Bryan Burke - SDAZ 270 Policy notes

[OSOK 0]

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...I would rather be in the air with a bunch of good swoopers

I wonder if they ones that died because of swoopers share the same idea...

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than a few idiot standard pattern flyers any day of the week.

Why put together "idiot" and "standard pattern flyers" together? Flying a standard pattern makes you an idiot or something?

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Swoopers really tend to know more about canopy piloting in all senses because they need to to be safe.

Yeap, agree with you there... so safe how many died because of their swooping?

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All that aside, I'm not against swooping of any kind, but I am against people that prove me right when I say that common sense ain't that common.

[2shay 0]

was trying to state that there are idiots both swoopers and non swoopers. Look at how many non swoopers have died too, not just the swoppers here. Yes a good knowledgeable swooper will typically know more of canopy flight and its rules. i am sick and tired of people using swoopers as the scape goat. They certainly were not the only ones creating this problem. Good that you guys find it easier to point the finger. Swooping in traffic should have never been allowed, spilt areas and seperate can certainly reduce the risk. There will always be risk though, if you don't like the amount of risk take up speed walking or something. The sport is being filled with a bunch of yuppe a holes who can fly a damn kite in my opinion.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

It's one thing for someone like Quade to be shitting down the throats of swoopers. I may not agree with the guy, but he has been around long enough and I'm sure has seen his share of this sport to form an opinion as to what swoopers are and are not. But it is another thing for someone new to the sport to be shitting down our throats. Please educate yourself on our discipline of high performance canopy flight before you pass judgement. You never know, maybe one day you'll be a swooper. I know I wasn't supposed to be a swooper when I got into this sport. Swooping just looked far too dangerous to be doing for someone my age.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[2shay 0]

I was dead set on not swooping when i came in too, then i opened my mind to a whole new world and won't look back until my body can't take it anymore

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[quade 3]

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was trying to state that there are idiots both swoopers and non swoopers. Look at how many non swoopers have died too, not just the swoppers here. Yes a good knowledgeable swooper will typically know more of canopy flight and its rules.

Great! We now agree on this;

Swoopers are a subset of a larger set of skydivers.

Swoopers are just like the larger set of skydivers in that they are comprised of "good and safe" as well as "not as good and not quite as safe".

Therefore, we should all respect each other, both swooper and non-swooper because the discussion ISN'T about swoopers and non-swoopers.

The discussion is about the incompatability of turns greater than 90 degress mixed with a normal landing pattern.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[2shay 0]

totally agreed

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[2shay 0]

you may want to check skydivingfatalities.info what little reading I did i found that on 6 of the 21 deaths last year according to this query were be cause of swoopers. You and everyone may want to check that out.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[quade 3]

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It's one thing for someone like Quade to be shitting down the throats of swoopers.

I completely disagree with your characterization of my position.

I admire and respect the skills and abilities of the "Pro Swoopers" such as; JC, Jay, Clint, Chuck, even JP . . . and countless others I know.

That said, I am sick and tired of the yahoos that just don't seem to have the sense that god gave a squirrel, colliding with and killing other people.

I originally came into skydiving from the world of general aviation. I had been a commercial pilot, flight instructor and into aerobatics. It is from THAT point of view and the separation of aerobatics from normal operations that makes the absolute most sense to me. I've stated my opinions already as to why.

We separate the students from the normal landing area because of the incompatability of the operation. I believe it only makes sense to separate the "aerobatic" landings from the normal ones as well.

I am certainly not "shitting" on swoopers.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The discussion is about the incompatability of turns greater than 90 degress mixed with a normal landing pattern.

It should also be extended to include the discussion of incompatible airspace below 2k for fast and slow canopies. Not to sound like a broken record here, but I actually am kind of on your guys side when it comes to some of these issues. Ask anyone who's been around me these last couple of years and they will tell you that I turn down a lot of freefall jumps because I want to swoop but I'm not a fan of swooping in traffic. I've had my close calls (some my fault, some other people's fault). You know I had my goals to get onto the PST and compete against the best (even if that means finishing near the bottom of the standings) and I knew my goals weren't going to happen if I was a training in traffic. I wish more swoopers would realize that if they really want to get better, they need to segregate themselves from traffic. But unfortunately some people insist on having and eating their cake all at once.

Anyway ... I digress ...

