Is it really necessary the FS1 b4 you freefly?

[bigway 4]

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There's a reason we do AFF on our bellies. It's easier to fly that way, and easier to learn all the other stuff (like altitude awareness) in a stable body position - which a sit is not.

I am not 100% on this but i think in New zealand they have started a new AFF down in Queenstown. It is a 16 level AFF course all with one instructor and has freeflying exits as part of levels.

This is what i have been told by a student from there but am not sure how correct it is. From the video i saw, it seemed correct.

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[AFFI 0]

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Some freeflyers say that you don't need to learn any belly flying to FF as it is a complete different discipline with different skills required.

Makes sense to me -

Freeflyers deploy on their heads right? Who needs to deploy on your belly when you have a “freefly” rig (pretty soon they will have their own “freefly” canopy) and a “freefly” suit and get all the babes cuz they are the cream that rises to the top – right?

After cutting away freeflyers don’t arch away from a cutaway, no need to if you’re a freeflyer - they just go back into a sit and deploy the reserve from a sit, or maybe carving around thier freebag, right?

Freeflyers never ever need to associate (in the air) with other skydivers right? Well of course except on a hybrid, and even then the really accomplished freeflyers don’t need to fly on their bellies at all right? I mean, they are so ultimately bass-ass that they just make the hybrid happen without ever flying on their belly right?

And lets not forget the wholly bas-ass freeflyers that get their instructional rating totally in a head down orientation, wooing their evaluators with their superior uniqueness, right?

Freeflyers certainly dont need to track, right?

Are freeflyers even expected to stand in line at the grocery store or pay taxes? Of course not! They are freeflyers… Red light? no worries, I'm a "freeflyer"...


Right? Huh? Hmm? RIGHT????

[AFFI 0]

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Hey,
Just to let you know, I was asking the question in that manner so it would get good educated answers.

Bill is uneducated in his answers concerning skydiving?

Ummmmmm, ok...

[billvon 2,396]

>It is a 16 level AFF course all with one instructor and has
>freeflying exits as part of levels.

We do something similar here. We have two exits which are intentionally unstable, intended to teach recovery from an unstable exit. We also have a few 'freefly' manuevers (backloops) thrown in, mainly to teach the same thing. But they are primarily intended to teach recovery to a safe position for deployment.

[bigway 4]

He is talking about FS1 not just basic belly flying skills.
He is talking about being able to pull out 4 point 4ways in order to gain this qualification. If you think FS1 is a must before learning to freefly can you tell me why it is not in the states?

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[bigway 4]

Bill, in now way did i imply you were not educated in your answers, i was trying to say those were the answers i was looking for but someone seems to have it in their head that i am having a go at you.

This aff course has actual sit fly exits.

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[AFFI 0]

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>It is a 16 level AFF course all with one instructor and has
>freeflying exits as part of levels.

We do something similar here. We have two exits which are intentionally unstable, intended to teach recovery from an unstable exit. We also have a few 'freefly' manuevers (backloops) thrown in, mainly to teach the same thing. But they are primarily intended to teach recovery to a safe position for deployment.

Bill, is that en educated reply?

Cuz I was just about to make the same points - we have an 18 jump program that does include a sit exit for exactly the uneducated response you gave...

Maybe I am just jealous of the "freeflyers" since I am just a meager instructor who only freeflys occasionally.

I'm not in a bad mood, just tired of the ...

[bigway 4]

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>It is a 16 level AFF course all with one instructor and has
>freeflying exits as part of levels.

We do something similar here. We have two exits which are intentionally unstable, intended to teach recovery from an unstable exit. We also have a few 'freefly' manuevers (backloops) thrown in, mainly to teach the same thing. But they are primarily intended to teach recovery to a safe position for deployment.

Bill, is that en educated reply?

Cuz I was just about to make the same points - we have an 18 jump program that does include a sit exit for exactly the uneducated response you gave...

Maybe I am just jealous of the "freeflyers" since I am just a meager instructor who only freeflys occasionally.

I'm not in a bad mood, just tired of the ...

Who ever said Bills answer was uneducated?

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[wmw999 2,120]

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He is talking about being able to pull out 4 point 4ways in order to gain this qualification. If you think FS1 is a must before learning to freefly can you tell me why it is not in the states?

I did some reading (not enough, probably). It's designed to get one pretty comfortable in a 4-way environment, including repeated tracking, movement up, down, backwards, forwards, sideways, with a belly orientation -- trust me, that's less confusing than adding other orientations.

And that 4-point 4-way -- you're probably doing it with 3 experienced instructors, at least according to where I looked it up. That means that you can stay in one place and make motions in a planned direction. That's a good thing.

