DrewEckhardt 0 #51 July 6, 2006 QuoteHere we go again... Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone, especially a brand new graduate. The requirement is waiverable by the S&TA. Since your skills are known by the DZO and he has a working relationship with the S&TA you shouldn't have any problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #52 July 7, 2006 If my SL jumps back in 2000 didn't cost 35-40 a hop I probably wouldn't have gotten in to the sport. As it was, I could pretty much jump as much as I wanted at those prices. If I screwed up, I didn't care. It was cheap and I was out hanging at the DZ and having fun. I took 2 years off when moving to Florida to save up enough cash for gear and AFF, tried to quit but was already addicted from my SL jumping. The sport is expensive to get into and that's the number 1 reason most people I know who've tried it and liked it never went any further than their first tandem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #53 July 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe USPA changed the requirements for people who can jump with students cleared for self supervision... You no longer need a coach rating - just a D and you can do a 4way with up to two students... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Here we go again... Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone, especially a brand new graduate. If someone, especially a DZ regular whose skills are known to the DZO, has proven himself and wants to jump with the new guy, why impose artificial requirements which have NOTHING to do with the actual safety of everyone involved? Cheers, Jon S. It does have a proven effect on the safety of an operation. Why are you so resistant to a "D" licence? Why resistant to a coach rating? If you say money, you're argument is all washed up? Afraid you might learn something?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #54 July 7, 2006 QuoteWhy are you so resistant to a "D" licence? Why resistant to a coach rating? I agree with alot of what your saying JP, but I also question certain aspects of USPA's rating/licensing/fees. I don't have the statics, but lets say there are 3000 ratings holders that renew each year. $20 to renew a rating equals $60,000 in generated revenue for rating renewals. The IRM is updated every two years? Other than the IRM, which we have to pay for as well, which we are required to have as ratings holders, what does USPA provide it's ratings holders? If the IRM is updated every two years, thats $120,000 in renewal fees for a manual that we have to buy as well? Seems kind of a large sum to pay and a minimal return on the investment as ratings holders. I'm not disputing that USPA, as a group member organization doesn't do alot for the sport, like dealing with the FAA, providing liability insurance, etc. But I would expect the funds for those things to come out of our basic member renewals, ie, from everyones pocket, not just instructors. As ratings holder we are being asked to pay more than non-ratings holders, and I simply ask, what do we get in return for our additional payment beyond a new IRM (which we have to pay for as well) for paying to renew our ratings each year? That is about the money. If my only instructional goal was to help RW skills of cleared to self supervise skydivers, I probably wouldn't get a Coach rating. But thats only my personal experience/philosophy, some of the best teachers I have seen in the sport have no ratings at all. Same goes for the B, C and D licenses.........Are you going to tell me that an A license jumper with 2000 skydives is less safe, or less deserving to coach a self supervised student than a 500 jump D license holder who has logged 2 night jumps? I'm not saying all my points are absolutes, or that my view is the only right one, but I see alot of unneccessary expenditures in ratings and manuals, which would be okay, if we could clearly see where the money is going and what benefit we, as ratings holders get from paying that additional $20 each year as a group. Okay, rant off....lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #55 July 7, 2006 Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because jump numbers are just raw statistics. It is more important for you to demonstrate the list of skills required to earn a D license. Also, your D license makes you more credible if your skills are ever questioned in court. Quit making excuses and write the "D" exam! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #56 July 7, 2006 QuoteHere we go again... Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone, especially a brand new graduate. Because you only have an A license. You have enough for a D but did you do everything that is requried for a D? If you only have an A license and 800 jumps - they could be all solo's. The S&TA used to and I believe still can waive it if you really are qualified to jump with an unlicensed jumper. Why don't you have a D license? jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #57 July 7, 2006 QuoteI'm not disputing that USPA, as a group member organization doesn't do alot for the sport, like dealing with the FAA, providing liability insurance, etc. But I would expect the funds for those things to come out of our basic member renewals, ie, from everyones pocket, not just instructors. The Group membership does not pay for itself. It not just instructor renewals that is paying the way, its also individual memberships. