don't (although it would be nice!) This is mountain and molehill territory. Most people get through FS1 without so much as a whimper, and without having to take a second mortgage. There are sometimes FS roadshows and things like that where you can get free coaching and stuff, i think Andy Scott did some last year.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
