Robin Heid on Jumper Retention

[slug 1]

Quote

My daughter went to a couple different DZs to get in her first tandems and AFF, and found that she just didn't like being hit on by every guy in the place from the DZO on down. She ended up doing her AFF in Utah, 3000 miles from her home in Georgia.)

I'm a guy and used to have the same problem all those skydiving women & DZO's hit on me. It's part of the DZ culture instead of a gender issue.

Even when I didn't want their help the women wanted to carry my gear, sit next to me, jump with me, invite me to their car.

I could be wrong maybe it's just my magnetic personality.But the free coaching was nice

OTOH some DZO's run a tight ship and keep the fun jumpers away from their gravy train.

There's enough tandems coming thru the door every day that a lot of DZ's aren't concerned about retention.

There's also a lot of us sweet young things that enjoy the special attention at the DZ and getting on the fast track. And thats a fact jack, irregardless of gender or beer

R.I.P.

[DSE 3]

Sounds like I need to hang with you, Slug. I'm past the age of getting all the attention from the females, maybe if I hung out with a cool young dude like yourself I'd be attracting something other than flies.

[rmsmith 1]

I haven't seen the article yet, but I see it as an economic and demographic issue.

Young people have a real tough time making any money these days unless they're techies, and skydiving is an extremely expensive sport. Sure, it is much safer today with powerful turbine aircraft, AADs, and the advanced materials, but all these fine things must be paid for at the end of the month.

A cursory glance around the packing area today yields an abundance of aging baby boomers; in the seventies the view was still filled with baby boomers, but they were of course much younger. Today's DZOs have fewer youth in the population as customers who in turn have less disposable income -- a tough combination.

[jakee 1,259]

Quote

Additionally, at a couple DZs I've been to had a sort of horseplay that told me I didn't want to be around. VERY explicit sexual jokes and activity made it a place that a family wouldn't want their 18 y/o being exposed to just yet.

Y'know, by the time they're 18 most people have done a lot more than just be exposed to that.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Stevehend15 0]

If they have not been exposed to that by 18 maybe a DZ isnt the best place to go. I am 18 and the jokes are good entertainment for me. Skydiving has not become a social event for me yet. I am usually the youngest by 5 years and its hard to find anbody to relate to. I want to hang out at the DZ afterhours but I am viewed as a kid and not really welcomed. I still have fun though.

[jakee 1,259]

Quote

If they have not been exposed to that by 18 maybe a DZ isnt the best place to go. I am 18 and the jokes are good entertainment for me. Skydiving has not become a social event for me yet. I am usually the youngest by 5 years and its hard to find anbody to relate to. I want to hang out at the DZ afterhours but I am viewed as a kid and not really welcomed. I still have fun though.

I started at 18, 21 now. Maybe its different in that here 18 is old enough to legally join in the drinking at the bar but to me the DZ is a unique place for being treated as an equal by people from 16 to 60.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[slug 1]

Quote

Sounds like I need to hang with you, Slug. I'm past the age of getting all the attention from the females, maybe if I hung out with a cool young dude like yourself I'd be attracting something other than flies.

Hi Spot

Cool young dude Only in cyber space and my dreams

Time to take another nap

R.i.P.

[DSE 3]

Quote

Quote

Additionally, at a couple DZs I've been to had a sort of horseplay that told me I didn't want to be around. VERY explicit sexual jokes and activity made it a place that a family wouldn't want their 18 y/o being exposed to just yet.

Y'know, by the time they're 18 most people have done a lot more than just be exposed to that.

Exactly proving my point.
Just because they've been exposed to it doesn't mean they have to enjoy it. A DZ isn't Disneyland, but it's also not a strip joint. The point of the article is retention and conversion, and I'd submit part of it is exactly the elitism that tandem folks often see, and if that show of elitism is too far over the top, they won't see themselves as being able to be a part of the sport. While a DZ is a social place, like any other social place, it needs to turn a profit in order to operate. In order to continue to turn a profit, new blood is required, yeah? I've never owned a DZ, just have spent a fair amount of time observing several small DZ's and a couple very large ones. Maybe I'm too P&L oriented?

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Y'know, by the time they're 18 most people have done a lot more than just be exposed to that.

Does that mean it alright to act like a sleaze ball in the student area? Some of the behavior I have seen from instructors and others working with students would get them thumped if it was my 18 year old daughter. Acting like a punk is never appropriate.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PrairieDoug 0]

Quote

Acting like a punk is never appropriate.