We need seperate bi-directional landing lanes with no fly zones in between us. One of the things I've always liked about Eloy's main "north" landing area was that the canopy pilots had to land east or west (depending on the direction the first landing canopy set). Don't like crosswind landings at Eloy? Go land in the alternate. Part of the problem is also related to people thinking they need to land into the wind. I know (I'm sure you know) this is crap. We can land into the wind, land crosswind and yes even safely land downwind (in fact we competitive swoopers are drooling when distance and speed runs are downwinders). If more DZs adopted bi-directional landing lanes (like a runway) and we seperated landing lanes from fast canopies and slow canopies, then this would be a step in the right direction and the slower more docile canopy pilots need not worry about some jackass swooper crashing into them and of course the more high performance canopy pilot knew there was less chance that a slower canopy would do something they weren't expecting (like over flying the entry gates of a swoop course).

The turn can sometimes be an issue, but it's really not the core issue we should be addressing. The core issue is airspace compatibility. Fast landing lanes for fast canopies and slower landing lanes for slower canopies. Crosswind landings (for those who don't know this) are not to be feared.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rhys 0]

I agree with the Canuck

There are some good points here being obscured by the 'comeback', ‘scratched record’ 1 liners and tangents.

I think what someone was trying to say is that a good swooper is predictable but a bad swooper is not. A good regular landing pattern flyer is predictable and a bad one/student is not.

If we are forced to use the same airspace then the safety issues will continue to grow as more and more skydivers increase their skill levels and aspire to do high performance landings. Did SDAZ not see this happening?
Is it the judgment of human beings they have relied on to keep the incidents down? It is possible to lessen the likely hood if such incidents by providing the correct facilities to suit your clients needs.

These are the questions that need to be answered here.

Swooping and hook turn landings have been a phenomenon for some time now and it is sad that SDAZ don't see the potential of the swooping market. They could buy a set of wind blades and accommodate the needs of their new clients by simply making a swooping specific area and ensuring the set up patterns for the various areas do not conflict. How hard is that….? Not very hard. They are in a dessert and own a whole bunch of planes.

In my opinion it is their (self admitted) reluctance to accommodate swoopers and other canopy only disciplines at their dropzone for ECONOMIC reasons that has made this issue arise in the first place.

How many top level teams train at AZ? I bet they want to swoop their sponsored velocities etc… are they going to stick around?

I bet we will see a swoop park in AZ before long. At SDAZ or someone else!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[USPA 0]

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"low passes are not economically viable"

For every region this works out different, but over here this is common knowledge for quite some time now. A few years ago, prices were adjusted accordingly. Some DZ's in Europe in general don't have any price differences for low and high pases at all anymore.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

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I admire and respect the skills and abilities of the "Pro Swoopers" such as; JC, Jay, Clint, Chuck, even JP . . . and countless others I know.

Um, Steve has a Pro card.

[Skydave103 0]

Everyone seems to be looking at a solution to a small part of the problem.

The problem isnt 270's, 180's, 360's etc, the problem is 2 people in the same place at the same time and performing a HP landing in traffic!!

And I don't think that is just people doing 270's thats the problem. Yes the last few accidents have been people performing 270's.

Perfroming a HP landing and proper execution of a HP landing are completely different.

In Dublin there was bad execution in heavy traffic. DP was never known as a swooper. He toggled his HP landings.

Education is a start in the right direction. After AFF how do you learn to fly your canopy? Hell even during AFF you are not taught how to fly it, just what to do when there is a problem with it.

If we are to ban 270's + then we need to also ban S-turns on final other than students!!! Also deep brakes on large canopies on final. That clogs up a landing area more than anything else, Making it difficult for everyone to land.

dave

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[billvon 2,400]

> SDAZ has effectivly given anyone who wants to practice high perfomance canopy flight the boot.

Just as Perris has given anyone who wants to fly wingsuits "the boot" by restricting them to flight east of jump run. We're not even allowed to swoop tandems! Melanie must really hate wingsuiters, to ban us like that.

"Where can we fly wingsuits?"

"Oh, east of the main jump run, don't cross the main jump run, make sure you're not on west-offset jump runs."

"Can we get our own pass?"

"Sorry, that's not economically viable."

Of course, wingsuiters generally have no problems with those restrictions (other than a few people who need to find fault with everything.) They accept that there have to be some restrictions on their activities to be compatible with "regular" skydivers, and they can't always perform their specialty in the same airspace as everyone else. Most swoopers seem to understand this as well.

[jumpwally 0]

Well put Bill, The one with the assets sets the rules, its just that simple.

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[riggerrob 558]

Basically a sound plan Mr. C.

