Is it really necessary the FS1 b4 you freefly?

[AshDeBash 0]

I agree with TrickDicky.

I do FS coaching in the UK. I will always organise the 3 and 4-way levels with people I know will be up to the task, generally not coaches/instructors themselves, but sometimes others that are keen to become a coach (gives them some "coaching" too).

At my DZ, it's accepted that you offer the coach the price of a pack-job for your time, but I don't take that unless the student insists. Other than that, it should never cost the student more than the coach's ticket for any of the levels required. If I mess up in the air, e.g. after badly misjudging (on the ground) the student's very fast fall rate, then we go do it again and I pay my own ticket.

I would hope other countries have their own ways to prove you're safe to jump with other skydivers, but I see FS1 as a just that; a good gauge of someone's ability to fly close to and safely with other skydivers until the appropriate altitude, and of their ability to get safely away from them for deployment. It's not going to get you a gold medal at the Nationals.

Anyone just off an AFF or static-line course is unlikely to have any of these skills. I believe they are easier to learn at the "sedate" pace of belly flying. FS1 gives you a good (maybe not the best/only) structure within which you can show you have learnt them.

Like others have said here, these are all skills you should be using as a freeflyer too. If you haven't learnt them yet, then your freeflying-progression might well be loaded with more risk than you should be comfortable with.

It's about building on the skills you have to get the skills you want.

[vt1977 0]

I’m not a freeflyer, but I do think it logically makes sense that you should learn the basic skills of jumping with another person at slower speeds before you try to speed things up.

To those who say that getting FS coaching is too expensive (and completely taking aside any safety arguments for learning FS skills first):

It’s not free. But then nor is FF coaching. And I take it you want to actually learn FF properly rather than spending 10,000 feet unstable before you pull??? I would guess that you will end up progressing faster through FF coached jumps if you have spent the time learning basic FS skills first. Therefore your all-up cost is likely to be lower in the end.

Just my thoughts!

Vicki

[MrBounce 0]

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I think you should be able to fly on your belly before learning freefly but i do not think you need to do warp coaching and pay for all this and pay for a 4-way jump for FS1 just to start learning how to freefly.

I think you should learn the basics, FS1 is not the basics, FS1 is learning to fly 4way.

I think England is the only country to have this system put in place and it is a crock of shit, a waste of money if you are not interested in belly flying.

Times have changed, the sport has evolved, Freeflying is part of the sport and rules should change to encourage freeflying not making it harder and costing more.

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From the BPA Ops Manual :

6.7. Freestyle/Freeflying (FF)

6.7.1. To obtain Grade 1 in Freestyle/Freeflying (FF1) the parachutist must first demonstrate (in a belly to earth position, as in 6.4.1. above) the ability to:

a) Control fall rate.
b) Control horizontal movement, (forwards, backwards and sideways).
c) Achieve ‘docking’ techniques.
d) Turn in place.
e) Dive and approach a target.

This is not FS1, just the basics of flat flying. The jump numbers/FS1 requirements are those of your dropzone. That said, the FS1 qualification is a good indicator that you at least have a basic understanding of how to fly on your belly.

Personally having done FS1 and a lot of 4-way, I've found that in trying out FF on a few occasions in the last year, I've both been better as I got better at the 4-way and also better able to appreciate and understand what my FF coach was trying to tell me. The improvement in body-awareness and the effects of airflow translate across all disciplines. And I rather learn that when things are happening slowly and I'm changing as few things as possible. i.e. while belly flying.

Gavin

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. If you don't take it out and use it, its going to rust.

[Yossarian 0]

i wasnt there when they happened, but i was told by the cci when i asked him about the rule, im goin there tomorrow so ill ask if theyre going to change anything, hopefully they should bring down the jump numbers required for the experienced landing area aswell, fed up of that walk!

[popsjumper 2]

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... I hope they willl start letting RW out first instead of freefliers....

I have a severe problem with putting FF out before FS.

Here's an excerpt from Bill Von Novak's article on exit separation:
http://www.dropzone.com/content/Detailed/628.html
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"Another issue that has become more important lately is exit order. Some places still put freeflyers out first, and that doesn't make much sense. In 30kt uppers, a belly flyer who leaves 10 seconds and gets out after freeflyer will open 100 feet from him, but if the belly flyer goes first and the freeflyer leaves the same time he will open 2200 feet from the freeflyer. RW groups, since they are in freefall longer, drift farther downwind before opening. It seems like a no-brainer to choose an exit order that used this to your advantage and increased, rather than decreased, separation distances. You can certainly wait 20 seconds after the freefly groups before the belly groups exit if there is some other reason why the freeflyers have to exit first, but at most DZ's it's hard to ensure that 20 seconds, especially since waiting so long almost guarantees long spots or a goaround."