Amen !

[Dean358 0]

Quote

Part of this problem is the yuppie skydivers. They come out, make their 5-6 jumps and run home to get cleaned up and go out to eat. When I started...Oh please, this is making me sound old....people would come out, make as many jumps as they could and HANG OUT afterward.

Hi Ron,

I’m definitely guilty of this, although I take a wee bit of offense at being labeled a “yuppie skydiver.” I certainly enjoy hanging out at the end of the day at my home DZ, The Blue Sky Ranch, but I have a lot of commitments outside of skydiving that usually prevent me from doing that. While its certainly faster and easier to make friends hanging out at night – not to mention amusing – the vibe at The Ranch makes everyone feel welcome pretty much from the moment they arrive. Although I may not be at the bonfire I do my best to help promote the good vibes when I’m there. I’d like to think it doesn’t completely suck having us darn yuppie skydivers around.

Anyway, I gotta motor – need to get my six jumps in today before I run home, get cleaned up and hang out with my non-skydiving wife and friends.

Cheers,
Dean

www.wci.nyc

[Reginald 0]

Quote

A DZ isn't Disneyland, but it's also not a strip joint.

Quote

Well, we could have a whole thread on just that comment alone!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

• Quote

Share this post

---

Link to post

Share on other sites

[Dolph 0]

Quote

(Yeah, we have a lot of horseplay, but the DZO has hinted to the staff and regulars to keep the "Fuck, shit, bitch etc" and assgrabbing of both males and females to a dull roar. No one likes having their ass grabbed or be dry humped while they're packing their parachute. Newbies and tandem pax likely don't quite understand what they're seeing)

The tandem pax come for their one time amusement park bragging-rights giving jump. This is true for the majority at least.

They come into a playground that is run, used, maintained and kept vibrant by a bunch of people who dedicate a lot of time and money to their passion. That the atmosphere and culture is dictated by the personalities of the individuals involved should come as no surprise.

While I agree that it's idiotic to provoke visitors for the sake of provoking them, I also feel it's wrong to censor the natural climate.

Quite frankly, I don't give a rats arse if me calling a friend a "fuckin' asshole" upsets them because they position themselves so that they overhear it. If that scares them away - good. If a few bad words upset them so much, I don't want to think about their reaction to having a good friend burn in.

People going skydiving ought to think about what they're about to do. A few foul words is nothing compared to what can happen in the sport.

[jakee 1,259]

Quote

Does that mean it alright to act like a sleaze ball in the student area? Some of the behavior I have seen from instructors and others working with students would get them thumped if it was my 18 year old daughter. Acting like a punk is never appropriate.

Instructors cracking on to their students when they should be teaching them is not acceptable. However he was talking about the general atmosphere of the Dz. You can't expect a bunch of jumpers not to crack rude jokes and have fun with each other just in case some student overhears it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JohnMitchell 14]

One of the points in the article was that skydivers have long maintained "There is no shallow end of the pool in skydiving." In other words, can someone come out to jump 5-6 times a year, like skiing or scuba diving, and still do it safely? How much would skiing, snowboarding, and scuba sports suffer if they had the same stringent currency requirements?

What kind of training would it take so that someone could come out a few times each year and make a few static line jumps on rented gear?. I'm sure a lot of folks would love that as an occasional outing, not a huge lifestyle change. I enjoy bungee jumping form time to time, but it's not a huge part of my life. Would I patronize those places if they required memberships, currency, etc.?

As to the atmosphere at the DZ, I jump with the Kapowsin bunch, which has always billed itself as a family oriented DZ. Married jumpers with kids are very common at this DZ, and the antics you talk about are frowned upon. It may sound boring, but at least I'm not embarrassed when friends show up for tandems. Heck, we even did a Cub Scout outing to the DZ. The jumpers and Cub Scouts got a real kick out of each other.

As far as encouraging student retention, I tell each of my tandem passengers that are intelligent and in moderately good shape or better about our AFF and SL program, and make sure they know that they get a $50 discount on the FJC for having made a tandem. I joke that years ago I came out to make just one jump to see what it was like (true story) and for them to think about becoming a skydiver. In the end, though, our sport is, in an overused expression, extreme, and will never appeal to the masses as an all the time thing. But I would be interested in tryng "make a static line from time to time" kind of program. I think it could be done safely.

