Aircraft vs. 4-way teams

[AggieDave 6]

In reference to this comment in a thread in incidents that reminded me of a lot of other instances of similar attitudes I've seen in skydiving:

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Dimensions of the A/C door is an important factor for 4-way, so I would not blame the teams for refusing to use beech 99 ...

It would seem that a good 4-way team should be able to launch something well off of just about every type of AC out there. To me being a competitive skydiver means being an all around skydiver. Aircraft shouldn't matter to the point of calling a competition (minus legistics problems, such as 4-way plus video in a plane that won't hold it). It should show which teams are better all around skydivers, not just which plane can chunk a throwaway exit and then turn the most points.

Besides that, a Beech 99 with a cargo door is pretty darned close to the same size as an Otter with a cargo door (which is what we're used to jumping), except that I think the Beech is 2" shorter and about 2" wider (if I remember correctly).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bob.dino 0]

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In reference to this comment in a thread in incidents:

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Dimensions of the A/C door is an important factor for 4-way, so I would not blame the teams for refusing to use beech 99 ...

It would seem that a good 4-way team should be able to launch something well off of just about every type of AC out there.

With practice, yes. I've never seen a Beech 99 jumpship, but I've done a few out of Otters, Skyvans, 750XLs, Caravans, and Turbine Beavers.

The Otter, 750XL, and Caravan are relatively similar, but there are important differences, particularly for the point and IC in the XL. Most folks that I've seen that jump Otters have taken 5-20 jumps to sort out their XL exits. When we went to the last Aussie Nationals, run out of Caravans, after a year of training out of Otters and XLs, it took us about ten jumps to get our exits to the place they were out of the other two aircraft. Our IC picked up a number of bruises in the meantime .

The Turbine Beaver is very different. It's got a smaller door, but an absolutely massive step, so you often move the point or IC outside the airplane. And tall OCs like me bump their heads off the wing. Which makes the launch bloody hard.

And then, of course, the Skyvan is completely and utterly different again...

The point I'm long-windedly trying to make is that different doors do seriously affect the exit for a 4-way team. Teams of a fairly decent level can adapt, but it would take a few practice jumps to things out.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

hmmm... someone who's been around longer then me, please check me on this, but hasn't 4-way and, thus, the dive-pool been around since the days when Cessna's were used mostly and not Twin Otters??? ... i.e. one may say we're "spoiled" by turbines these days???

I guess a team could refuse to compete where a Beech 99 was being used, but its not like they have a right to compete nor a right for the jump plane to be an Otter??

[PhreeZone 15]

It goes beyond just door dimentions. Location and placement of floater bars, camera steps, High wing/Low wing, Single engine/Twin engine plays a factor in the suitability of a plane for 4 way. Nationals requires "nearly identical" configurations on the planes to be jumped to prevent teams from getting screwed by jumping something that is 1 off from everyone else.

In the NSL you are competing not only against who ever else is in your area, but in teams all across the nation that are jumping on that weekend with the same draw. Most weekend teams spend dozens of hours creeping and planing their exits. Suddenly having to use a vastly different plane can subtact 1-3 points off of a teams average. The Exit/Hill is approx 30% of the working time of a skydive. If you are not able to exit you are wasting a lot of valuable time. I've seen the difference in a intermediate team that trained for Otters then jumped a Caravan and suddenly were a full 1-2 points slower since the prop blast was completly different and it took them about 6 seconds out the door to start their working vs 3-4 on the Otter. Its even more pronounced on planes like the Casa/Skyvan where the exits take a whole new timing and presentation methodology. One of the local teams added 1.5 points to their average just by swapping from a Casa to an Otter recently.

I'll let Ron or someone eith way more comp RW experience fill in the details, but thats been my experience filming 4 way for 3 years.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

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I'll let Ron or someone eith way more comp RW experience fill in the details, but thats been my experience filming 4 way for 3 years.

Your experience shows exactly what I'm talking about. In a perfect world, shouldn't a competitive 4-way team be able to fly the relative wind regardless of what they let go prior to being in the relative wind? It would show overall skydiver ability instead of how much practice someone had on a single AC. Sort of like I really think there should be a type of sport accuracy landing requirement on the jumps too.