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #58 July 7, 2006 QuoteThe Group membership does not pay for itself. It not just instructor renewals that is paying the way, its also individual memberships. I'm not clear on what your saying here. Ratings holders also pay indivual membership renew fees like everyone else. I understand that to do all the lobbying that USPA does that they need a staff, and to pay salaries, that's all well and good. I don't dispute that at all, and if group memebership and individual membership renewal fees pay for all of that, then great, I have no problem with that. What I am disputing is "What does USPA do for it's ratings holders, beyond issuing a required to buy IRM, for that additional $20 "fee" each year? My answer thus far is nothing. Who knows, maybe the answer is that the $60,000 a year in ratings renewal income is used to pay someones salary that is specifically (and solely) charged with the admin and updating of ratings, including office supply costs for new licenses with ratings printed on them." While I would say it's excessive in cost, atleast that would provide some concrete example of where that money is going each year, because it's not going back to the instructors in the form of additional training aids, videos, seminars, etc. That's all I am questioning, where does the $20 per rating holder renewal fee go? -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #59 July 7, 2006 QuoteThat's all I am questioning, where does the $20 per rating holder renewal fee go? Valid question. I would ask your regional director or a National director in your area. There is a BOD meeting next weekend and maybe they could find out for you, if you ask them. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #60 July 7, 2006 I'l probably see our Reg Director this week at the DZ, I'll ask. Edit to add, I don't consider the USPA to be some sinister organization, headed by Dr. Evil. I think USPA does alot of good. That said, I also think they also have a "show me the money" attitude about ratings and fees. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #61 July 7, 2006 ...Why are you so resistant to a "D" licence? Why resistant to a coach rating? If you say money, you're argument is all washed up? Afraid you might learn something? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Money is a minor issue. The fee I'll pay to buy that "D" (for which I qualified years ago) would buy another jump. Due to family priorities, I average fewer than 30-40 jumps per year. It matters. Likewise for a "coach" rating. It will require the exchange of money, above and beyond the cost of jump tickets, reserve repacks, and other expenses associated with DZ trips. After I spend this money for these trinkets, I will be no more qualified to take a recent AFF graduate up for a two-way than I am now. I can do it safely. However, because of recently-enacted rules, I can't do it without running afoul of USPA "recommendations." If the sport has improved demonstrably since these rules were implemented, I'd like to see the evidence. Meanwhile, we're talking about new jumpers wanting to fit in and be accepted, and at the same time we're imposing obstacles on experienced jumpers who wish to jump with these people. By the way, does this "coach" rating need to be renewed every year? Is there a fee for this? If so, it would be interesting to find out how many "coaches" allow their status to wither away after the initial rush of qualifying for the rating. If their services are in demand, does this mean that there are plenty of new jumpers who are paying extra for someone to jump with them, even though I'll do it for free? Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #62 July 7, 2006 >After I spend this money for these trinkets, I will be no more >qualified to take a recent AFF graduate up for a two-way than I am >now. That _may_ be true. By getting those ratings you have proved it is true. Alternatively, you can prove it to a local S+TA and have a go at it without any money at all. I did not know much more about teaching AFF before I took the AFF JCC. But after the course, I proved that I could do it - which can be important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #63 July 7, 2006 Because you only have an A license. You have enough for a D but did you do everything that is requried for a D?... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I met all of the freefall requirements many years ago. All that's left is the take the test, and perhaps jump into a pool with a canopy over my head and survive. (Is that still required?) ...If you only have an A license and 800 jumps - they could be all solo's... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Well, I DO have a lot of solos. I'm not AFF material, but I can jump safely in large groups. I may not belong on the dive because I can't guarantee I'll be in my slot at the right time, but if I am on the load I won't hurt you. One reason I don't fly well enough to make Jack Jeffries' Rolodex is because when I was an intermediate jumper I spent a lot of time doing solos or small-ways with newbies because the best people on the DZ only jumped with each other. It was rare that I was the least experienced guy on the load (without being made to feel I was wasting everyone's time.) My learning curve was slow, in part because I couldn't jump often, and in part because when I could jump I could not take advantage of much of the talent walking around the DZ. ...The S&TA used to and I believe still can waive it if you really are qualified to jump with an unlicensed jumper... