Robin Heid on Jumper Retention

[Airman1270 0]

Excellent reporting in the current SKYDIVING, following that real good letter on the same subject in a recent issue written by that guy in Georgia.

Remember that episode of Gilligan's Island where Gilligan is flapping some makeshift wings, hovering at treetop level? Skipper comes along; they have the following exchange:

"Gilligan, you can't fly."

"I can't?"

"No."

"Oh."

He then falls to the ground.

The sport is being suffocated by recently-enacted currency requirements, which send the message that you cannot jump safely unless you do it regularly.

Meanwhile, after years of struggling to convince people that the sport is not as dangerous as they might have believed, the increasing influence of the "mandatory AAD" nazies has resulted in a greater percentage of skydivers who have been led to believe that jumping is far more dangerous than it really is. This is the message we're marketing.

I've endured many obstacles to be a skydiver, but if the DZ's in my area ever start requiring AAD's, I will be forced to quit.

Nice work, RH.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[diablopilot 2]

Because RH is the end all be all of saftey and currency.....


That's sarcasm folks.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[PhreeZone 15]

Ohh.. you don't think the Triathlon off the Bridge was ideal?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jtval 0]

hmmm, maybe when I get my mag in 25 days I'll have a clue what you two are talking about

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[PhreeZone 15]

If you want to have some fun search on Robin's name in the BASE fourm and on Blinc.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jtval 0]

what, do you think I have nothing better to do?


...I'll go check it out

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[jtval 0]

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If you want to have some fun search on Robin's name in the BASE fourm and on Blinc.

So, it appears the he is some safety naziwho puts way too much thought into his actions.


apparently no one likes him, either. is he really that bad?

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[bhammond 0]

is he walking again , last I remember he got busted up pretty bad at the gorge... Skydiving parachute on a base jump, shows his ...... Im not going to get into it, but I see the same response, most people shake their head when they hear the name. as for jumper retention, I know several nice lovely girls/women that stoped coming to the DZ because of him specificly.... then he would call them at home asking why are you not coming out to the DZ....crying shame... yes im still pissed

[kkeenan 13]

Actually, I thought that the article had a lot of thought-provoking ideas. It's pretty common for a thread to get sidetracked by discussion of someone's personal feelings about an author. I think the article brought up a lot of points that could be discussed here.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[nicknitro71 0]

Ditto. Robin wrote a good article with some very good points. Let not the author's past side-tracks you from a possible very constructive thread.

I personally like the idea of "casual" jumpers.
My wife and I are casual SCUBA divers. We do it occasionally not a regular basis.
It would be nice if skydiving could offer the same experience other than tandems.

Of course we have to deal with the biggest issue of all first: skydivers' attitude towards potential solo students. Vet few DZ treat tandem students as potential long term skydivers "Just pay your ticket and get out of here, and by the way remember to tip your hauler and camera guy". This is the current attitude on the vast majority of medium/big DZs.

Maybe tandems are the root of the problem...I don't know...but before the tandem era to make a skydive you had to jump by yourself and S/L was in general the preferred method for first timers. A person feels much more accomplished after a simple S/L than a tandem ride: they can go home and tell that they jumped out off a plane all by themselves on their first jump.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[wmw999 2,124]

I also agree it was thought-provoking. That stands on its own. I don't know that it's all that different from a number of years ago, except that the definition of "current" and "experienced" have changed. Uncurrent was uncurrent then, too.

With static line progression you could spread your progression over more time without losing too much. They were at the dropzone longer, and since winds didn't usually die down until the end of the day there was at least some chance that they'd be around when the socializing started. Retention wasn't great, but they were still part of us, not corralled off to their own part of the dropzone.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I've said this before.This is not directed at anyone.Until we stop treating the new people like they have some kind of disease and stop forcing them to pay someone to jump with them we are going to continue to loose them.The current system is not working.The new people are not able to jump with the general population,they are not making friends,they are not hanging out after hours.Go to your DZ this weekend and pay attention to the students that are there and then see how many are there when the jumping is over.Hell,see how many of their names you know.


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[CSpenceFLY 1]

I was not around for the static line stuff but I agree totally with the socializing part.