All around jumpers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhreeZone 15]

4 Way was originally Ground to Air judged, not Air to Air like it is now, its hard getting that 5th person in a Cessna safely

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[bob.dino 0]

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In a perfect world, shouldn't a competitive 4-way team be able to fly the relative wind regardless of what they let go prior to being in the relative wind? It would show overall skydiver ability instead of how much practice someone had on a single AC.

That's like saying that next time you enter a swoop comp, how about we give you a canopy you've never seen before and tell you to swoop that? Of course you can do it, and probably pretty well, but definitely not as well as you can swoop something you really know.

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Sort of like I really think there should be a type of sport accuracy landing requirement on the jumps too.

Why don't we add a style set to swoop comps then? It's a 4-way competition, not an all-round skydiver competition .

[Icon134 0]

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In the NSL you are competing not only against who ever else is in your area, but in teams all across the nation that are jumping on that weekend with the same draw.

Dave this it the most important statement in Eric's post... its the advantage that the teams across the country are getting that is most at issue for a lot of 4-way teams... personally I'm not good enough to consider it a big issue what aircraft I'm jumping but I understand where many of the top teams are comming from...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[AggieDave 6]

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Why don't we add a style set to swoop comps then? It's a 4-way competition, not an all-round skydiver competition

Ok, that wouldn't be a problem, even though I'm not as good doing style series as those guys in the funny suits with the odd body position.

My point of the thread is that it seems like skydiving is breaking apart into the very specialized fields, as it has been doing for 40 years; however, it has lost the all-around skydiver mentality that I see from some of the older non-competition jumpers. With that, to me, it seems like the attitudes are getting worst from the competitive jumpers.

With windtunnels popping up quicker then my lawn grows, at what point does competitive skydiving become so specialized and so regimented that only those that can afford to do nothing but put in 2000 jumps for specific training and another 20+ hours in a tunnel training with a coach become obsolete?

Basically I got to thinking that the extreme isolation of the disciplines could begin to kill the sport by isolating the low time jumper even more then they are now. Being all around skydivers who don't take every opportunity to bitch about things when they're not perfectly how they want them in regards to AC is a beginning. What does that show the low time jumpers? The people I was thinking of when I started this thread are also the same jumpers who I have seen simply bitch out a low time jumper for not sitting quite right in an Otter, instead of suggesting a more comfortable way to sit. Same jumpers who I've seen kick a 1/2 packed canopy out of the way since they were the team and they needed their spot to pack. The same jumpers who have taken 15 seconds in the door to setup after the green light is on (and after the spot was good, regardless of the green light), screwing the rest of the load.

Those are the folks that are not all around skydivers, thinking only of themselves, not about the sport.

I think back to the "old school" jumpers who I know. The ones that loved to jump anything that flew simply because it was a jump plane. The ones that would and could launch a 4-way out of a 182, a Twin Otter, a Beech 18, a DC-3 or whatever jump plane they had that would take atleast 4 jumpers. Those are the same jumpers who give back to the sport when they can. They're not all instructors, but they give what they can to who wants it, needs it or simply needs reminding of it.

By no means am I saying that every competitive skydiver is like this and definately not eveyr 4-way jumper is like this. Just something that I've been watching over the past few years (and I know has been going on in this sport LONG before I came along 6 years ago). A comment in a thread that was about a situation that really had nothing to do with my thoughts reminded me of it.

Maybe my yearly low-time jumper pump up boogie (Skyfest) has really got my blood turning. I started thinking about the really bad attitude 4-way teams I've come across over the past few years and the other really bad attitude competitive jumpers I've come across as well. It all got lumped together thinking about some 4-way jumpers I saw in TX a while back bitching about a plane's grip bar. Much less jumping out of something other then a S. Otter.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

We have a WINNER!

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Reginald 0]

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With windtunnels popping up quicker then my lawn grows, at what point does competitive skydiving become so specialized and so regimented that only those that can afford to do nothing but put in 2000 jumps for specific training and another 20+ hours in a tunnel training with a coach become obsolete?

Bad news Dave, this has long since happened. Having done some 4 way I can tell you that teams practice out of Otters and compete out of Otters. And when even an intermediate team is doing 200 or 300 jumps a season training it is a big deal to get a different plane and door configuration thrown in. That said, personally I'm jump out of anything I can get a lift ticket on, unless it's a 182 of course.

