Bryan Burke - SDAZ 270 Policy notes

[ianmdrennan 2]

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What am I missing?

That moving them only solves SOME of the problem.

Referencing the stats I posted previously:

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1) 5 of the 12 (41.67%) were NON SWOOPERS.
2) 2 of the 12 (16.67%) were swoopers that would have (most likely) collided in seperate landing areas anyway.
3) 3 of the 12 (25%) were a result of swoopers that collided with another pilot who was not swooping. Seperate landing areas would, most likely, have made a difference here. This INCLUDES the jumper who did not have a collision.
4) 2 of the 12 (16.67%) appear, from reports, to be non-swoopers colliding but cannot be confirmed due to lack of information.

7 of the 12 collisions would not have been prevented by seperate landing areas. That's over 50% of the total! If you count the 16% unknown but apparently non-swooping incidents that raises it to 9 out of 12 - a whopping 75%!

3 (including the non-collision) of the 12 deaths most likely would have been prevented from seperate landing areas. And that is 3 we definitely should not discount and we should implement seperate landing areas, make no mistake - that's 3 of our brothers and sisters....but when we look at the cold hard numbers, the root problem lies elsewhere IMO.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[yardhippie 0]

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IMHO, there is no acceptable level of accidents.

Then perhaps you should reevaluate your involvement in a high risk sport such as skydiving?
-

No need to re-evaluate. I understand that there has been, and always will be accidents. Its a high risk activity, but IMHO, to have an "acceptable" level means that were ok with 2, 3, or more accidents per some time frame.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Thanatos340 1]

And since December it is 75%. 4 Incidents (6 dead), 3 incidents (4 dead) caused by HP Turns and another canopy being in their path. Clearly the old method of keep your head on a swivel isnt working.

I am not trying to blame anyone or even suggest anything. I just cant see how anyone can sit there and say they should be allowed to do 270`s or 180`s even into traffic or that there should not be any rules about when and where you can do HP Landings. That method clearly isnt working and people are dying.

Seperate landing areas sounds like a great start and would be safer for all.

[yardhippie 0]

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And since December it is 75%. 4 Incidents (6 dead), 3 incidents (4 dead) caused by HP Turns and another canopy being in their path. Clearly the old method of keep your head on a swivel isnt working.

I am not trying to blame anyone or even suggest anything. I just cant see how anyone can sit there and say they should be allowed to do 270`s or 180`s even into traffic or that there should not be any rules about when and where you can do HP Landings. That method clearly isnt working and people are dying.

Seperate landing areas sounds like a great start and would be safer for all.

dood. Love ya brother. But NONE of us are saying that a HP landing into traffic is safe or allowed.
What we are saying is that we are failing to address the entire issue, and root cause. Poor canopy piloting skills among many from just off student status to multiple thousands of jumps in some cases.
Hope to see you tonight. Lets have a beer.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[polarbear 1]

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also, has anyone looked at the type of DZ's these collisions primarily happen at? Eloy is a big DZ, dublin had a boogie with a lot of people attending, collisions on opening becauase there were many other people in the air, all these things have something in common...many many people in the air at the same time and all trying to land or occupy the same spot at the same time

Another common factor is that at all of these incidents, people were jumping in airspace occupied by jumpers they don't regularly jump with. It's easy to be predictable when you're with people who know you...evryone at my DZ knows what my canopy looks like and how I land; I know what there's looks like and how they land; it's easy to be predictable. Traffic issues are a non-occurrance.

Fill the air with people who are not familiar with each other and no one knows who is doing what. That really ups the danger.

Maybe small canopies should be sold with a jar of tar and a bag of feathers...that way we can all tar and feather ourselves and save everyone else the hassle of doing it for us.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Didn't we tar and feather your ass all the way back to New Mexico? Hold on a sec ... maybe that's why I'm back in the frozen tundra (Canad'ia) instead of swooping the pond (where yes it's far far far away from where the old so called main landing area is and where you're faced with a long walk back if you're not lucky enough to have someone drive out to the pond to pick you up).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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What Eloy has done is basically said no hop and pops because of the cost. I understand that. They have also said no turns over 180.