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[wmw999 2,124]

Some dropzones seem to be encouraging this, too. Students go home; teams go home. If they're all going home and that's all who's jumping, then the staff can go home and you can close up.

Encouraging a casual friends atmosphere does a lot for the sport. Teams are steady money, but, well, some years the teams blow up, and then it's nice if they jump anyway...

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Zipp0 1]

I recently started IAD, and I do usually go home after I jump. I am slowly getting to know a few folks, and will probably hang out more as I go along. Maybe this is more of an issue at the big DZ's, because at the small/club DZ I visit, everything is pretty mellow as far as I can tell.

Zipp0

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[pincheck 0]

perhaps this is where smaller dropzones come into their own Chris. Everone tends to know each other so if you get students turning up or visiting jumper they will always find some one who will jump with them no matter what. I met a guy who saw my posts on this site who turned up after passing his AFF and getting his A. i made sure he was welcome and introduced him to others. We still do the staticline courses where we get uni students as well as everyday people doing their first jumps.

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[PrairieDoug 0]

As someone whose job involves business development, I thought the article addressed a legitimate concern and made some very compelling points. Robin did a great job of allocating responsibility for jumper retention to both the USPA (lic. requirements, etc.) and DZ owners. There is a lot that DZ's can do without waiting for the USPA bureaucracy to take action.

As others have mentioned, the author's personal history is irrelevant to the validity of the article .

Doug

[PhreeZone 15]

Lets see the currency requirements are at least 6 years old. I can't find a SIM from prior to then to see just far back they go. I do not know of a single person that quit due to going uncurrent, typically people quit when they go uncurrent and other things fill the place of skydiving with out them realizing it.

If you want to compare skydiving to scuba and tourists go for it. Most dive boats require you to show at least a minimal level of profecency if its been a while since you'be been under to show that you can still dive safely. Most also hand hold you on your dive to keep you in safe areas and above certian depths. They also are checking the gear for you and everything else to make your trip enjoyable for you and profitable to them.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Airman1270 0]

...Until we stop treating the new people like they have some kind of disease and stop forcing them to pay someone to jump with them we are going to continue to loose them.The current system is not working.The new people are not able to jump with the general population,they are not making friends...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I've always enjoyed jumping with recent graduates and other low-timers. (For one thing, they don't mind it when I screw up...)

However, in recent years there have been several times when I offered to make a dive with a novice, only to learn they were not allowed to jump with me because they didn't yet have a license and I don't hold a "coach" rating.

Whose idea was this stupid "coach" thing, anyway? Is there any evidence that the sport is better off since it was implemented?

When possible, I like to greet the first-timers after they land and share the experience with them. I notice most people are just walking away, leaving them alone on the field with their instructor and maybe the people who came out to the DZ with them. It's also nice to greet the day's batch of students, welcoming them and asking what led to their decision to come out and try this. I ususally withhold my first-jump broken ankle story until after they land, though. They have enough on their minds.

Cheers,
Jon

[slug 1]

the purpose of the coach rateing was to give a $$$ incentive to some of the experienced jumpers to jump with the new folks, that weren'y of the right gender.

New rateing, more money to USPA to cover the admin costs of the rateing, higher cost to students to learn how to skydive. DZO can tell the student "go find a coach" so he doesn't have to listen to the students wine.

USPA membership is down so what USPA turned into a DZO trade group a long time ago. The USPA membership gives the Tandems a warm cozy feeling

Just the way it is and will be at some DZ's.

R.I.P.

[skybytch 259]

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only to learn they were not allowed to jump with me because they didn't yet have a license and I don't hold a "coach" rating.

A change was made this year that allows pretty much anybody with a D license to jump with people who are off instruction but don't yet have a license. Prior to this change, the requirement for a coach rating to jump with those people was waiverable by an S&TA.

One thing I liked about Robin's article is the emphasis he puts on "bringing back" the S/L program. I know I wouldn't have done more than one or two jumps when I was starting out if I'd had to pay AFF prices. Far more people can afford to pay $50 or so for a static line jump every 30 days than can afford to pay $150+ for an AFF jump every 30 days.