The 4 way guys I know are some of the more generous skydivers I know in terms of sharing their expertise with newer jumpers.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[bob.dino 0]

Hey, I'll bitch about a plane's grip bar . But hey, I need something to moan about...

Other than that, I think you're pretty much spot on, though I might argue that you're romanticising the old days. Have a poke through the H&T forum for stories of the skygod attitude of many of the senior jumpers in the old days.

[AMax 0]

PhreeZone and Ron already nailed it, I will just add a few points:

Yes, theoretically you are right, but you do like to use the right equipment when you swoop, play golf, ice hockey or any other equipment-intensive sport. An aircraft door is a part of equipment and it does not make a lot of sense to struggle using the wrong (or unfamiliar) plane if you have a choice. What difference does it make?

Here is a quote from omniskore highlighting 2004 World Parachuting Championships

"FS is being done from an MI-8, the only one here. A lot of teams are having trouble on the exits -- lots of Js in the scores; for most teams, round 1 is their first jump from the MI-8, and for some teams, their first jump from a helicopter"

Not a plane, but the same idea - using an unfamiliar aircraft ... and I guess all those guys were pretty damn good ...

[bigbearfng 16]

Your post made me think quite a while......I used to think in similar terms about competitive skydivers, especially 4 ways takin it too far; but after workin nationals at Perris I discovered that there are those type of attitudes in every discipline; personally I thought that the swoopers outnumbered rw in that regard. But the fact was the great majority of serious competitive skydivers I met were really down to earth people that blew away those stereotypes for me.

[Ron 7]

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I'll let Ron or someone eith way more comp RW experience fill in the details, but thats been my experience filming 4 way for 3 years.

Why bother, you said it for me

Dave:

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It would seem that a good 4-way team should be able to launch something well off of just about every type of AC out there.

Yes a good 4way team (Airspeed) could kick most everyones butt out of a hot air balloon. However, most teams are not that experienced.

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To me being a competitive skydiver means being an all around skydiver.

I think the best analogy was making swoopers jump a different canopy...Just about perfect. Slaten, Bobo, Pilcher, well they would stomp most people, but guys like you and me might not do so well. Even worse if I got to jump my canopy, but you had to jump something new to you...Close, but not the same. Say you had to jump a Stiletto 150, not your Crossfire 149. Who has the advantage?

My dream is to have a comp where you have to compete in several types of jumps. Say a two way comp with seperate jumps with different goals.

A 2 way RW jump.
A 2 way FF jump.
A 2 way CRW rotations jumps.
A team distance swoop.
A team accuracy jump.

Add them all up and you would have your top team.

But this was a 4way meet, not my dream meet and lower experinced teams do not adjust well....Hell, I have video of Airspeed and the Knights funneling out of new aircraft.

The exit is a BIG deal in a meet.

And with that said.

I have shown up at a DZ and that DZ told me they would have a certain plane for the meet. When I got there it was a different plane. Now while *I* would still compete since as long as everyone had the same "handicap" it would be fair. However, since the NSL allows teams to compete accross the US having only one are have a handicap is not cool.

Here is my thing. Did the DZ promise a certain plane an then not produce? If so then then I don't really blame the teams. If the teams knew before hand what the plane was...Well then they don't get much pity from me.

So before we get a rope and hang the teams....Lets find out if the DZ held up its end of the deal.

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The people I was thinking of when I started this thread are also the same jumpers who I have seen simply bitch out a low time jumper for not sitting quite right in an Otter, instead of suggesting a more comfortable way to sit. Same jumpers who I've seen kick a 1/2 packed canopy out of the way since they were the team and they needed their spot to pack. The same jumpers who have taken 15 seconds in the door to setup after the green light is on (and after the spot was good, regardless of the green light), screwing the rest of the load.