Wrong on both counts.
Bryan said no turns over 180 in the two main landing areas. When i was there this winter the swooping pond was not considered part of the north area. Unless I am reading this wrong 270s, 360s, 720s etc. will be tolerated in that area as long as the maneuvers do not impact upon the north landing area traffic pattern.
Brian also said plane loads of low passes are not economical and single low passes are not practical when more than two aircraft are in the air. Is this any different than it has always been?

I do have a question for Betsy. When logistics allow for low passes, are high performance landings still restricted to the pond area or are they allowed in the north landing area for those on the h/p pass?

[Thanatos340 1]

And it comes across to Non-Swoopers like myself as you guys saying you have the right to Swoop whenever and whereever you want, that scares the shit out some of us.

And that if you Pull a 270 from above me and Kill me, It is my fault cause I shouldnt have been there.

I know you and Ian better than that and Know that is NOT what you are saying but it does come across that way.

All I keep reading is that "This isnt a Swooper Problem". Sorry, In 3 out the 4 incidents since December, It was 100% a Swooper problem (Someone did a 270 and there was another Canopy in thier way).

The Students or Low Timers are not as scary because we atleast have a Chance of avoiding them. they are not coming at us at such a high rate of speed. We atleast have a Chance of seeing them and avoiding them. It is the swooper that setsup above you that you have no chance at all of avoiding. That is what many people are now afraid of.

And Hippy.. I will Buy the beer.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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And it comes across to Non-Swoopers like myself as you guys saying you have the right to Swoop whenever and whereever you want, that scares the shit out some of us.

And that if you Pull a 270 from above me and Kill me, It is my fault cause I shouldnt have been there.

Not sure why you’re coming to some of your conclusions? Where are all these evil swoopers who are blaming you non-swoopers coming from? Some of us swoopers do think that pulling the big turn in traffic is rolling the dice (and wish more people would use better judgement). But some of us swoopers also know that the same dangers exist in a 180 like the 270, yet some of you non-swoopers seem to think that by banning the 270 you’re all of a sudden going to be flying in your safe “la-la” space. I guess some of us swoopers are more concerned about a knee-jerk reaction and we fear that if more and more DZs will adopt the “you can’t swoop on a regular loads oh and while we’re at it, we don’t think hop n’ pops are economically viable” things we are seeing here, that our discipline of choice will go the way of the Doe-Doe birds. That’s my concern.

Give me my hop n’ pops (charging me a fair price for the service) and my dedicated swoop lanes, and I’m a happy camper. I sure as hell don’t want to share the same concurrent airspace with someone else.

PS: Yesterday’s fatality in FL had nothing to do with a big turn and everything to do with poor canopy control decisions. People doing stupid things under canopy is the root cause of the problems in this sport and it can happen to anyone who becomes complacent regardless of whether or not they are a swooper or whether or not they have the experience or are some newbie. Complacency Kills …

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dharma1976 0]

were these 270s right hand or left hand

although with SDAZ's left and right hand pattern...it would matter really

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[quade 3]

Why people try to argue the policy is beyond me.

It's SDAZ's property. If you want to jump there, then follow the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then jump somewhere else.

Simple really.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[dragon2 0]

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Where are all these evil swoopers who are blaming you non-swoopers coming from?

Oh I've had that muttered/said/yelled at me a few times. Cause I fly a big-ass spectre 135 after a wingsuit jump and I fly a standard student-type pattern around the field (900 ft, 600ft, 250 ft or so, with no s-turns etc), I sometimes get "in the way" of some of our AFF instructors who want to swoop. Well boohoo. They want me to fly a much tighter (= lower) pattern because I have plenty of jumps. Well I don't want to. and I shouldn't have to. I have absolutely nothing against swoopers, hell I video most of the competitions here, but don't tell me that I need to adjust how I fly so that someone can get his swoop on. BTW other jumpers are just fine swooping with me flying around them, it's just 1 or 2 that have a problem with me. Tough luck

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

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Why people try to argue the policy is beyond me.

It's SDAZ's property. If you want to jump there, then follow the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then jump somewhere else.

Simple really.

x2

[mnskydiver688 0]

All this makes a Cessna DZ not seem so bad.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Where are all these evil swoopers who are blaming you non-swoopers coming from?