It would at least be safer than downsizing at 32 jumps.

[JerryBaumchen 1,066]

Hi Dolph,

Quote

Quite frankly, I don't give a rats arse if me calling a friend a "fuckin' asshole" upsets them because they position themselves so that they overhear it. If that scares them away - good. If a few bad words upset them so much, I don't want to think about their reaction to having a good friend burn in.

I do not know how things work with jumping operations in Europe but I do know something about the USA.

Back in about 1970 Ted Mayfield ran a dz at Donald, OR that I frequented almost every weekend; he owned the land. During a competition a 4-way team landed way out, in a farmer's field. When the farmer came out to complain, the 4-way team told him to shup up or they would kick his ass, etc, etc. 2 years later that dz was closed by the county commisioners.

Skydivers represent a VERY small portion of the population at large.

Jerry

[jakee 1,259]

Quote

Back in about 1970 Ted Mayfield ran a dz at Donald, OR that I frequented almost every weekend; he owned the land. During a competition a 4-way team landed way out, in a farmer's field. When the farmer came out to complain, the 4-way team told him to shup up or they would kick his ass, etc, etc. 2 years later that dz was closed by the county commisioners.

Well I agree that's a stupid (and arrogant) thing to do, but what does it have to do with behaviour between skydivers on the DZ?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[PhreeZone 15]

I don't know what its like at other Dropzones but we have more then a crowd of jumpers that shows up and does no more then 10 jumps through out the year and thats about all we see of them. Some of them have been jumping since the 70's and are using the gear they bought used in the early 90's and others are jumping brand new rigs. I know of a whole crew that are called the "over the hill gang" that have lots of jumps each but only show up on holiday weekends for a day and split. There are even a few people floating around that have less then 30 jumps over the whole time peroid that I have been jumping. Thats 5-6 a year. None of this causes an issue with currency because the typical refresher is only 5 minutes if one is even needed in the first place. After taking the winter off I know come spring I like to have a quick refresher to keep in my mind not my emergency procedues, but the other issues like aircraft, double outs, wraps/entangelments, etc. I do disagree with forcing coach jumps on people with more then a reasonalbe amout of jumps, but a ground refresher has never hurt anyone to my knowledge.

An issue comes that people that only show up rarely don't like being told they can't go get that canopy and load it heavily, or no they should'nt go get on that 15 way thats going up or they shouldn't get on that 5 way freefly with only 35 jumps over the last 4 years. You can kinda see this at the WFFC every year when you have a bunch of Cessna jumpers showing up and getting to play on toys they don't get to the rest of the year. The LO's can tell some good stories about jumpers like this. I used to be able to sit at the WFFC and guess if the jumper was from a Cessna DZ or a Turbine DZ just on the way they would fly their canopy and land. And this is with some what experienced jumpers that have at least 50 jumps to show up and jump.

I only snowboard 1-2 times every year. I also only go in the Midwest where the vertical fall is only 300 feet and even the "black diamond" runs are more like Blue runs on a resort out west. I know if I was to travel outside my little hill that even if I can run the black runs after 4-5 warm ups here it does'nt mean I could do the same there. Unlike skydiving, skiing doesn't have that many malfunctions to worry about. There is nothing that is equal to a double canopy out situation to have to be refreshed on. There are no briefings about what to do if there are ski lift issues because unlike an aircraft issue its not an issue that needs to thought about (ride it down, reserve bail out, main bail out)


I don't see a program of just static line jumps any different then a static line DZ already. Do you want someone that hasn't jumped for a year just to be able to walk up rent a rig and hop on the next load with out so much as a refresher from a JM, you do you think that someone like that needs to have at least a crash course again? If they start racking up some jumps in a short time peroid do you progress them to freefall or do you keep them on the static line since you know they won't be back for another few months after that day if ever. If they do get to freefall and then don't show up again for 6 months do they get to freefall again right away? Doing just a static line every few months or years is already an option and there are jumpers out there that do that currently. The issue is that the current programs are designed to advance you to become a solo jumper. If someone set up a program just to do static line and no progression then you would hear complaints of a "static line mill" where all they do is toss jumpers out and would be turning the static line into another carnival ride like people say tandems are today.

Honestly the Brits might have use beat here since they are still doing static line jumps on rounds at a few places. Injury rates are higher under them, but training time/cost/effort is way less since you can wire the release shut and just say "If anything looks wrong just throw the reserve out".