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Fine, if he's around. But why can't the DZO make that call on his own? By the way, I'm not talking about visiting an out-of-state DZ where they don't know me and trying to get on a load with several recent AFF grads who barely have 10 jumps each. I'm referring to activities at the home DZ where the DZO knows what to expect of me. Why don't you have a D license? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've never been in a situation where I needed one. If I ever really need a "D" I'll buy one. There is also an element of protest. The requirements are artificial, designed to make things look good on paper rather than provide any enhancement of safety issues. There is no practical reason to require a "D" for such things as an instructor rating, PRO rating, etc. I believe that if I can learn what I need to know to teach and/or JM students, I should qualify for the rating. If I can meet the accuracy standards necessary for a PRO rating, I should get the rating. If my flying skills are good enough to compete at the Nationals, I should be able to compete. The "D" license is irrelevant. These requirements appear to be little more than an effort to bully people into buying the "D". Last week I made my second demo, into a reasonably tight area roped off on the shore of a pond, in front of 36,000 people. I nailed the "X", and had been invited on the dive because the organizer was aware of my accuracy skills. If I had a "D" and a PRO, would I have landed any closer? Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 8 #64 July 7, 2006 Quote...the increasing influence of the "mandatory AAD" nazies... Did I miss something? Aren't there only like 2 or 3 DZs in all of the US where you actually HAVE TO have an AAD to jump there? Now if you want to talk about the general impression amongst skydivers that you should have an AAD... and I'm not saying an AAD is a bad thing, I've got a Cypres in both of my rigs... but as an up jumper, you're still free to choose. As for currency... well, you don't have to be a serious addict that's out at the DZ most every weekend for years on end... like me... ... but I don't think y'all can be a once in awhile "jumper" like a once in awhile "skier" or "snowboarder" e.g. half a dozen times or less a year and be safe to yourself... unless maybe at one point during your jump carrer you racked up hundreds or thousands of jumps and then went into a 30 or 40 jump a year mode.... JMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #65 July 7, 2006 A good "relative safety" question arises: Is a skydiver doing 25 jumps a year under a lightly loaded canopy (Manta 288, Sabre 230), safer than a skydiver doing only 100 jumps a year under a VX99 cross-braced canopy? What are the historical injury statistics like? Fatality statistics? You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #66 July 7, 2006 Quote ...The S&TA used to and I believe still can waive it if you really are qualified to jump with an unlicensed jumper... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Fine, if he's around. But why can't the DZO make that call on his own? If he's around? I don't see where the S&TA has to waive it every time you want to do it. Just have him waive it off on it the one time with an understanding you can work with any grad and you should be good to go. Also if the DZO is cool with it, I don't see that the USPA police are going to bust down your door if you're jumping with grads with his permission but not the S&TA's. Considering the DZO can fire the S&TA, I doubt the ST&A would put up a stink that he wasn't consulted in that case either. I think the entire issue is being blown out of proportion. The coach rating is a joke anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 8 #67 July 7, 2006 QuoteA good "relative safety" question arises: Is a skydiver doing 25 jumps a year under a lightly loaded canopy (Manta 288, Sabre 230), safer than a skydiver doing only 100 jumps a year under a VX99 cross-braced canopy? If a skydiver under a lightly... or highly... loaded canopy fraps-in in the woods, does he... or she... still make a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #68 July 7, 2006 QuoteAfter I spend this money for these trinkets, I will be no more qualified to take a recent AFF graduate up for a two-way than I am now. I can do it safely. However, because of recently-enacted rules, I can't do it without running afoul of USPA "recommendations." I was very impressed with the instructors who evaluated me to be a coach, and the instructors who evaluated me to be an AFF-I... I learned a lot from them. The ratings were worth every penny in what I learned from my instructors. However, I also evaluated a few coach candidates who were pencil whipped thru a 4 hour coach course from a course director I would not recommend anymore, and after I gave them automatic unstats (fail) for a few things, I noticed a trend... I asked the candidates if they even knew what "whole part whole" and other basic USPA adopted teaching concepts were from their class, since after all they were auto-unsats if not followed... When I realized they were not taught this, I went back, taught them what I learned, and they did MUCH better, not just following book guidelines, but teaching me (as a pretend student) the concepts in a way I understood - proving that some of the USPA teaching concepts are worth a damn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #69 July 8, 2006 QuoteOne reason I don't fly well enough to make Jack Jeffries' Rolodex is because when I was an