We can also retain more people by not telling them that totally airworthy older equipment is unsafe because it's not "safe" to freefly with or that the main canopy is "old school" (think all F111 mains here). I've got two perfectly good complete rigs in storage that I can't even give away because the containers have velcro on them and the mains are F111. Yes, older gear has limitations on how it can be used, but imho, as long as a jumper knows those limitations and operates within them, older gear is safe and people who can't afford (or don't want to sink that kind of money into) newer equipment shouldn't be discouraged from buying/flying it.

[Ron 7]

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The current system is not working.The new people are not able to jump with the general population,they are not making friends,they are not hanging out after hours.

Part of this problem is the yuppie skydivers. They come out, make their 5-6 jumps and run home to get cleaned up and go out to eat. When I started...Oh please, this is making me sound old....people would come out, make as many jumps as they could and HANG OUT afterward. They would all smell bad form a days hard jumping and no one cared.

The best piece of advice ever given to me about skydiving....It was from Mark Cruise, "Show up at the DZ with a case of beer. You will have friends."

If some of these new people quit showing up to the DZ expecting to be treated like the experienced folk are there to make them happy and realized that the experienced folk are trying to have fun and be challenged as well...then maybe they will hang out, drink a few beers and make some friends. I will jump with a friend no matter how good/bad/ugly they are. But I am not going to go out of my way to seek out someone for the 4 -5 hours they are at the DZ to make sure they have a good time.

Some of the more EXP folks need to be willing to spend time talking to these folks.

Its two sides, but since most skydivers love other skydivers I think its more the attitude of the new folks, not the old hands.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

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USPA membership is down so what USPA turned into a DZO trade group a long time ago.

I am afraid you are right on this point and we can look to losing a certain law suit now pending because of it.

You can't represent the seller of a product and the customer buying that product without some conflict of interest.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Reginald 0]

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Part of this problem is the yuppie skydivers. They come out, make their 5-6 jumps and run home to get cleaned up and go out to eat. When I started...Oh please, this is making me sound old....people would come out, make as many jumps as they could and HANG OUT afterward. They would all smell bad from a days hard jumping and no one cared.

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Hey didn't you run down to the far end of the runway and hangout in a comfortable house at the end of the day last weekend? What about the common folk in the trailers drinking cheap domestic beer? We need love too!

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I will jump with a friend no matter how good/bad/ugly they are.

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Are you calling me ugly? OMG, you've never even jumped with me! I must REALLY be UGLY!

Okay, seriously, I see too many new people not taking the time to try and get acclimated. Beer works! It gives a new person a chance to interact and introduce themselves to the experienced jumpers. I go out of my way to make new people feel at home but it is a 2 way street!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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[DSE 3]

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Okay, seriously, I see too many new people not taking the time to try and get acclimated. Beer works! It gives a new person a chance to interact and introduce themselves to the experienced jumpers. I go out of my way to make new people feel at home but it is a 2 way street!

The beer works, but one small comment before I crawl back to my hole:
Please remember that newbie skydivers are in awe and somewhat intimidated by the active and more aggressive skydivers. With adrenaline junkies being portrayed in movies like "Point Break" and "Dropzone," many skydivers carry a certain mystique about them that intimidates the newbies. Newbies also don't know to bring beer. (In Utah, no one knows to bring beer anyway )

Additionally, at a couple DZs I've been to had a sort of horseplay that told me I didn't want to be around. VERY explicit sexual jokes and activity made it a place that a family wouldn't want their 18 y/o being exposed to just yet.
My daughter went to a couple different DZs to get in her first tandems and AFF, and found that she just didn't like being hit on by every guy in the place from the DZO on down. She ended up doing her AFF in Utah, 3000 miles from her home in Georgia. I'm not by any stretch a prude, but bear in mind that the conversion and retention starts with tandems, and I'd submit that a huge percentage of tandem pax drag their family or friends along with them. For their one afternoon of fun, should the DZO allow the more extreme horseplay and vocabulary to take place?
I don't know the answer to that, I just know that I'm glad I have a DZ that only has a limited amount of that kind of activity. (Yeah, we have a lot of horseplay, but the DZO has hinted to the staff and regulars to keep the "Fuck, shit, bitch etc" and assgrabbing of both males and females to a dull roar. No one likes having their ass grabbed or be dry humped while they're packing their parachute. Newbies and tandem pax likely don't quite understand what they're seeing)