Bandit Jumps and finding a pilot

[masterblaster72 0]

Hi all,

I've long had the idea of doing a bandit jump into a park (early morning of course) near my parents house in Philly.

While I don't have the demo license and probably won't be able to get permission from the authorities to do it, I do have confidence in my skills and believe I would have no problem landing in the large park (given good conditions and the right spot, of course).

My question is: Is it possible for a NOTAM to be filed without permission from the township for the park, and is it possible to do a bandit jump without the pilot being at great risk of a fine or revocation of privileges?

I realize that I would be facing penalties if caught doing this (though I don't think I would be spotted at 5:30-6am in the morning in that neighborhood), and I'm willing to confront the potential consequences. This is something I've dreamed of doing many times, and doing it would literally be a dream come true.

I have searched for "bandit jumps" and "demo jumps" and have posted a similar thread about a year ago, but have not found an answer to this specific question (and I'm sure this question might raise many others), which is why I'm posting.

Thanks.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Andy_Copland 0]

Early morning aircraft emergency like an engine stall and you just happened to have your rig on during the site seeing tour with your pilot buddy

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Mike111 0]

call me grumpy but wouldn't a more potent question be what effect will this have on skydiving's public image if it goes wrong?

Selfish isn't it? I mean most think we are nuts as it is let alone more potentially bad publicity.

I could be wrong though.

[DougH 270]

If you need to ask advice about an illegal activity on the internet then you most likely aren't cut out to pull it off...

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[masterblaster72 0]

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call me grumpy but wouldn't a more potent question be what effect will this have on skydiving's public image if it goes wrong?

Selfish isn't it? I mean most think we are nuts as it is let alone more potentially bad publicity.

I could be wrong though.

Yes, I thought about the selfish implications and I honestly think that if this jump were to go wrong, you'd still be able to skydive unhindered by what others may think.

I think it is my reputation would be most damaged, not yours or skydivers in general.

But perhaps I am wrong and out of line; I am posting here humbly and to learn, and maybe there's something I'm missing. If so, pardon my naivete.

@DougH:

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If you need to ask advice about an illegal activity on the internet then you most likely aren't cut out to pull it off...

I've seen similar questions posted before, that's why I figured I'd ask. It's not like I plan on doing this very soon. It will probably be quite some time until I do this, at which point most people will have forgotten that I made this post.

Of course, PM's are welcome too.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[fastphil 0]

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If you need to ask advice about an illegal activity on the internet then you most likely aren't cut out to pull it off...

Yep, I agree...

[airtwardo 6]

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I am posting here humbly and to learn, and maybe there's something I'm missing. If so, pardon my naivete.

Fuck 'em all...GIT ER DONE!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[winsor 187]

Quote

Hi all,

I've long had the idea of doing a bandit jump into a park (early morning of course) near my parents house in Philly.

While I don't have the demo license and probably won't be able to get permission from the authorities to do it, I do have confidence in my skills and believe I would have no problem landing in the large park (given good conditions and the right spot, of course).

My question is: Is it possible for a NOTAM to be filed without permission from the township for the park, and is it possible to do a bandit jump without the pilot being at great risk of a fine or revocation of privileges?

I realize that I would be facing penalties if caught doing this (though I don't think I would be spotted at 5:30-6pm in the morning in that neighborhood), and I'm willing to confront the potential consequences. This is something I've dreamed of doing many times, and doing it would literally be a dream come true.

I have searched for "bandit jumps" and "demo jumps" and have posted a similar thread about a year ago, but have not found an answer to this specific question (and I'm sure this question might raise many others), which is why I'm posting.

Thanks.

I would forget about planning to do a demo-type jump if you are not PRO rated and going into some kind of official shindig.

Of course, skydivers don't like to fly, so wearing a parachute when doing so is only a matter of common sense.

If, while along for an airplane ride, there is a loss of power and abrupt change of attitude, it would be easy to assume that it was some kind of mechanical failure that warranted getting out while there was still plenty of altitude. Also, in the event of mechanical failure, reducing the load on the airplane makes it just that much more likely that it will be able to glide somewhere that it is possible to make a safe landing.

This is an obvious misunderstanding of the pilot wanting to show you the park by your parent's house, but it is better to err in favor of aviation safety, eh?


Blue skies,

Winsor

[mktoson 0]

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I think it is my reputation would be most damaged, not yours or skydivers in general.

The pilot would be held more responsible for the act than you. Their feet would be to the fire, not yours.

So far, this is the oldest I've ever been.

[airtwardo 6]

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This is an obvious misunderstanding of the pilot wanting to show you the park by your parent's house, but it is better to err in favor of aviation safety, eh?

Don't ya just HATE when that hapens?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[GrabGrass 0]

Quote

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I think it is my reputation would be most damaged, not yours or skydivers in general.

The pilot would be held more responsible for the act than you. Their feet would be to the fire, not yours.

Which is why you need one that either doesn't HAVE a license...or is drunker than you are the night before, when ya plan it!

~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

[iamsam 0]

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the right spot, of course).

Plan for a bad one

but what do I know

[popsjumper 2]

This is one of the reasons why I am pushing the aviation industry so hard - completely automated private aircraft; no pilot is needed.

Set the controls to land back at the airport, jump, go get the plane at the airport, repeat.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tombuch 0]

It seems like a foolish idea to me.