intermediate jumper I spent a lot of time doing solos or small-ways with newbies because the best people on the DZ only jumped with each other. It was rare that I was the least experienced guy on the load (without being made to feel I was wasting everyone's time.) My learning curve was slow, in part because I couldn't jump often, and in part because when I could jump I could not take advantage of much of the talent walking around the DZ. Sounds to me like it's time to pay it forward. Stop bitching about the rating and get it and go out there and teach some low timers. I've found that because I was a bad student, I teach better. Why not get rid of all the licenses and ratings and let eveyone do what they want to do? There is a progression to earning ratings and licenses. I for one agree with Travis. I learned every time I was up for getting a rating or going up to the next license level.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #70 July 8, 2006 ...Stop bitching about the rating and get it and go out there and teach some low timers... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've been doing this for years. Since these new rules were enacted, I'm now officially considered "unqualified" to do what I had been doing all along. ...Why not get rid of all the licenses and ratings and let eveyone do what they want to do?... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hmmm... Good idea. Seriously, there may be a valid purpose to the license/ratings thing, but at times it seems these trinkets are assigned more priority than they deserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #71 July 9, 2006 Do you know what the "part/whole/part" concept is? How many items should be discussed for improvement after each skydive? Is there a limit? Did you even ever take the BIC? There is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #72 July 9, 2006 Quote There is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers. $50 a dive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Thanatos340 1 #73 July 9, 2006 QuoteThere is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers. I agree completely. But I think what his point is that he Cant even Jump with these people (Off AFF but not yet A Licensed) under the current rules with out a waiver from the S&TA. Wouldn’t him going and laying Base for someone be better and teach that new Jumper more than them just doing a Solo because they cant afford a Coach?? This sport is dying right now. The Numbers are dropping like crazy. The fact that once a student graduates AFF they still have to PAY a Coach if they want to jump with someone is a contributing factor I think (Yes, There are Lots of other reason, But this one isnt helping). The cost is already so high to get through AFF.. and then you get pay $50 to $80 a jump not including gear rental if you want to jump with someone else?? When I graduated AFF, There was Line of people including Airman1270 waiting to go make a jump with me. Now there is a Line of Coaches waiting to get Paid at many DZ`s. I just recently went though a very intensive 3 day course to get my coach rating. It was well worth it and I’m glad I got it, But I do hate to see people like John (Airman1270) who was there for me when I graduated AFF ready to take me up and make a jump with me with no expectation of anything other than giving back to the sport told they are not qualified to do that anymore. I got my rating specifically so I could go make a Jump with resent AFF grads at no cost because when I graduated, There were people there to do that for me.. Yes I learned a lot in the course about how to present the information and what and how things should be taught.. But the old-timers still have a lot to offer. Just because they didn’t drop $175 for a course and $20 more for the rating (And don’t forget those evaluation jumps where you are paying your slot and your evaluator slot.. so add another $100 to the cost of getting the rating) doesn’t mean they should not be able go out do drill dives or lay base and turn a few points with newbies especially when the alternative is for the newbie to be out doing solo`s cause no one is RATED to jump with them or they cant quite afford a Coach. Just my worthless opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cloudi 0 #74 July 9, 2006 Coach ratings are nice if you can afford one, but I agree that experienced up-jumpers have so much to offer newbies, rating or not. I benefited greatly from jumpers who went with me in my "extreme" newbie days (still a newbie, after all!). Believe it or not, many newbies have the ability to know who is full of shit and who can actually offer them something. For the one's who can't distinguish the difference, there are plenty of instructors who will step in and let them know. These kind souls may not be able to offer formal instruction, but they can certainly bring a fresh jumper to the next level and still be safe. