Who is negligent for poor gear rental?

[davelepka 4]

When you rented the rig, if there was no written agreement outlining who was responsible for what, both parties are making some assumptions.

The renter is making the assumption that the rig is airworthy, the reserve is in date, the AAD is current and operational.

The gear store is making the assuption that the gear will be used within it's design limitations, and will be cared for for by the renter.

Main is unpacked when received by new jumper***

If the renter accepts the rig in this condition, they are accepting responsibility for the rig from that point forward.

How the main is packed, or who packs it is then the responsibility of the renter. The renter in this case chose to employ a packer.

At best, the renter could take issue with the packer, but pakcers for the most part do not take responsibility for mals of any sort. Their employment is based upon timely service and good packing, so they will put effort into doing the job correctly, but they make no guarantees.

[yoink 321]

Bingo,

it sounds as simple as a jumper rented a rig, got it packed by a packer and had a mal.

If that's true, then the gear wasn't unfit to jump when it was rented.

You want to reduce the chance of this sort of thing happening? Learn to pack.

[teason 0]

How did you miss a PC packed so bad that you can pick up a 25lbs rig by the handle????

Either you're stretching the truth or you didn't look twice at your gear before you put it on.
That is assuming you had a packer pack the rig, you won't say who packed the rig even though others have asked.

Maybe you should look at the incident and ask yourself "what could I have done to prevent this"

A jumper who looks to blame others for his mistakes should either get out of the sport or take a good hard look at the concept of personal responsability.

Skydiving is a sport where the participants take resposibility for thier own actions. If you are looking for fellow jumpers to tell you that you had nothing to do with the incident, hold your hand and that someone else was to blame and therefore responsible, I don't think you're gonna get it here.

A student who can't admit to mistakes is a hazzard because he is doomed to repeat them.
A student who takes ownership and responsibility for a mistake has empowered himself and has the ability to prevent it from happening again.

This sport has no room for victims.

I find it very disturbing that you would blame the owner of the equipment for an error in packing that you possibly did, should have checked and decided to jump.

You are responsible for your own safety and you better be buying thier rigger a bottle for the reserve!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[popsjumper 2]

Call me a hard-ass if you like.

This is a stupid fucking question and it appears to me to be a stupid fucking troll of a poll.

You jump it, it's your responsibility and laying it off on anyone else tells me that the jumper is a DZI.

The only ones I would even consider as being subject to someone else's reponsibility is a brand new jumper who doesn't know shit and can't be depended on to get it right the first time. That's one of the reasons instructors are supposed to do gear checks for them before they jump. Legal issues aside, instructors have a moral responsibility to look out for the youngsters I would think.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DougH 270]

Quote

Legal issues aside, instructors have a moral responsibility to look out for the youngsters I would think.

Would you agree that students also have a moral responsibility to know that ultimately their saftey is 100% in their own hands?

I look to my instructors for knowledge and information, I look only to myself to keep alive, I know they can kill me just like everyone else. I just don't think it is fair for a student to have the belief that their instructors are the end all be all for their saftey

I don't care if Bill Booth hands me a rig and tells me it has been checked over and good to go, I check every single rig that has left my hands and was out of my sight, or was touched last by some one other than me.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Genn 0]

A

Quote

Person just off student status....

is no longer a student.

You break, you buy!

[popsjumper 2]

Absolutely! You're ultimately responsible both legally AND morally. You are to be commended for your diligence in looking after yourself as well as you say you are. Not everyone is a diligent as you, sad to say.

And you are right. Students definitely should NOT have the belief that instructors are the end all, be all for their safety and I can't for a minute believe that any instructor out there would actively promote that idea in a student...quite the opposite, I'm sure, with emphasis on self-responsibility. I sincerely apologize if I somehow gave you that impression but I suspect you are extrapolating in error.

I repeat: You jump it, it's your responsibility and laying it off on anyone else tells me that the jumper is a DZI.