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Dolph 0]

Quote

When the farmer came out to complain, the 4-way team told him to shup up or they would kick his ass, etc, etc. 2 years later that dz was closed by the county commisioners.

Skydivers represent a VERY small portion of the population at large.

Jerry

You're right about this. It's another part of the skydiving equation though - with skydivers occupying someone else's territory and behaving poorly.

My comment was more minded to situation where for instance we're packing in our hangar, on our ground. Pal will have made about 10 knots on my PC bridle and tied it together with someone elses.

Now, if a curious tandem passenger has sneaked into the hangar to watch what's going on, he or she will hear some adult language.

The socialising that takes place on the DZ between jumpers should not be neutered because outsiders might take offense. If it gets too bad, an old timer will step in at any rate; it's kind of self regulating that way. It's more or less a meritocracy.

A DZ that's a business might be a different thing. It's much more of a employee to customer relationship which may warrant a different set of standards.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

A DZ that's a business might be a different thing. It's much more of a employee to customer relationship which may warrant a different set of standards.

From what you said your DZ might be a club. But if they are taking tandem up it is a business and customer relations are important.

Quote

My comment was more minded to situation where for instance we're packing in our hangar, on our ground.

Most DZ’s today are a business and as such catering to the customer is paramount.
Unless you are the DZO you are not packing in your hanger on your ground. You are a guest to the person running the business.

Quote

Now, if a curious tandem passenger has sneaked into the hangar to watch what's going on,

How does a customer of the business “sneak” into the business? If they are paying for a skydive they have as much right to be there as you do.

Where does it say that socializing has to involve being crude, rude and obnoxious? Would you and your friends behave in that manor at your mother’s house? If not why would you consider is appropriate when around some else’s mother or children.

Quote

he or she will hear some adult language.

What are the chances "he or she" will see some adult behavior? It takes very little effort to be courteous and considerate of other people around you. Give it a try sometime.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DSE 3]

Quote

[Quite frankly, I don't give a rats arse if me calling a friend a "fuckin' asshole" upsets them because they position themselves so that they overhear it. If that scares them away - good. If a few bad words upset them so much, I don't want to think about their reaction to having a good friend burn in.

People going skydiving ought to think about what they're about to do. A few foul words is nothing compared to what can happen in the sport.

What I'm referring to is a lot worse than what you're referring to. I agree with your comment; hearing that sort of comment from time to time isn't at all a problem.
On the other hand...a jumpmaster telling a tandem pax "Spread those knees, baby, you know I wanna be sitting between your legs for the next 20 minutes" is a bit over the top. You really think that young thing wants to come back? And pay to be harassed?
DZO doesn't censor anyone; he just asks folks to keep it to a dull roar. Our local DZ is a lot like what John Mitchell describes, a LOT of families for both tandem pax and fun jumpers, and a lot of small children in the loft from time to time.
If you wanna keep em', then it needs to feel friendly to an extent.

[tdog 0]

The USPA changed the requirements for people who can jump with students cleared for self supervision... You no longer need a coach rating - just a D and you can do a 4way with up to two students...

I voiced my disagreement with our Regional Director - and our DZ does not allow non instructors to jump with students... But the claim was, it would cause more students to stick in the sport...

I agree - the coach jumps post AFF, pre-A, can add up to a lot of money - and the coaches often are not giving as much learning in freefall than they perhaps could... And our DZ charges more for the gear rental than the slot - making jumps super expensive for the average joe.

Students get various levels of TLC thru AFF, then can be, in poorly run situations, left for 18 jumps to fend for themselves on getting coaching and TLC...

If DZOs truly cared about bringing new jumpers into the sport - they could:

1) Pay experienced guys with coach ratings or better to jump with the students... No cash, just offer the slot free on the plane... How many times do you see an otter with an open slot?

2) Give 5 free slots to all students who get their "A" on loads that otherwise have open slots... Again - most guys will jump as much as the bank allows, so these free slots will not take revenue out of the register because the skydivers will pay for as many slots as they can afford or can budget in addition to the free slots.