That said, why doesn't the US have the same requirement? Well, we don't have the same programs. The whole orientation of the BPA is more controlling than USPA.

But the skills I saw outlined in the program seemed like awfully nice ones to have when you introduce more degrees of motion to skydiving.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bigway 4]

Sure,

The other 3 jumpers are only experienced instructors if you can afford the £80 for the attempt at the dive.

If not they are your friends who may have just passed FS1.

It is not the easiest 4 way dive either. You are the one to do all the work.

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[billvon 2,396]

>Bill, in now way did i imply you were not educated in your answers . . .

No problem. And just to make it clear, I _don't_ have all the answers. I do think a certain degree of belly skill is a good idea before proceeding onto freeflying, which most student programs reinforce. You can belly fly without freefly skills; you can't freefly without belly skills.

[bob.dino 0]

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I think you should learn the basics, FS1 is not the basics, FS1 is learning to fly 4way.

Based on what I've read here, FS1 is the very very basics. If you can't do a simple 4-pt 4-way in 60sec of freefall time, you don't have a huge amount of control over your body on your belly.

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I think England is the only country to have this system put in place

Australia requires you complete the RW training table (colloquially known as 'B-rels') before obtaining a B Licence. You also need a B Licence to start freeflying.

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Times have changed, the sport has evolved, Freeflying is part of the sport and rules should change to encourage freeflying not making it harder and costing more.

You still gotta learn to walk before you can run.

[bigway 4]

I know the B-rels, we had them in new zealand, not any more. Very different from FS1 though.

The 4 point 4-way is not as simple as it sounds.
I know a heavy guy who has spent thousands of pounds on coaching. Cause he falls a lot faster than the other three he failed many times. Spent hundreds on tunnell time, as well as coaching and many slots for coaches. Just cause he has a faster fall rate and can not slow down, does that mean he can not freefly?

FS1 may be simple to people with 200 odd jumps but not for someone that is sub 100 jumps.

If you ddid not want to do rel work would you spend $800 AU (average) on learning how to complete a 4 way? would you be happy to be forced to do that?

I think a simple B-rel table would be ideal but FS1 is a bit more advanced.

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[billvon 2,396]

>The 4 point 4-way is not as simple as it sounds.

It really is. It's not an onerous requirement. Get four people, three of whom have done 4-way before, and you should have no problem. You don't need coaches, but you also can't do it with four people with 11 jumps each.

For an easy way to do this, go to any boogie. At Rantoul, we put up low timer 4-ways all day. You basically get free coaching and one coach. Just find two other people who have a few hundred jumps and you're set. (Or just wait for such people to show up.)

>Just cause he has a faster fall rate and can not slow down, does
>that mean he can not freefly?

It means he will have a great deal more difficulty. If he can't slow himself down on his belly he's sure as hell not going to be able to slow himself down in a sit. Fortunately, many of the same tricks (jumpsuit size, wings) work in both cases.

[bigway 4]

I think you will find this needs to be signed off by a BPA CCI and you will also find the majority of people doing this jump will expect there slot paid. Especially hard for the students who do not know anybody yet.

I myself have my FS1, i also think i may be one of the only people in the uk to video my own FS1.

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[bob.dino 0]

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The 4 point 4-way is not as simple as it sounds.

I've downloaded the BPA FS Training Manual (4MB Word file), and based on p39, the FS1 jump is a Stairstep, Satellite, Star, Donut. All in-facing, with the candidate in the Inside Centre position.

To make it easier, I'd replace the Donut with an Open Accordian. Other than that, it's about as simple as it gets. For the exit as IC, all you have to do is fall out of the airplane.

The Aussie B-rel table is arguably trickier - you have to do three 3- or 4-ways, including a 3-point 4-way which you have to organise yourself.

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FS1 may be simple to people with 200 odd jumps but not for someone that is sub 100 jumps.

It's not supposed to be simple. It's supposed to be challenging but achievable.

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If you ddid not want to do rel work would you spend $800 AU (average) on learning how to complete a 4 way? would you be happy to be forced to do that?

Not a fair comparison. Learning the basics of relative work teaches you skills that are very useful when you start freeflying - skills such as tracking, awareness, the ability to fly relative to others. All that good stuff.

[billvon 2,396]

>you will also find the majority of people doing this jump will
>expect there slot paid.

Hmm, I guess the UK is a little different than the US then.

[bigway 4]

You are right there. It is, Skydiving is very expensive here. At my dz it is around $38 US dollars and you are lucky if you get 12k.

not always, but yes, i think the whole vibe in the US is different as to here in the uk. Instructors need to make money with such bad weather conditions so i can understand it. Dont like it but understand it.