For clarification: While an instructor is not responsible for the student, not one of them out there would feel ambivalent or apathetic towards an incident involving their student. That does imply that they have some degree of morals with respect to their students. It's just that some are better than others.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Lindercles 0]

Two questions:

One to the OP, you said the jumper was "off student status" but was the jumper licensed?

One to everyone else, do you think it matters if the jumper was licensed?

[DougH 270]

Quote

...I somehow gave you that impression but I suspect you are extrapolating in error.

It was more of a case of typing out the voices in my head, I was certainly not trying to disagree with you.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,476]

>For those who think that a rig is acceptable to jump with a main
>canopy inaccessible then perhaps you need a lesson in odds.

For those who think it's OK to jump a rig on which you can't deploy the main, and which you don't bother checking - you need a lesson in judgement. Such a boneheaded error could kill you.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...One to everyone else, do you think it matters if the jumper was licensed?

I'm thinking that one is "on student status" until a license is achieved. Maybe "off student status" means, in this case, "cleared for self-supervision".

One would hope that a licensed skydiver would know better than to do what was done. But, alas, that's not always true.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Lindercles 0]

Quote

Maybe "off student status" means, in this case, "cleared for self-supervision".

That's what I was thinking. The original post said the jumper had 20 jumps. I don't know what country they're jumping in, but USPA requires 25 jumps for the A. So it's possible they weren't licensed yet. In which case, does that make a difference in anyone's opinion?

[popsjumper 2]

IMHO, no. No difference.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skybytch 259]

Quote

So it's possible they weren't licensed yet. In which case, does that make a difference in anyone's opinion?

No. Once someone is cleared to self-jumpmaster it is assumed that they know how to take care of themselves. Checking the gear prior to putting it on is part of taking care of one's self.

[SpeedPhreak 0]

Quote

Quote

So it's possible they weren't licensed yet. In which case, does that make a difference in anyone's opinion?

No. Once someone is cleared to self-jumpmaster it is assumed that they know how to take care of themselves. Checking the gear prior to putting it on is part of taking care of one's self.

The operative word(s) here being: "Self-Jumpmaster". If someone else were responsible for for checking your gear/spot/exit/body position/etc... it wouldn't be "self" now would it?

SkydiveAllegan.com

[skybytch 259]

Quote

The operative word(s) here being: "Self-Jumpmaster". If someone else were responsible for for checking your gear/spot/exit/body position/etc... it wouldn't be "self" now would it?

Not sure what your point is...

[billvon 2,476]

>If someone else were responsible for for checking your
>gear/spot/exit/body position/etc... it wouldn't be "self" now would it?

Correct. If someone else is responsible for your safety, you are a student (at least for the purposes of this discussion.)

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

One to the OP, you said the jumper was "off student status" but was the jumper licensed?

One to everyone else, do you think it matters if the jumper was licensed?

That part is a bit unclear - I interpretted it as an A license, but later he said it was a coach jump. If so, there should have been a gear check by an instructor type.

For a licensed jumper, there's no doubt. For an AFF-1, goes to the other extreme For what they know and what they pay for a jump, the DZ should eat the losses. In betweem there is some turning point. At 20 jumps they're practically licensed and can be held to a high duty of care. At 10, just past AFF, it's fuzzy. But not enough to ignore the writing in the contract.

And for the vagueness factor alone, let him pay.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

hehe No they're not

New Jumper Pays! 18 / 40%
DZ and company! 16 / 36%
DZ and company split cost with new jumper 50 /50! 3 / 7%


19 people say the dz has at least 50% responsibility.

18 people say the new jumper has responsibility.

heeheheheheeee

Redo the poll and give all the facts. The rig was handed to the renter with the main unpacked. The renter either packed the main or paid to have it packed. The renter has a hard pull and it sounds like went to the reserve. Renter dropped both cutaway and reserve ripcord handles. Some Instructor says gear is “unacceptable to jump”. Renter now thinks they have no responsibility in this matter.
Answer the following questions:

Was there a rental agreement?
Who packed the main?
Was the renter “off student status”?
Did renter have an A lic.?
Did the instructor say the gear was unacceptable to jump or the pack job was unacceptable to jump?