Also, you will want to review this article about exit order.
http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

It is is based directly on the output of John Kallend's freefall simulation program set found at:
http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[phoenixlpr 0]

You may take your shortcuts.....

....shortcuts in skydiving leads to hospital, morgue, cemetery.

Its up to you.

Anyway you have a really bad attitude, but nothing that broken bones can not cure. The sooner is better like an (broken) ankle is better than a femur, or who knows someone is might waiting for your healthy kidneys.

[bigway 4]

They will never change the landing area rule by bringing the jump numbers down and that they should not ither, Far to much turbulence coming from the hangers and the runway as well as the landing area being right next to a car park. The only people who should be landing in that area are experienced canopy pilots. Just cause some people have the jump number in no way means they have a right to land there. you have camera pilots swooping in, fences, car park(public road), turbulence, hangers, crowds of people.
If there were people with under 100 jumps landing in that area i for one would start landing in the student area.
The walk back may have already saved your life.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bigway 4]

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... I hope they willl start letting RW out first instead of freefliers....

I have a severe problem with putting FF out before FS.

Here's an excerpt from Bill Von Novak's article on exit separation:
http://www.dropzone.com/content/Detailed/628.html
.
"Another issue that has become more important lately is exit order. Some places still put freeflyers out first, and that doesn't make much sense. In 30kt uppers, a belly flyer who leaves 10 seconds and gets out after freeflyer will open 100 feet from him, but if the belly flyer goes first and the freeflyer leaves the same time he will open 2200 feet from the freeflyer. RW groups, since they are in freefall longer, drift farther downwind before opening. It seems like a no-brainer to choose an exit order that used this to your advantage and increased, rather than decreased, separation distances. You can certainly wait 20 seconds after the freefly groups before the belly groups exit if there is some other reason why the freeflyers have to exit first, but at most DZ's it's hard to ensure that 20 seconds, especially since waiting so long almost guarantees long spots or a goaround."

Also, you will want to review this article about exit order.
http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html

It is is based directly on the output of John Kallend's freefall simulation program set found at:
http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

I agree with you, after reading those articles a month ago i become even more concerned about the exit order. It is dangerous but is the way it is done at the dropzones i have visited in the uk.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[vt1977 0]

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I agree with you, after reading those articles a month ago i become even more concerned about the exit order. It is dangerous but is the way it is done at the dropzones i have visited in the uk.

It seems to vary from DZ to DZ in the UK. Nethers put FF out AFTER FS, Headcorn still put FF out first.

Vicki

[phoenixlpr 0]

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It seems to vary from DZ to DZ in the UK. Nethers put FF out AFTER FS, Headcorn still put FF out first.

You can see that the right information is flowing slow.

[bigway 4]

Headcorn, Langar and hinton, and i am pretty sure with Emmo at weston that there too will be putting FF out first. I like Emos logic but Bill's seems more investigated.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[popsjumper 2]

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Headcorn, Langar and hinton, and i am pretty sure with Emmo at weston that there too will be putting FF out first. I like Emos logic but Bill's seems more investigated.

What is Emmo/Emo's logic?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bigway 4]

That was just there in case he reads it.

He explained it to me one day but i am kind of closed minded to listening to logic about putting out FF first as a christian would be to becoming a mormon.

Emo, is a great bloke, excellent experience and a stand up guy. I really was welcomed to the dropzone by him when i first arrived and he made the transition very easy for me.
This though, i never really agreed on.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[Yossarian 0]

i dont think i have a bad attitude, im one of the most conservative canopy pilots i know, sorry i didnt specify i just meant that i would get there sooner, didnt mean they should let me land there now as they probably shouldnt. the fact ive met all the other requirements for landing there (cant remember the last time i landed further than 25ft awayt from the target etc) doesnt mean anything, my lower jump numbers inevitably mean that i haven't experienced all the variables encountered with different landing conditions. please dont make assumptions about my attitude based on a few posts.

[Yossarian 0]

as far as i can work out its that at hinton the only serious freefliers are also those who jump very small canopies and open low, as well as what i mentioned about the close calls, i might be a little out though, had the conversation a while ago

[bigway 4]

You are just eager. It is a long walk!!