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #75 July 9, 2006 Who says you need to charge anyone to jump with them... I got my coach rating - and I covered my own slot on most of my coach jumps... Still - it is very rare I ask for money to jump with someone, and most of the time I refuse the gratuity AFF students offer and suggest they spend it on their next jump... The few I have asked for coaching fees (my slot paid) - I did because they treated me like a vendor from the start, not a friend - so I treated them like a customer, not a friend... Say "please" and I will buy my own slot and lets have fun... I went out and got the coach rating, spending the money, because I wanted the privilege to jump with people with low experience - and to do it safely... It cost less than a weekend of fun jumps... ($200 ish) My evaluators were tough - and on my first real coach jump the student tried to track under me and pull, the next he never tracked at all because at 7 grand he looked down and the ground "looked huge" and he pulled in my face... Both of those common traits in students I was ready for - because my evaluators did them to me... So for those who want to jump with students, go out, spend a bit of money to learn, show passion to teaching, then give away your jumps... The karma will come around - as it has for me... Sorry to be so strong in my belief that I sound preachy... But I agree - $23 for your slot, $23 for your coach slot, $25 for gear rental, $10 in coach gratuity - is enough to make a wannabe skydiver go home... 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LawnDart21 0 #54 July 7, 2006 QuoteWhy are you so resistant to a "D" licence? Why resistant to a coach rating? I agree with alot of what your saying JP, but I also question certain aspects of USPA's rating/licensing/fees. I don't have the statics, but lets say there are 3000 ratings holders that renew each year. $20 to renew a rating equals $60,000 in generated revenue for rating renewals. The IRM is updated every two years? Other than the IRM, which we have to pay for as well, which we are required to have as ratings holders, what does USPA provide it's ratings holders? If the IRM is updated every two years, thats $120,000 in renewal fees for a manual that we have to buy as well? Seems kind of a large sum to pay and a minimal return on the investment as ratings holders. I'm not disputing that USPA, as a group member organization doesn't do alot for the sport, like dealing with the FAA, providing liability insurance, etc. But I would expect the funds for those things to come out of our basic member renewals, ie, from everyones pocket, not just instructors. As ratings holder we are being asked to pay more than non-ratings holders, and I simply ask, what do we get in return for our additional payment beyond a new IRM (which we have to pay for as well) for paying to renew our ratings each year? That is about the money. If my only instructional goal was to help RW skills of cleared to self supervise skydivers, I probably wouldn't get a Coach rating. But thats only my personal experience/philosophy, some of the best teachers I have seen in the sport have no ratings at all. Same goes for the B, C and D licenses.........Are you going to tell me that an A license jumper with 2000 skydives is less safe, or less deserving to coach a self supervised student than a 500 jump D license holder who has logged 2 night jumps? I'm not saying all my points are absolutes, or that my view is the only right one, but I see alot of unneccessary expenditures in ratings and manuals, which would be okay, if we could clearly see where the money is going and what benefit we, as ratings holders get from paying that additional $20 each year as a group. Okay, rant off....lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #55 July 7, 2006 Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because jump numbers are just raw statistics. It is more important for you to demonstrate the list of skills required to earn a D license. Also, your D license makes you more credible if your skills are ever questioned in court. Quit making excuses and write the "D" exam! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #56 July 7, 2006 QuoteHere we go again... Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone, especially a brand new graduate. Because you only have an A license. You have enough for a D but did you do everything that is requried for a D? If you only have an A license and 800 jumps - they could be all solo's. The S&TA used to and I believe still can waive it if you really are qualified to jump with an unlicensed jumper. Why don't you have a D license? jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #57 July 7, 2006 QuoteI'm not disputing that USPA, as a group member organization doesn't do alot for the sport, like dealing with the FAA, providing liability insurance, etc. But I would expect the funds for those things to come out of our basic member renewals, ie, from everyones pocket, not just instructors. The Group membership does not pay for itself. It not just instructor renewals that is paying the way, its also individual memberships. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #58 July 7, 2006 QuoteThe Group membership does not pay for itself. It not just instructor renewals that is paying the way, its also individual memberships. I'm not clear on what your saying here. Ratings holders also pay indivual membership renew fees like everyone else. I understand that to do all the lobbying that USPA does that they need a staff, and to pay salaries, that's all well and good. I don't dispute that at all, and if group memebership and individual membership renewal fees pay for all of that, then great, I have no problem with that. What I am disputing is "What does USPA do for it's ratings holders, beyond issuing a required to buy IRM, for that additional $20 "fee" each year? My answer thus far is nothing. Who knows, maybe the answer is that the $60,000 a year in ratings renewal income is used to pay someones salary that is specifically (and solely) charged with the admin and updating of ratings, including office supply costs for new licenses with ratings printed on them." While I would say it's excessive in cost, atleast that would provide some concrete example of where that money is going each year, because it's not going back to the instructors in the form of additional training aids, videos, seminars, etc. That's all I am questioning, where does the $20 per rating holder renewal fee go? -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #59 July 7, 2006 QuoteThat's all I am questioning, where does the $20 per rating holder renewal fee go? Valid question. I would ask your regional director or a National director in your area. There is a BOD meeting next weekend and maybe they could find out for you, if you ask them. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #60 July 7, 2006 I'l probably see our Reg Director this week at the DZ, I'll ask. Edit to add, I don't consider the USPA to be some sinister organization, headed by Dr. Evil. I think USPA does alot of good. That said, I also think they also have a "show me the money" attitude about ratings and fees. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #61 July 7, 2006 ...Why are you so resistant to a "D" licence? Why resistant to a coach rating? If you say money, you're argument is all washed up? Afraid you might learn something? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Money is a minor issue. The fee I'll pay to buy that "D" (for which I qualified years ago) would buy another jump. Due to family priorities, I average fewer than 30-40 jumps per year. It matters. Likewise for a "coach" rating. It will require the exchange of money, above and beyond the cost of jump tickets, reserve repacks, and other expenses associated with DZ trips. After I spend this money for these trinkets, I will be no more qualified to take a recent AFF graduate up for a two-way than I am now. I can do it safely. However, because of recently-enacted rules, I can't do it without running afoul of USPA "recommendations." If the sport has improved demonstrably since these rules were implemented, I'd like to see the evidence. Meanwhile, we're talking about new jumpers wanting to fit in and be accepted, and at the same time we're imposing obstacles on experienced jumpers who wish to jump with these people. By the way, does this "coach" rating need to be renewed every year? Is there a fee for this? If so, it would be interesting to find out how many "coaches" allow their status to wither away after the initial rush of qualifying for the rating. If their services are in demand, does this mean that there are plenty of new jumpers who are paying extra for someone to jump with them, even though I'll do it for free? Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #62 July 7, 2006 >After I spend this money for these trinkets, I will be no more >qualified to take a recent AFF graduate up for a two-way than I am >now. That _may_ be true. By getting those ratings you have proved it is true. Alternatively, you can prove it to a local S+TA and have a go at it without any money at all. I did not know much more about teaching AFF before I took the AFF JCC. But after the course, I proved that I could do it - which can be important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #63 July 7, 2006 Because you only have an A license. You have enough for a D but did you do everything that is requried for a D?... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I met all of the freefall requirements many years ago. All that's left is the take the test, and perhaps jump into a pool with a canopy over my head and survive. (Is that still required?) ...If you only have an A license and 800 jumps - they could be all solo's... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Well, I DO have a lot of solos. I'm not AFF material, but I can jump safely in large groups. I may not belong on the dive because I can't guarantee I'll be in my slot at the right time, but if I am on the load I won't hurt you. One reason I don't fly well enough to make Jack Jeffries' Rolodex is because when I was an intermediate jumper I spent a lot of time doing solos or small-ways with newbies because the best people on the DZ only jumped with each other. It was rare that I was the least experienced guy on the load (without being made to feel I was wasting everyone's time.) My learning curve was slow, in part because I couldn't jump often, and in part because when I could jump I could not take advantage of much of the talent walking around the DZ. ...The S&TA used to and I believe still can waive it if you really are qualified to jump with an unlicensed jumper... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Fine, if he's around. But why can't the DZO make that call on his own? By the way, I'm not talking about visiting an out-of-state DZ where they don't know me and trying to get on a load with several recent AFF grads who barely have 10 jumps each. I'm referring to activities at the home DZ where the DZO knows what to expect of me. Why don't you have a D license? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've never been in a situation where I needed one. If I ever really need a "D" I'll buy one. There is also an element of protest. The requirements are artificial, designed to make things look good on paper rather than provide any enhancement of safety issues. There is no practical reason to require a "D" for such things as an instructor rating, PRO rating, etc. I believe that if I can learn what I need to know to teach and/or JM students, I should qualify for the rating. If I can meet the accuracy standards necessary for a PRO rating, I should get the rating. If my flying skills are good enough to compete at the Nationals, I should be able to compete. The "D" license is irrelevant. These requirements appear to be little more than an effort to bully people into buying the "D". Last week I made my second demo, into a reasonably tight area roped off on the shore of a pond, in front of 36,000 people. I nailed the "X", and had been invited on the dive because the organizer was aware of my accuracy skills. If I had a "D" and a PRO, would I have landed any closer? Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #64 July 7, 2006 Quote...the increasing influence of the "mandatory AAD" nazies... Did I miss something? Aren't there only like 2 or 3 DZs in all of the US where you actually HAVE TO have an AAD to jump there? Now if you want to talk about the general impression amongst skydivers that you should have an AAD... and I'm not saying an AAD is a bad thing, I've got a Cypres in both of my rigs... but as an up jumper, you're still free to choose. As for currency... well, you don't have to be a serious addict that's out at the DZ most every weekend for years on end... like me... ... but I don't think y'all can be a once in awhile "jumper" like a once in awhile "skier" or "snowboarder" e.g. half a dozen times or less a year and be safe to yourself... unless maybe at one point during your jump carrer you racked up hundreds or thousands of jumps and then went into a 30 or 40 jump a year mode.... JMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #65 July 7, 2006 A good "relative safety" question arises: Is a skydiver doing 25 jumps a year under a lightly loaded canopy (Manta 288, Sabre 230), safer than a skydiver doing only 100 jumps a year under a VX99 cross-braced canopy? What are the historical injury statistics like? Fatality statistics? You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #66 July 7, 2006 Quote ...The S&TA used to and I believe still can waive it if you really are qualified to jump with an unlicensed jumper... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Fine, if he's around. But why can't the DZO make that call on his own? If he's around? I don't see where the S&TA has to waive it every time you want to do it. Just have him waive it off on it the one time with an understanding you can work with any grad and you should be good to go. Also if the DZO is cool with it, I don't see that the USPA police are going to bust down your door if you're jumping with grads with his permission but not the S&TA's. Considering the DZO can fire the S&TA, I doubt the ST&A would put up a stink that he wasn't consulted in that case either. I think the entire issue is being blown out of proportion. The coach rating is a joke anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #67 July 7, 2006 QuoteA good "relative safety" question arises: Is a skydiver doing 25 jumps a year under a lightly loaded canopy (Manta 288, Sabre 230), safer than a skydiver doing only 100 jumps a year under a VX99 cross-braced canopy? If a skydiver under a lightly... or highly... loaded canopy fraps-in in the woods, does he... or she... still make a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #68 July 7, 2006 QuoteAfter I spend this money for these trinkets, I will be no more qualified to take a recent AFF graduate up for a two-way than I am now. I can do it safely. However, because of recently-enacted rules, I can't do it without running afoul of USPA "recommendations." I was very impressed with the instructors who evaluated me to be a coach, and the instructors who evaluated me to be an AFF-I... I learned a lot from them. The ratings were worth every penny in what I learned from my instructors. However, I also evaluated a few coach candidates who were pencil whipped thru a 4 hour coach course from a course director I would not recommend anymore, and after I gave them automatic unstats (fail) for a few things, I noticed a trend... I asked the candidates if they even knew what "whole part whole" and other basic USPA adopted teaching concepts were from their class, since after all they were auto-unsats if not followed... When I realized they were not taught this, I went back, taught them what I learned, and they did MUCH better, not just following book guidelines, but teaching me (as a pretend student) the concepts in a way I understood - proving that some of the USPA teaching concepts are worth a damn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #69 July 8, 2006 QuoteOne reason I don't fly well enough to make Jack Jeffries' Rolodex is because when I was an intermediate jumper I spent a lot of time doing solos or small-ways with newbies because the best people on the DZ only jumped with each other. It was rare that I was the least experienced guy on the load (without being made to feel I was wasting everyone's time.) My learning curve was slow, in part because I couldn't jump often, and in part because when I could jump I could not take advantage of much of the talent walking around the DZ. Sounds to me like it's time to pay it forward. Stop bitching about the rating and get it and go out there and teach some low timers. I've found that because I was a bad student, I teach better. Why not get rid of all the licenses and ratings and let eveyone do what they want to do? There is a progression to earning ratings and licenses. I for one agree with Travis. I learned every time I was up for getting a rating or going up to the next license level.