If you can’t or won’t answer these questions, you already know the answer to you original question and are trolling for support for fucking up in the first place.

If you are not ready to run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[justnalias 0]

Quote

Redo the poll and give all the facts.

Correct, statistics have changed. It is now 33 to 23 in favor of the new jumper paying. All of the known facts are given. Considering the opinion of the perspective being persued, current divulgence of facts are adequate. ***

[pilotdave 0]

I don't care who is negligent or who SHOULD pay. But it's really cool when a DZ bites the bullet for things like that and doesn't charge anything, especially for students, whether or not they HAVE to.

I saw a DZO give a student the melted remains of her DZ's "big boy" canopy after the student landed next to powerlines and draped the canopy over them, causing a brush fire. And she was able to laugh about it. I'm sure she COULD have charged him for it, but it sure was nice of her not to.

It's probably usually less of a burden on a DZ to pay for lost/damaged equipment than it is for most students that just paid for AFF and are about to buy a rig and as many jumps as they can afford over the next year.

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

All of the known facts are given. Considering the opinion of the perspective being persued, current divulgence of facts are adequate.

You're kidding, right? The "facts" are as muddled and misleadingly stated as they possibly can be. You still haven't answered if it was a student coached jump (unlicensed jumper) or a licensed jumper getting coaching. You haven't stated what made the rig unacceptable to jump. You haven't stated if the instructor making the statement is a rigger or not. You haven't stated what the rental agreement was. You also haven't stated what the total malfunction actually was...e.g. a PC in tow or a no-pull. If it was a no pull, why was it a no pull? ROL instead of BOC, handle pushed too far in or what.

Basically we are left with your misleading comments trying to create a scenerio in which it makes it easy for what looks to be the responsible party, the jumper, to get out of their responsibility. This sport is built on personal responsibility, and frankly someone who won't take it is not someone I want to be in the air with. You never know when they will turn around and blame their mistake on you or someone else. For a person like that, that blame may end up in a court of civil law. I have better things to do then put up with with attitude persuing my fun hobby.

Now, if you respond to this post, please respond to each question raised. Although I do have a strong feeling that you will pick and choose what to respond to in order to maintain your previous and current motive.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...You're kidding, right?

I don't think he is kidding...that's why I'm outta here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rocketdog 0]

well if the rig is significantly "unacceptable" MORALLY i would hope that other jumpers, instructors, riggers & the company itself would look out for the renter (student status or not) & mention their concerns.

if it was a student, i think the community & instructors still need to nurture & help upcoming jumpers- especially with safety! obviously, the student needs to learn responsibility (etc.) but i think of myself @ 30 jumps & probably, unknowingly, overlooked a lot of things that others pointed out.

stay safe! IF ONLY "if"S WERE MONEY!
~hollywood

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

if it was a student, i think the community & instructors still need to nurture & help upcoming jumpers- especially with safety! obviously, the student needs to learn responsibility (etc.) but i think of myself @ 30 jumps & probably, unknowingly, overlooked a lot of things that others pointed out.

Yes, however some students refuse help. That's why they're left on their own to leave the sport or grow up. Typically they leave the sport and you bump into them years later at a bar while they're bragging to be a skydiver with hundreds of jumps. One that skysurfs, BASE jumps and is on all the big record jumps. (you laugh, that's a true occurance that I witnessed).

If they stick around in the sport they typically look back to their attitudes at that point in their skydiving life with extreme shame.

Eitherway, those kind of people you can't help, they have to learn they're in the wrong for themselves. Sounds callous, but once you see a dozen-plus people like that its hard to work your butt off to help when they just leave the sport anyways.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."