Two canopies out

[Grandpa 0]

Under the assumption that the only stupid question about skydiving (especially safety related) is the one I don't ask, here goes.

I have been following two threads:
"When low go for reserve, not main!" and
"Low? Straight for the reserve?"

My question is this, if you end up with two canopies deployed (side by side or front to back) why wouldn't you cutaway the main? Since it is not ever mentioned in the threads I assume it shouldn't be done but I would like to know the reason for that.

"I know JUST enough about skydiving to know I don't know ANYTHING about skydiving"
XGS#1

[billvon 2,434]

>if you end up with two canopies deployed (side by side or front to back)
>why wouldn't you cutaway the main?

Cause you don't want to screw with something that will save your life. If they are behaving themselves and flying along together - leave them alone! Much better to land under two inflated canopies than a deflated reserve trailing a main that didn't clear it when it was cut away.

[PrairieDoug 0]

Does this depend on whether they're in a bi-plane (front-back) or side-by-side configuration? My understanding was to cut away a side-by-side, even if it's flying stable at the moment, because it could transition into a down-plane.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Yes, it depends on how they are flying. Generally, if you have a biplane with the main in FRONT, you don't want to screw with it. Cutting away a main in front is just asking for your risers to become entangled with your also-cleanly-flying reserve. If the CYPRES beat you and the reserve ends up in front, then cutting away the main is not nearly as dangerous. Still though, once again, if they are both flying cleanly in the biplane configuration, then you may as well land them both. We used to get at least one instance per season where some SL/IAD student would end up with two out and land that way.

If you have a side-by side, it's my experience that it will try to get to the biplane configuration during any turn you might try, or it will do the opposite and downplane. Ultimately, it's your call in a side-by-side. If it's flying nice, you can control it, and it's not going to fly you into the piney woods, then you may want to land it. If it's dancing around and the canopies keep bumping into each other "fighting" each other, then you need to check to see if your risers, etc are clear then cutaway.

This is all stuff that should have been covered in your first jump course. All of that information is listed in the Skydivers Information Manual or "SIM".

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO

[councilman24 36]

go to http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf for more information.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[gerrcoin 0]

Grab an instructor the next time you're at the DZ and get him or her to go through the procedures for a 2-out situation. This is standard training and something every skydiver should have a plan for.
Some people have differing opinions on exactly when you can or cannot cutaway from a 2-out but a good rule of thumb is that if the canopies are flying happily together and nothing else funky is going on, then leave it alone. Generally speaking, it is unwise to chop a main that is flying in front of a reserve because the canopy will go back into the reserve on its way, possibly causing an entanglement or with the main risers and lines causing damage to the reserve. The main-in-front biplane is the most stable anyway and unlikely to cause too many problems.

[TOTALCHAOS127 0]

Has anyone or known anyone with a 2 out situation with a highly loaded main and reserve. Did they land without breaking anything? What where the canopies and wingloadings. I was always taught not to flare a two out canopy configuration. But with 2 canopies that are highly loaded i am guessing not flaring would hurt.

[billvon 2,434]

>Has anyone or known anyone with a 2 out situation with a highly loaded main and reserve.

From the PD report, which you really should read:

"Landing a personal biplane proved to be easy with large canopies, small canopies, heavily loaded canopies, and lightly loaded canopies. Flaring the front canopy seemed to be the preferred method of landing. However it must be noted that flaring the front canopy, or both, did not produce a significant effect in the landing. The canopy would pitch in attitude, but it did not plane out or slow in descent rate much if at all. The descent rate on all canopy combinations was very slow, even in full flight."

[Grandpa 0]

I appreciate everyones input. It's great to know there is a site where I can ask skydiving questions and get answers from people with a wealth of knowledge and lots of experience. Thank you for being out there.

"I know JUST enough about skydiving to know I don't know ANYTHING about skydiving"
XGS#1

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

From the pd article:

Quote

Note: Some people have always believed that you must choose a reserve that is
smaller than the main. While this is probably a safe thing to do it is not an entirely
accurate gauge. For example: a PD-143R has shorter lines than a STILETTO-
135. This combination flew well in a biplane with the main in front. 7 cell
canopies typically have shorter lines than equally sized 9 cells.
conclusion: Use great care to choose proper equipment. Choose a reserve that
is similar in size to the main canopy.