People should not make personal judgements on others characters because they have different ideas or lack of education in the topic being discussed.

Dont worry about posts like that. Just enjoy the walk.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bigway 4]

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as far as i can work out its that at hinton the only serious freefliers are also those who jump very small canopies and open low, as well as what i mentioned about the close calls, i might be a little out though, had the conversation a while ago

Yeah there is nobody at hinton that freefly and jump small canopies.
Most of the boys jump 114 and above. I have never come across anybody who freefly at hinton and pull low either.

First group of freefliers out pull no lower than 3k.
The boys that freefly at Hinton are also pretty good these days.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[popsjumper 2]

Sounds like more concern for vertical separation than horizontal...I was afraid someone was going to say that.

Give him this scenario:
FS drifts over top of FF.
FS guy has high-speed mal.

Give me horizontal over vertical any and EVERY day.
If vertical was more important why not have group deployments at sequential altitudes with no tracking?

Bad question, I know, but you get my point, right?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bigway 4]

I now remeber part of his logic.....

It wa that freefliers generally have smaller canopies. (that was only part of it.)

When he explained it, he did diagrams for me and it made sense, just not as much sense as FS being out first.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[popsjumper 2]

I'll go with physics over logic....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Stumpy 256]

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Bigway is rigth, I'm talking about having to pull a $-Way RW formation to get the FS1 qualification before I FF. It kind of bothers me a bit, I've done my AFF in belly, got about 15 coached RW jumps, 1 hours in the wind tunnel practising belly skills and done few jumps in formation, actually I did once 9 points in a 3-way. Nowehere as far as I know such competence in RW is required to FF, that's is a lot of money in coaching. I don't say RW is not fun but it's not what I want to do.

If your experience is what you say it is then you should be able to pull out a 6 or 7 point 4-way no problem. When i did mine i had 3 people who offred to jump with me (paid their own slots) someone else videod it and the CCI cleared it as he knew the experience level of the jumpers. The whole thing cost me 1 jump ticket on jump 50, after which i was free to do what i liked. I had paid for some coach jumps prior to that as well which were worthwhile.
Get to know some of the RW flyers and ask nicely! it makes the world of difference. Hell if i am in the area I will help you get it and pay my own slot. What goes around comes around.

And if at the end of the day you feel like a DZ is ripping you off making you pay 4 slots yadda yadda yadda, then vote with your feet and do it somewhere else.!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[bigway 4]

The thing is, the original poster holds an awesome sit, awesome exit, awerness and heading, transitions....

Should he have to go for FS1? His qualification in france is the same, why does he have to do it here again?

I did it when i first arrived only by fluke of doing a 4-way with some lads.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[Yossarian 0]

well not so much low as lower than most, im just going on what i was told, but the freefliers i know at hinton all jump 120's and smaller (which is what i mean by small canopy, i know many of you will disagree as there are many smaller canopies out there, but for the sake of this logic and a conversation i cant remember fully thats what i mean) the fact it when it was explained to me it made sense with particular reference to local conditions, with my limited understanding at the time anyway. whos the new cci now then? has emo gone to weston?

and with regards to the walk, im a lazy student, its in my nature to do as little physical work as possible, one of the reasons i call skydiving a sport so i can sound slightly less lazy

[popsjumper 2]

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The thing is, the original poster holds an awesome sit, awesome exit, awerness and heading, transitions....

Should he have to go for FS1? His qualification in france is the same, why does he have to do it here again?

My vote is yes...do it.
Rules are there for a reason and, given enough incentive, they could be changed/upgraded/eliminated in the future through the relevant governing bodies.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Stumpy 256]

Yes he should. Firstly its the regs here - if he wants to jump here he has to play by them end of story. If he doesn't i suggest he complains to the BPA rather than moaning here and see what they say ( I have a fair idea )
Secondly, if he is as good as you say he is then it should be no problem. 1 jump, finito, finished, done.
If he can't, he SHOULD be taking a couple of steps back, get his belly skills up to par because they may save his ass, and help him enjoy skydiving. A 4-point 4-way is NOT serious 4-way, it just shows bare minimum skills.

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I did it when i first arrived only by fluke of doing a 4-way with some lads.

You would be surprised how many people do it like this, quite legally.

The point i agree with is that if the french have exactly the same system but its not recognised here, then the BPA should be looking to align with that but thats a whole other kettle of fish.

Never try to eat more than you can lift