Oh I've had that muttered/said/yelled at me a few times. Cause I fly a big-ass spectre 135 after a wingsuit jump and I fly a standard student-type pattern around the field (900 ft, 600ft, 250 ft or so, with no s-turns etc), I sometimes get "in the way" of some of our AFF instructors who want to swoop.

Is this a generic main landing area you speak of that is supposed to accommodate the entire load? If yes, then those people are dicks for yelling at you. As the lower less maneuverable canopy, you should have the right of way and those people have no business yelling at you if they have to abort their swoop. But if you’re over-flying a dedicated swooping area, well I’m sorry but you are the one who is showing poor canopy control. These other people still need to abort their swoops, but they have every right to be mad at you if you’re over-flying a place that you shouldn’t be in the first place. It’s one thing for a student to make a mistake and put themselves where they shouldn’t be. But it’s another thing for an experience person. So what is it? Generic main landing area? Or a high performance swoop lane?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

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Where are all these evil swoopers who are blaming you non-swoopers coming from?

Oh I've had that muttered/said/yelled at me a few times. Cause I fly a big-ass spectre 135 after a wingsuit jump and I fly a standard student-type pattern around the field (900 ft, 600ft, 250 ft or so, with no s-turns etc), I sometimes get "in the way" of some of our AFF instructors who want to swoop. Well boohoo. They want me to fly a much tighter (= lower) pattern because I have plenty of jumps. Well I don't want to. and I shouldn't have to. I have absolutely nothing against swoopers, hell I video most of the competitions here, but don't tell me that I need to adjust how I fly so that someone can get his swoop on. BTW other jumpers are just fine swooping with me flying around them, it's just 1 or 2 that have a problem with me. Tough luck

If someone yells at you for getting in the way and you are flying the pattrern the way you say you are (i.e. not crossing the converging centerling, no "s" turns) than they are way out of line, and any respectable, competitive (not talking beer line, like actually compete) swooper is going to back that up 110%. however, the attitude of I don't want to, I shouldn't have to, tough luck, is just as irresponsible as the ones that are yelling at you.

It's not about being right, it's about being alive.
It's about communicating, and finding solutions to the problem. those types of attitudes don't help the problem, they compund it.

If in the end I am right and your wrong, or right and I am wrong, but we are both dead, than it really dosn't make any differance.

[dragon2 0]

It's just a big field, no special area for swoopers. There's the peas + tuffet, sometimes a target for swoopers/accuracy but regular jumpers land there too and generally I don't. Sometimes there's 2 flags for a swoop lane somewhere on our field, generally everyone not swooping avoids those. But it's still just one field, not divided in any way.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 0]

And how would you find a common solution for this, pray? I get yelled at for "ruining someone's swoop" because I fly a predictable, boring pattern over our common landing area. It's just the one field. Getting yelled at for doing something that is not basically wrong doesn't help find a solution either. A lot of jumpers fly the way I do, it's just the wingsuiters that end up close to the AFF I's, who'd otherwise have the field to themselves. I asked a few other ("real") swoopers about this, they said to ignore those guys. But I still don't like getting yelled at and called names.

Edit: I did try and talk to one, see if we could get a solution, I just got "You don't understand" and he walked away. Very helpful...

I say, if you really want the field to yourself, do a hopnpop, although this is so common here that you WON'T get the field all to yourself actually, because we have so many swoopers/accuracy jumpers and a few regular jumpers who just like hopnpops. However generally there is never trouble during a low jumprun, it's SOME of the freefall guys who want to swoop at the end.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Well it sounds like these other jumpers are just being dicks then. Any worthy canopy pilot should be able to do what is required (ie: hang in brakes or choose an alternate lane) in order to let someone else below them pass especially when we're talking about a big open field and not talking about a dedicated swoop course.