So, I guess my question is, are you more likely to be in a 2-out situation, than be knocked out in freefall? And, if so, why do people push for larger reserve canopies if they don't fly well together?

Just throwing some stuff out there. I'm scared to death to ever be in this situation myself.

angela.

[billvon 2,434]

>are you more likely to be in a 2-out situation, than be knocked out in freefall?

You are way, way more likely to find yourself in a 2-out condition than to get knocked out in freefall.

>And, if so, why do people push for larger reserve canopies if they don't fly well together?

Because you are way, way more likely to find yourself under that reserve at a low altitude than to have to land a two-out. In addition, Derek did some tests with small mains and large reserves; he didn't have much trouble landing them.

[BlindBrick 0]

Quote

Yes, it depends on how they are flying. Generally, if you have a biplane with the main in FRONT, you don't want to screw with it. Cutting away a main in front is just asking for your risers to become entangled with your also-cleanly-flying reserve.

And I can tell you from personal expereince there's no sicker feeling than watching your cutaway main raisers tangle in the reserve's cascades and thinking "well fuck, I just killed myself." Even the feeling of elation when the situation miracalously cleared itself was not enough to compensate.

Which reminds me. For those of you that find yourself in a two-out bi-plane for the very first time, don't make the mistake I did. The trailing canopy is going to be buffetting around a bit. That doesn't mean it's going unstable and about to send you into a downplane, rather it's just the result of the rear canopy flying in the wake of the leading canopy.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

This is all stuff that should have been covered in your first jump course. All of that information is listed in the Skydivers Information Manual or "SIM".

But not consistently. I did my AFFs at two DZs, doing the ground training again for currency needs. One advocated cutaways for nearly everything. The other did not. It seems more critical to have one plan in place and stick to it, rather than debate it up above with dwindling altitude.

One instructor said that for himself in a side by side, he'd force them into a downplane so he could do a clean cutaway of the main.

[crotalus01 0]

how exactly do you force them into a downplane???

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

how exactly do you force them into a downplane???

I think the answer for you or me is you don't. Detach the RSL and as long as the two stay stable, land em. Steer gently.

I suspect grabbing the risers one can separate the canopies apart and force the issue.

[slotperfect 7]

In 1992, the USAPT Team Rigger, Mike Mayo, ran a series of tests to determine what the best course of action was for each two-out scenario.

Here is the PIA test report.

Arrive Safely

John

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Thanks, Bill. :)

Angela.

[LannerFalcon 0]

heres a nice summary:

http://www.zct.co.uk/skydivemag/pages/articles/aug03/canopiesout.html

But Bill what happens if you go into the downplane with the main underneath you, does that mean its risers are likely to be 'closely involved with you' and therefore be difficult to cleanly cut away. I'm trying to picture where all the lines are gonna be if the thing is underneath you ??

The alternative with the reserve underneath, what happens? Does the reserve just swing back up behind you once the main has gone??

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Break now Jester!

[obelixtim 100]

If you go to the "Incidents" forum, page 7, there is a thread which discussed the 2 out scenario in a lot of detail, with some timely advice from some very experienced jumpers.....check it out, it'll save a lot of repetition, and also dispel a few myths I see coming up again, especially about "action to take with 2 out"......

Maybe that thread needs reactivating......it'll answer a lot of questions, especially for newbies.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[billvon 2,434]

>But Bill what happens if you go into the downplane with the main
>underneath you . . . .

You may be thinking of a drag plane, which is the only manuever I've ever seen where a canopy can remain under you (and it requires more than two canopies.) In most cases a downplane is going to result in two canopies on either side of you, more or less.

[LannerFalcon 0]

Okay I thought a downplane was something else

Anyone got a picture of a downplane?

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Break now Jester!

[LannerFalcon 0]

The downplane picture seems to suggest one canopy is right underneath him with one directly overhead?

http://www.bpa.org.uk/skydive/pages/articles/aug03/canopiesout.html

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Break now Jester!

[murps2000 86]

Derek did some tests with small mains and large reserves; he didn't have much trouble landing them.***

You mean Hooknswoop? I'd be very interested in reading about his results, if the info is available.