However, may I suggest that swoopers fly their entire pattern on one side of the DZ?

Furthermore, may I suggest that the center-line/wind-line be designated a "no fly zone" for everyone?

[OSOK 0]

How about setting "gates" on all 4 sides of a landing area. The HP landings would HAVE to use one of the gates, and they can plan it accordingly as to not use the same one if they're on the same group. I'll draw a quick pic...

Ok, take a look at the pic and I'll explain a bit more.

The swooper does his 180/270/360/etc OUTSIDE of the actua landing area. He'll be spiriling down where there is no traffic at all. He would time it so when he enters the landing area he's pretty much at ground level, passing by the gate. In this case if anyone would be on top of anyone would be the standard pattern flyer while on their base leg over the swooper while on his final. The directions would all depend on winds, of course, but it would at least make it a little more 'organized' than the way it is now.

Feel free to post your thoughts... I don't know much about swooping, if anything at all.

[AFFI 0]

[quade 3]

Maybe it's just the way you drew your diagram and the way I'm looking at it, but the way I interpret is it's a collision waiting to happen and it also doesn't look like it would have to wait too long either.

The reason is that the normal traffic would be crossing the final line of the more aerobatic traffic and anyone doing a straight in would also be in danger.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jacketsdb23 45]

OSOK,

I'm not sure why you show right hand and left hand patterns crossing, thats probably not a good idea. I like the idea of having the HP turns outside of the "box" for landing but I don't think the problem is alleviated. This may lead to an 'aggressive' 90º turn by a traditional flyer landing on top of a swooper who is surfing 5' off the ground. Closing speeds for swoopers are very very fast when coming out of their turns.

I have attached a picture that incorporates OSOK's idea of turning 'outside' the main landing area and pchapman's idea of keeping everyone in the same left or right hand pattern. I realize that not all DZ's have the set-up to accommodate such patterns. I'm putting this up strictly for discussion.

The one thing I thought when I saw pchapman setup is that if a swooper needed an out it brought you right under the "traditional patterns" base or final.

That may be one reason for the right vs. left hand patterns for swoopers vs. non swoopers as Byron is doing.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[diablopilot 2]

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> SDAZ has effectivly given anyone who wants to practice high perfomance canopy flight the boot.

Just as Perris has given anyone who wants to fly wingsuits "the boot" by restricting them to flight east of jump run. We're not even allowed to swoop tandems! Melanie must really hate wingsuiters, to ban us like that.

"Where can we fly wingsuits?"

"Oh, east of the main jump run, don't cross the main jump run, make sure you're not on west-offset jump runs."

"Can we get our own pass?"

"Sorry, that's not economically viable."

Of course, wingsuiters generally have no problems with those restrictions (other than a few people who need to find fault with everything.) They accept that there have to be some restrictions on their activities to be compatible with "regular" skydivers, and they can't always perform their specialty in the same airspace as everyone else. Most swoopers seem to understand this as well.

Not true, the situations are in no way similar. People are still allowed to wingsuit at Perris, they have been specificaly forbiden to do high performance turns at SDAZ.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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I admire and respect the skills and abilities of the "Pro Swoopers" such as; JC, Jay, Clint, Chuck, even JP .

Wow. I'm all warm and fuzzy inside now.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[quade 3]

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I admire and respect the skills and abilities of the "Pro Swoopers" such as; JC, Jay, Clint, Chuck, even JP .

Wow. I'm all warm and fuzzy inside now.

As you can imagine, yes, I did include the "even" part just to tweak with you a little.

Hey man, I KNOW how long and hard you've worked to get to where you are. I know you're dedicated to doing the right thing. Like I said, I'm not worried about the folks I know like you. It's all the yahoos that don't know what they're doing that I'm worried about in general and in the pattern specifically.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,400]

>People are still allowed to wingsuit at Perris . . .

People are allowed to wingsuit. They are NOT allowed to wingsuit in the 'main' jump run areas.

>they have been specificaly forbiden to do high performance turns at SDAZ.

People are allowed to do high performance turns at SDAZ. They are NOT allowed to do certain kinds of them in the main landing areas unless they talk to the DZO first.

Quite similar. Heck, there's more flexibility in the SDAZ policy on swooping than the Perris policy on wingsuits! A lot of people have been screaming "BANNED! We're BANNED! BANNED BANNED BANNED!" but that's just a lot of hot air.

[diablopilot 2]

Really? Hot air? So why hasn't SDAZ come foward and offered any alternative to those interested in HP turns?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.