Your profile says you have just over 300 jumps, you live in Manhattan, and your home DZ is Crosskeys. My first point is that based on your experience, you are not even close to ready to set-up and execute your own demo. Second point is you should talk with an instructor, S&TA, or experienced demo jumper at your own drop zone to get a feel for what you are getting yourself into. And finally, if your proposed jump is in an urban area anyplace near NYC, or within the class B rings of NY or Philadelphia, I’d say abandon the bandit concept right away and for all time. It could really cause havoc and trouble for the industry as a whole.

Obviously there are FAA issues to worry about, but in this day and age of terrorism and related fear mongering, a parachute jump can really raise the hackles of local police. Avoid any bandit jump in any urban area. Please. And if you do a legal jump in these areas, at least let the local PD know about your plans. Local exhibition jumpers may know of additional contacts you need to make to satisfy the Orwellian named Homeland Security Department.

Now, as to what is required (briefly):

In all cases you will need to file a NOTAM. That is simply a notice to airmen that you plan to jump. It’s just so pilots can avoid your area when the jump is happening, or contact ATC on a specific frequency for advisories. Typically a NOTAM is filed with the local ATC facility, or a local Flight Service Station, and nobody checks where you are going or what you are up to. The location is expressed in terms of radial distance from a nav aid, and often the person you file with won’t know where that is, or what specific regulation covers the jump, so there are frequently no questions asked at that point. You will need to list the name of the pilot and aircraft ID, so there will be a paper trail for later prosecution if you get caught.

If the jump is in open area, not a congested area, not an open assembly of people, and not in controlled airspace the NOTAM may be all you will need, as far as the FAA is concerned. If any of those not’s apply, then you will need FAA authorization. That’s a much bigger deal. See 105.21 – 105.25. So what is a “congested area or open assembly of persons?” See FAA Advisory Circular 105-2c that is included in the back of the SIM.

Your best bet, as I said at the beginning, is to chat with your S&TA or a local exhibition jumper to review the requirements of making legal exhibition jumps. And be very careful about the whole process. Any problems will easily trace back to the pilot, and both you and that pilot could face civil prosecution.

For a sense of what the airspace looks like and what ATC controls are in place, see http://skyvector.com/. That site allows you to plug in the designator of a nearby airport and pull up a sectional chart. If you don’t know how to read a sectional, chat with a pilot or you S&TA.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[masterblaster72 0]

Very informative, thank you for your thoughtful response.

Looks pretty much like this can't happen without great risk to the pilot.

Will have a word with the S&TA at my DZ, and will have a look at the link you posted.

Thanks again.

edited to add: Had a look at the link and the area I want to jump in is within the first and second rings around Philly airport. I take it that this qualifies as being within the "Class B Rings" of Philadelphia airport as you mentioned, yes?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[riggerrob 558]

Start by getting a coach to improve your canopy skills to the point where you can pass the accuracy part of a PRO rating.
All the numbers become gibberish when you have wires along one side of the landing area, with a tall building on the second side, a freeway on the third side and a fast-flowing river on the fourth side.
Oh!
And that tall building is creating weird gusts and eddies ...
Hee!
Hee!

[airtwardo 6]

http://www4.passur.com/ewr.html


Here's a link that might also be of interest.

Click on the 80 mile range so Philly is included...

Looks like no air traffic problems to MEEEE!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 3]

Reminds me of a story . . .

http://futurecam.com/area51.html

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[azdiver 0]

get someone with a powered para glider to take you up for a hop and pop. know some base guys that do that. not sure if that would be illegal though. don't think you have to have a pilots lic to fly one, but ask someone that has one.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[PhreeZone 15]

Powered Paragliders/Ultralights that will hold two people require an instructor rating from the FAA since they weigh more then the weight limit for the Ultralight class allows. All pilots including Ultralight will be getting into the sport rating here in the next few years. Jumps from those ultralights are against FAA regs since the only people allowed to "ride" are students, they are not allowed to be flown for commercial operations.

Besides it takes forever to climb in one of those to more then 2000 feet and I'm not sure I'd be wanting to loiter in busy airspace like Philly at a few thousand feet with out a transponder and radio to talk to control.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[masterblaster72 0]

Thanks for the non-condescending responses -- another poster PM'd the same suggestion earlier today.

I found a glider/ultralight club in Philly, might go there to ask around, though I'm not sure if it's possible because this place is located at least 30 miles from where I want to do this jump, and I don't think an ultralight or similar aircraft could hack a 60+ mile round-trip even on a full tank.

I definitely wouldn't do this kind of jump from just a couple of thousand feet AGL.

And PhreeZone, you're right about the potentially busy airspace (albeit not that busy at 5:30am) -- my parents' house is within ten miles of Philadelphia International Airport.

@quade -- that was an awesome story, thanks for sharing. I'm envious!

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[quade 3]

Uh . . . don't be envious . . . ya might wanna re-read the last line.

I have some experience out there and up there, I'm a decent researcher and I guess a fairly convincing writer because of it, but that was pure fiction.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DBCOOPER 1]

Where in Philly?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[DougH 270]

They flashed your brain with that MIB thing didn't they.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[PhreeZone 15]

Ultalights are limited to 5 gallons of fuel, the total range on one depends on the winds but the guy I know who has one won't go more then about 45 miles unless he knows the winds are perfect. With an average cruise speed around that of a car you are looking at a 30 minute flight one way. To jump at 5:30 thats a 5 AM take off. Ultralights are not equiped to fly at night and are actually prohibited from doing this. I'd say you are going to be out of luck for that option also. East to west flights start around 6:00am, West coast to east flights are landing at that same time frame also.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com