But thats ALL kinds of jumpers, not just teams. I have seen FF hose spots and throw tantrums, big ways, AFF's I's...ect. The worst yelling at I got was from an Instructor about how the DZ is for students, not "up" jumpers.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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PhreeZone and Ron already nailed it, I will just add a few points:

This is the kinda stuff I love...Anton, I had not answered this till AFTER you posted that. What are you pyschic?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AMax 0]

Hehe ... I meant different Ron - Reginald

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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4 Way was originally Ground to Air judged, not Air to Air like it is now, its hard getting that 5th person in a Cessna safely

Umm, don't be so sure of yourself... I've been in a C206 many many times, safely, with 5 jumpers and a pilot.

[quade 3]

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Besides that, a Beech 99 with a cargo door is pretty darned close to the same size as an Otter with a cargo door (which is what we're used to jumping), except that I think the Beech is 2" shorter and about 2" wider (if I remember correctly).

There are a couple of "other" dimensions you failed to mention; Camera Step and Handle placement, Horizontal Stabilizer . . .

A fellow camera flyer, a really good friend, actually my initial camera flying mentor, is very lucky to be alive. He struck the horizontal stabilizer during an exit. The "D Bone" of his Flat Top Pro is what struck and as a result the helmet released and went to the ground. An inch or two up or down and I truly believe he would not have survived.

Knowing that alone would put me off my game in a Beech 99.

Just another thing to think about.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[StreetScooby 5]

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The people I was thinking of when I started this thread are also the same jumpers who I have seen simply bitch out a low time jumper for not sitting quite right in an Otter, instead of suggesting a more comfortable way to sit. Same jumpers who I've seen kick a 1/2 packed canopy out of the way since they were the team and they needed their spot to pack. The same jumpers who have taken 15 seconds in the door to setup after the green light is on (and after the spot was good, regardless of the green light), screwing the rest of the load.

I hope someone in a position of authority had a quite chat with these folks. This is completely unacceptable behaviour, even if they are paying alot of money to the dropzone.

We are all engines of karma

[Reginald 0]

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Hehe ... I meant different Ron - Reginald

Yeah, Nicely dressed Ron!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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The people I was thinking of when I started this thread are also the same jumpers who I have seen simply bitch out a low time jumper for not sitting quite right in an Otter, instead of suggesting a more comfortable way to sit. Same jumpers who I've seen kick a 1/2 packed canopy out of the way since they were the team and they needed their spot to pack. The same jumpers who have taken 15 seconds in the door to setup after the green light is on (and after the spot was good, regardless of the green light), screwing the rest of the load.

I hope someone in a position of authority had a quite chat with these folks. This is completely unacceptable behaviour, even if they are paying alot of money to the dropzone.

Possibly, but doubtful... ... while not all teams are like that... I've encountered similar 4-Way Team "Attitude" in the past too, usually you just avoid it and shrug it off. No need to let them ruin your fun.

[diablopilot 2]

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A fellow camera flyer, a really good friend, actually my initial camera flying mentor, is very lucky to be alive. He struck the horizontal stabilizer during an exit.

Blaming the aircraft for that is a mistake.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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I think the best analogy was making swoopers jump a different canopy...Just about perfect. Slaten, Bobo, Pilcher, well they would stomp most people, but guys like you and me might not do so well. Even worse if I got to jump my canopy, but you had to jump something new to you...Close, but not the same. Say you had to jump a Stiletto 150, not your Crossfire 149. Who has the advantage?

It would really need to be a Stiletto 170, a 150 at my wingloading is kinda overloading the canopy just a bit.

Actually, I think that would be kinda cool, if it wasn't so incredibly unsafe. Too many people would frap in from not having the experience with the canopy. Although I think it could be done safely. Have a couple of practice jumps to figure out the dive and the canopy and it would really show who was the more talented swooper, not who had the most jumps on canopy X.

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But thats ALL kinds of jumpers, not just teams. I have seen FF hose spots and throw tantrums, big ways, AFF's I's...ect. The worst yelling at I got was from an Instructor about how the DZ is for students, not "up" jumpers.

Sure. There's just one team in particular that came to mind and comes to mind over and over and over again that is notorious for that really bad behavor. So its sort of stuck in my head.

You are definately right. I have met some FFers and some swoopers that were really really bad in these regards as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mattlyle 0]

Try practicing 4-way from a dropzone that only ever has a tailgate... we get ZERO experience launching exits. Yes, we can take out a fire-and-forget over and over, but that is a point on every jump. Blow the exit and your score is hosed, even for a team that's not serious.