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #70 July 8, 2006 ...Stop bitching about the rating and get it and go out there and teach some low timers... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've been doing this for years. Since these new rules were enacted, I'm now officially considered "unqualified" to do what I had been doing all along. ...Why not get rid of all the licenses and ratings and let eveyone do what they want to do?... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hmmm... Good idea. Seriously, there may be a valid purpose to the license/ratings thing, but at times it seems these trinkets are assigned more priority than they deserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #71 July 9, 2006 Do you know what the "part/whole/part" concept is? How many items should be discussed for improvement after each skydive? Is there a limit? Did you even ever take the BIC? There is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #72 July 9, 2006 Quote There is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers. $50 a dive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #73 July 9, 2006 QuoteThere is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers. I agree completely. But I think what his point is that he Cant even Jump with these people (Off AFF but not yet A Licensed) under the current rules with out a waiver from the S&TA. Wouldn’t him going and laying Base for someone be better and teach that new Jumper more than them just doing a Solo because they cant afford a Coach?? This sport is dying right now. The Numbers are dropping like crazy. The fact that once a student graduates AFF they still have to PAY a Coach if they want to jump with someone is a contributing factor I think (Yes, There are Lots of other reason, But this one isnt helping). The cost is already so high to get through AFF.. and then you get pay $50 to $80 a jump not including gear rental if you want to jump with someone else?? When I graduated AFF, There was Line of people including Airman1270 waiting to go make a jump with me. Now there is a Line of Coaches waiting to get Paid at many DZ`s. I just recently went though a very intensive 3 day course to get my coach rating. It was well worth it and I’m glad I got it, But I do hate to see people like John (Airman1270) who was there for me when I graduated AFF ready to take me up and make a jump with me with no expectation of anything other than giving back to the sport told they are not qualified to do that anymore. I got my rating specifically so I could go make a Jump with resent AFF grads at no cost because when I graduated, There were people there to do that for me.. Yes I learned a lot in the course about how to present the information and what and how things should be taught.. But the old-timers still have a lot to offer. Just because they didn’t drop $175 for a course and $20 more for the rating (And don’t forget those evaluation jumps where you are paying your slot and your evaluator slot.. so add another $100 to the cost of getting the rating) doesn’t mean they should not be able go out do drill dives or lay base and turn a few points with newbies especially when the alternative is for the newbie to be out doing solo`s cause no one is RATED to jump with them or they cant quite afford a Coach. Just my worthless opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #74 July 9, 2006 Coach ratings are nice if you can afford one, but I agree that experienced up-jumpers have so much to offer newbies, rating or not. I benefited greatly from jumpers who went with me in my "extreme" newbie days (still a newbie, after all!). Believe it or not, many newbies have the ability to know who is full of shit and who can actually offer them something. For the one's who can't distinguish the difference, there are plenty of instructors who will step in and let them know. These kind souls may not be able to offer formal instruction, but they can certainly bring a fresh jumper to the next level and still be safe. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #75 July 9, 2006 Who says you need to charge anyone to jump with them... I got my coach rating - and I covered my own slot on most of my coach jumps... Still - it is very rare I ask for money to jump with someone, and most of the time I refuse the gratuity AFF students offer and suggest they spend it on their next jump... The few I have asked for coaching fees (my slot paid) - I did because they treated me like a vendor from the start, not a friend - so I treated them like a customer, not a friend... Say "please" and I will buy my own slot and lets have fun... I went out and got the coach rating, spending the money, because I wanted the privilege to jump with people with low experience - and to do it safely... It cost less than a weekend of fun jumps... ($200 ish) My evaluators were tough - and on my first real coach jump the student tried to track under me and pull, the next he never tracked at all because at 7 grand he looked down and the ground "looked huge" and he pulled in my face... Both of those common traits in students I was ready for - because my evaluators did them to me... So for those who want to jump with students, go out, spend a bit of money to learn, show passion to teaching, then give away your jumps... The karma will come around - as it has for me... Sorry to be so strong in my belief that I sound preachy... But I agree - $23 for your slot, $23 for your coach slot, $25 for gear rental, $10 in coach gratuity - is enough to make a wannabe skydiver go home... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