3) Encourage instructors and other skydivers to keep the students in the sport. Just yesterday I taught 9 people in a first jump course, then jumped with a few and watched my peers jump with the rest... Knowing this thread - I looked at each student as they did their introduction at the beginning of the class - and asked myself, "which 0.5 of these 9 will stick around long enough to get their A" - knowing the statistic is 1 in 20 at our DZ.... I have no incentive to keep these students in the sport - other than know if they do another level I might get to jump with them and get my AFF pay... I personally do my best to keep them in the sport - by showing "best of videos" and spending 20 minutes introducing the sport - showing them my wingsuit and photos of me flying - videos of awesome freefly - etc, and asking them, which discipline interests them the most... This seemed to really work yesterday to get them excited... I truly want them to stick around - so I also give my cell phone and e-mail address out and ask them to call me...

Now... If the DZO really wanted me to get these guys to be long term skydivers (BTW - we do have a great DZO who does care about skydivers so I am being devils advocate here not bashing our DZ, but the system in general) - he would pay me based upon how many earned their "A" instead of how many showed up for level 1... Think about that... A First Jump teacher and AFF level 1 instructor who share $150+ for every student of theirs who earns their "A" - or 1% of every slot the skydiver buys for the rest of their skydiving career, or something creative like that... Now, you would have instructors who would be motivated to keep the students jumping - and instead of asking for tips "gratuity not expected, but always appreciated" - they would be offering the beer to the skydivers who celebrated their "firsts" and would continue to monitor their students as mentors beyond the "A", and beyond the "B"...

But - I believe that many DZOs don't really care about experienced skydivers. AFFs and Tandems pay the bills, the skydivers just round out the rest of the slots on the plane.

Now - with how many AFF level 1s we do each weekend - if the FJC teachers could keep 30% more in the sport for a year to do 50 jumps - we could get our DZO 226 more otter loads, or $119,554 in gross revenue a year... If they stuck around for two years - the second year we could get 500 more otter loads and $240,000 in revenue in the second year.... Does that make sense all of a sudden to a DZO - or would they just see it as less room on the planes for the tandems???

Again, not bashing any one DZ - just throwing out ideas for the system in general...

[Ron 7]

Quote

I’m definitely guilty of this, although I take a wee bit of offense at being labeled a “yuppie skydiver.” I certainly enjoy hanging out at the end of the day at my home DZ, The Blue Sky Ranch, but I have a lot of commitments outside of skydiving that usually prevent me from doing that.

Dean here is the question....Do you run home then bitch that you don't feel like you belong at the DZ or don't fit in?

The thing is, I don't think you have the right to bitch that the DZ does not "Accept" you, if you are only there for 6 hours one weekend per mth and can't be bothered to spend some time getting to know people and them getting to know you.

You want to come out do some jumps and go home...Cool, but you lose the right to bitch that you don't feel "included". If you want to feel included you have to put some effort into it.

Maybe you don't bitch. If not, then this does not apply to you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

I feel that when we stop seeing pre-teens go in while making their first jump in some other country on TV over and over we will get more people to participate. When we stop seeing Cessnas spin into the ground after dropping the first S/L student on TV we will get more people out to the DZ. When we stop seeing new jumpers with little experience talk on GMA about how their chute didn't open right spin into the parking lot when in fact they caused their own malfunction and are damn lucky to be alive we will get more people into the sport.

We have met the enemy and the enemy is ourselves. All of us. All of us that let this stuff go on.

When DZs start addressing safety issues when they come up rather than sweep them under the rug people will stay in the sport as they feel their safety is being taken seriously. But when canopy collision after canopy collision occurs there is some shit that just can't be tolerated. Not only are we not retaining students we aren't retaining the experienced jumpers either. I'm no longer a USPA member and I'm out of the sport. Training has not caught up to the sport nor do I see it catching up either. Robin seems to think that every DZ should say "Yes" to everyone that wants to make a jump. He wants to reinvent the wheel on currency. Well, in flying airplanes if you aren't current you PAY TO PLAY! Why should a commercial operation be expected to take a loss getting a jumper in the air? Everything for free huh? That's bogus. You got to pay to play folks.

I totally disagree with this "article". Maybe I missed it in the headline but this seemed to be more of an editorial than a "news" article. It's one persons opinion. Was this an editorial?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Airman1270 0]

Quote

The USPA changed the requirements for people who can jump with students cleared for self supervision... You no longer need a coach rating - just a D and you can do a 4way with up to two students...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Here we go again... Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone, especially a brand new graduate.

If someone, especially a DZ regular whose skills are known to the DZO, has proven himself and wants to jump with the new guy, why impose artificial requirements which have NOTHING to do with the actual safety of everyone involved?

Cheers,
Jon S.

• Quote