Bob.dino, i respect what you are saying.
I just don't agree that they should have to pass it before being allowed to jlearn to freefly.
However, i do think tracking skills should be enforced first as well as a few other skils, just not neccessary the way it is done here.

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[damion75 0]

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He is talking about FS1 not just basic belly flying skills.

FS1 is instruction in fall rate control, forward and backward movement, side slides, turns, tracking and diving to pin. And safety. And safety. Did I mention safety?

What's not basic about that? These are core skills and anyone unable to complete them doesn't deserve to be in the sky with other people. Period. I can't imagine any self respecting freeflyer would jump with someone without those basic skills either.

As for having trouble finding people of sufficient FS quality to fly their own slots on an FS1 dive who is happy to help a jnr guy/girl progress? That says more about the DZ than the progression requirements to me.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[TrickyDicky 0]

I dont know where you're getting this idea that to get FS "on the cheap" you need to risk it by having 3 people that just got their FS1, else you have to pay for "good" people.

This isnt the case where I jump. When theres an FS1 going, normally all the other coaches are more than happy to do it for free (the only slot paid for is the coach, like you've been doing the rest of the time). Otherwise, the students coach will find people he knows will definatly be there. Their payment in the form of beer is normally more than enough. Im sure if no one liked you, you'd probably have to pay for them.

Dino: that 4-way dive from the manual is just a suggested dive. I know some people who dont agree with it (and dont do it). But it is meant as a demonstration of basic skills and your real learning doesnt start until you have FS1.

And like Damian said, its all about safety. People have failed because of a poor track on break off.

To the origional topic, FS1 is a good thing to have before FF1, and its something Ive seen discussed many many times. I know people who havent got FS1, but freefly. I also think the cause of alot of the frustration and low timers leaving the sport is through their lack of coaching and just staying on solos trying to teach themselves to freefly. Then they never get to jump with their friends and just get frustrated and bored.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[mjosparky 3]

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The 4 point 4-way is not as simple as it sounds.

You can take 3 other jumpers with resonable abilities and use a folding chair for the fourth and turn 4 points. If not, you should not be FF.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bigway 4]

I have seen people fail FS1 a few times and each time they paid all 4 slots.
As another poster said, i guess it comes down to people on the dz and if they want to pay their own slots or not.

There are many people out there who i will go sit flying with that do not have FS1.
You do not need FS1 to sit fly. You need the relevant skills to be safe, but it does not have to be in the form of FS1.
FS1 is not the be all and end all of safety.

But hey, it is the way it is required in the UK so it is what you need to do in the UK.

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[Yossarian 0]

its true the requirement is 4-points, but thats from the days when 8k was the norm and you had to launch from a cessna. now very few ccis will sign you off with less than 6 or 7 and a swoop to pin is required (not always party of the 4-way though) most instructors will also require you to do a few 3-ways of at least 5 points from 10k or above. one of my 3-ways was an unlinked exit with me having to leave later to complete a swoop to pin. for my 4-way i had to find friends to do it with me as i couldnt afford 4-slots, ended up with one 2000 jumper as the coach, and the rest of us had less than 200 post qualification jumps between us, think we got 7 points which i thought was very impressive.

i think the reason hinton is the way it is because there were some close calls in the past with new freefliers attempting a sit that was basically a back-track coming very close to rw groups. i personally agree with it, its annoying because its goin to take some time to get to 100 jumps with my budget, but ive seen how fast people can go

[bigway 4]

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i think the reason hinton is the way it is because there were some close calls in the past with new freefliers attempting a sit that was basically a back-track coming very close to rw groups

When was this??

You have been in the sport for a year? Hinton has had these rules since i first went there and that was a year ago this month. I think the rules will change at Hinton soon now that there is a new CCI. I hope they willl start letting RW out first instead of freefliers and also hope that they will abolish their 100 jump freefly rule and the rule that you must only atempt a sit with an ff1 coach and not atempt it solo. There are ways around that rule there but it is still in their rule book.

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[meistwer 0]

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He is talking about FS1 not just basic belly flying skills.
He is talking about being able to pull out 4 point 4ways in order to gain this qualification. If you think FS1 is a must before learning to freefly can you tell me why it is not in the states?

Bigway is rigth, I'm talking about having to pull a $-Way RW formation to get the FS1 qualification before I FF. It kind of bothers me a bit, I've done my AFF in belly, got about 15 coached RW jumps, 1 hours in the wind tunnel practising belly skills and done few jumps in formation, actually I did once 9 points in a 3-way. Nowehere as far as I know such competence in RW is required to FF, that's is a lot of money in coaching. I don't say RW is not fun but it's not what I want to do.

Blue ones