I find it funny that a wing suiter would be beating the instructors down? Tandems yes, but Instructors? Are you sucking it low? Just kidding, your pull altitudes are none of my business and has nothing to do with this thread.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[superstu 0]

this isn't directly directed at you bill, but your post was the last i looked at.

another concern of mine are jumpers that are loaded in the "lighter" category of maybe 1.4 and below opening up at the same altitude as everyone on the load yet they decide to spiral right over the landing area (very unpredictable pattern) and get below everyone then THEY create the hazard on themselves and to others. yes, the low person has the right away but that does NOT give them the right to take up the whole sky and create a hazard to themselves and others that are above them. if you don't feel comfortable with having people above you then maybe help the situation by sitting in brakes for a little bit practiciing your flat turns while you let the little pocket parachutes do there thing. now i'm not saying do this all the way to the ground but maybe until you reach the begining of your landing pattern which generally starts any where from 700-1000'. shit i do this all the time when i pull high and catch back up to tandems or students that pull at 4.5k, i'll sit in brakes and enjoy the scenery for a little bit and let them land so they're not in my way and i'm not in theirs. take the initiative apon your self to fly safer and be less of a threat.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

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It's just a big field, no special area for swoopers. There's the peas + tuffet, sometimes a target for swoopers/accuracy but regular jumpers land there too and generally I don't. Sometimes there's 2 flags for a swoop lane somewhere on our field, generally everyone not swooping avoids those. But it's still just one field, not divided in any way.

It sounds like, in your perticular situation, where could be a fairly easy solution. you Have a "big field" perhaps the DZ could more clearly define landig areas for standard patterns, accuracy, swooping etc. as it sounds like you, fortunatly, have room to do so. Maybe bringing your concerns up with your DZO and brain storming some PRATICAL ideas on how to solve it will make things gravey. I have found through experiance that birnging up genuine concerns, but having some reasonable ideas on how to solve them goes a long ways. However, simply stating that something is a problem and then expecting someone else to solve it is rarely productive.

I jump at a DZ that has a relatively small LZ with very few outs. In the summer we are turing a caravan and 2 182s. We have a defined swooping lane, a pea pit and some open grass. We have a good population of "swoopers" and you would be hard pressed to find anyone on either side of the fence that don't get along.
I think that the biggest contributing factor at our DZ is willingness to talk about problems without getting our feelers hurt and compromise a resolution.
I think that most DZO's are willing to try to accomidate. You might have to make some consessions (i.e. starting your downwind 100ft lower) but everyone else must be willing to do the same (designatins a standard set up direction for swoopers that dosn't interfer w/ standard pattern) but the key is the communication.

[dragon2 0]

I generally pull at 3.5 k or so, since I fly camera I don't like to open lower. I have no real idea why we keep bumping into each other, but we seem to do it every now and then. I do know that sometimes the AFF I's come back from a longish spot in full brakes, cut into my pattern below 1000ft and then get angry at me for being there. Or one guy seems to have trouble flying past me and getting below me when I'm in the holding area.

When I fly my wingsuit solo i usually work on backflying and rolls and loops, so not a very low fallrate. I generally don't hang around in brakes unless the spot warrants it or I'm filming someone with a low wl.

I really don't know, sounds like we do it on purpose

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 0]

We did have/sometimes still have separate areas for the last load of the day, which is in front of the hangar instead of on the big field. This was necessary because we got a bit too close to each other in this much smaller area and the swoopers usually land downwind and we don't and not all of the swoopers did either (!). Oops... swooping from 2 different sides was.... interesting....

Problem was, the swoopers want to wow the crowd so they get to land in front of the hangar/bar, so the rest had to land "out", cross barbed wire (sometimes live wire!) and sometimes cowpats, and walk ourselves back. We didn't altogether agree with that! We felt if you want to land any other way than into the wind YOU should be the one to walk.

The regular jumpers feel the swoopers should be the ones to walk, the swoopers feel otherwise. Well not all of them, but....

Then again, so far it really hasn't been much of a problem, besides our personal vendetta

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

I'll walk to swoop any day of the week. I think anyone interested in SWOOPING (Stu, Steve, Ian, Sparks, JP) would agree.

Unfortunatly it sounds like the ppl at your DZ are more intrested in showing off

[Spizzzarko 0]

Hi,

This is addressed to all. I find it interesting that there is now discussion about swoopers yelling at some dude with a 135 because he flies a big pattern. That is interesting because the good swoopers fly a big rectangular pattern too. I start a down wind around 1800-1900' a base around 1300-1400, and a turn to final at 1100 or so. I think a lot of swoopers will agree with me that flying a pattern will give them MUCH better results than flying erraticly. I think there needs to be a deliniation in this argument on wheather it is the pattern or teh turn that is killing people.