Am i Right or Wrong?

[someday 0]

Some guy with more experience then me (about 700 jumps) was telling me about how he did not jump with an altimeter or an AAD and the reason was because of his high performance canopy and when i asked him why he doesnt where an altimeter he said, "because i have my eyes" he also said he wears an audible. He also said he doesnt wear a visual altimeter because it will make him look at it and not what he should be looking at when swooping "the ground" and that canopy flight was his favorite part of skydiving.

he said at 5500 his audible beeps and at 3500 it beeps and after that its up to him when to pull. he said he has good eyes and can tell when hes "getting close"
now after that i said "so you don't fully know your altitude" and i also said "if i was un-aware of my altitude i would pull immediately because A. Thats what i was taught to do, and B. just thinking about it, if i didn't know how high i was, i don't wanna trust myself, not yet at least, things move fast and id hate to be wrong" sure you get ground rush but i dont have enough time in the air to do that...

he continued to tell me that i was absolutely wrong and that i could put other skydivers lives in jeopardy by doing that,

so my question is , in a hypothetical, i have become un-aware of my altitude. Am i suppose to trust my perception and i guess pull when i get scared, or am i suppose to do what i was taught in AFF and pull as soon as i become un-aware (assuming i have lost my alti in mid air or something)

i think you guys understand what im getting at?

i dont think this would happen, but then again im new so ill ask the pros i think ill always jump with an alti?

[DSE 3]

I know several guys that are visually aware of their altitude and don't wear alti's, and while I'll probably get flamed for saying it, I think all skydivers should become visually acute when it comes to altitude awareness. Personally, I'm trying to develop this skill; it's not *that* hard. Not suggesting you jump without an alti; just saying that you were given eyes for a reason. IMO, an alti eventually should be like a Cypres; a backup system for common sense and awareness.

Bear in mind that what you know at 60 jumps will seem silly and almost wonderfully meaningless when you've added another zero to that number.

That said, if you're in a "pull immediately" mode if you don't know your altitude, he's right. You put others in jeopardy.
I'm not a swooper, so can't comment about looking at an alti while swooping, but I'd think you'd want to be visually in touch with the ground, not an instrument.

[raymond_jones 0]

he might not have one because of the price of "high performance canopies" any other reason than that is poo. just because you have an altimeter doesn't mean you have to look at it. as for the rest, rely on what your instructers and sims taught/recomend to you. you may not always have your altimeter due to different reasons, reguardless it's your ass on the line, do what is necessary to survive. I perfer audibles myself, but wear both and "use my eyes", and im still walking.

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

[someday 0]

roger that,

during training my instructors said that if you ever become unaware, pull.


but i guess its a training thing..

i need more airtime thats for sure..groundrush helps but i need to learn how to do it i guess

[Peej 0]

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I'm not a swooper, so can't comment about looking at an alti while swooping, but I'd think you'd want to be visually in touch with the ground, not an instrument.

wrt this i think using a combination of a digital alti and your eyes are the way to go. I use my alti as a guide for set-up and turn initiation and then my eyes to guide me through the dive and tell me whether i'm low or not. i don't think anybody actually stares at an alti right the way through a swoop.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[phoenixlpr 0]

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so my question is , in a hypothetical, i have become un-aware of my altitude. Am i suppose to trust my perception and i guess pull when i get scared, or am i suppose to do what i was taught in AFF and pull as soon as i become un-aware (assuming i have lost my alti in mid air or something)

Let me give you a practical example. It has happened with one of our student. He has a freefall jump from 3000-4000m, so over 15s fall.Wind has blown his goggles up so he could not see his altimeter anymore. He "lost" his visual altimeter. That is a situation where you should give opening signal and pull.

[gofast_ER 0]

There have been a few times where I jumpd without an altimeter for whatever reason. I just use the people I am jumping with for a refrence when to pull. They pull, I pull. Too easy

I may not agree with what you have to say but i'll defend to the death your right to say it.

[davelepka 4]

Your pal with 700 jumps is a douche. He's trying to be cool, and the sad part is that the only one he can lay his bullshit on is a guy with 60 jumps.

Use an AAD and a visual altimiter on every jump. The more you know, the better off you are.

[AFFI 0]

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he continued to tell me that i was absolutely wrong and that i could put other skydivers lives in jeopardy by doing that

Elaborate please…

You are "absolutely wrong"to deploy if you do not know your altitude?

Put lives in jeopardy by deploying high because someone still in freefall might collide with you?

These are interesting thoughts, and I will discuss these issues with some instructors with more experience than I, but off the top of my head:

Don’t make alterations to your survival skills at the advice of a single source of information (especially by some super swooper with 700 jumps that has it all figured out or even a rating holder for that matter) without cross referencing and seeking out the advice of others, which is what you seem to be doing, so that is smart – good job.
As you progress in the sport always cross reference and study before you make those alterations to your foundation of survival skills to better ensure that you are making the right decisions. Your understanding of the varying aspects of the sport WILL evolve, just take it slowly and make the right decisions where your learning curve is concerned, after all, there are lives at steak, yours and your fellow jumpers (ummmm, steak)…

At 60 jumps, the average skydiver is at the point where they are just beginning to get things figured out (and will receive an abundance of “advice” from sport jumpers). This is a good time to begin to train yourself to learn to recognize the difference between 10k, 5k or even 3k without a visual altimeter. The way you do that is to use your visual altimeter in addition to looking down at the ground, over time this will assist in developing your ability to visually estimate your altitude in the event your altimeter ever becomes unavailable for whatever reason. When you are on the plane riding to altitude, make it a habit to check your altimeter, and then look down out of the window and in time you will get better at this skill.
For me, 3k is when ground rush really begins to become apparent.

If you did not know your altitude and did not have any sense of judgment as to how to estimate your altitude visually and decided to deploy, I would not say that that is a “bad” decision and most definitely not "absolutely wrong". If a jumper is totally confused and had no idea what their altitude is, an open parachute sounds like a pretty good idea to me...
Especially if you are doing a solo, but if you are jumping with others you have their altitude awareness available to you as someone mentioned. I have done a coach jump with someone with only 20 jumps whose altimeter flew off at 10k, I saw her eyes get big and nearly panicked - I simply docked and shared my altimeter with her, I smiled and gave her a "relax" signal - letting the rest of the TLO’s (Targeted Learning Objectives) go out the window because at this point her biggest concern was altitude awareness and it was a great learning experience to learn to remain calm when the unexpected happens and to learn to improvise and trust your fellow jumpers.

Keep in mind, although it is a big sky, remember that there are others in freefall behind you.
The addition of an audible may be a good decision for you at this point but I believe that it is a poor decision to become totally reliant on a single source of judging your altitude in the event that any of your devices ever fail.

The idea is to remain as safe as possible and not become a hazard to others while you are tackling the learning curves associated with skydiving…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[koppel 3]

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he continued to tell me that i was absolutely wrong and that i could put other skydivers lives in jeopardy by doing that,

Well if you consider the fact of exit seperation then there should be no-one to put in jepordy as their path in free-fall should not cross yours.

If there someone on a trajectory that will cross yours then there has been a failure of exit seperation and you were already in jepordy.

So for my 0.02c at his stage anytime you lose height awareness with nothing to reference it from (ie not enough freefall time to recognise what height your at) then PULL. It is the first rule of skydiving. When you find you ahve the experience to recognise your height approximately you can decide whether to pull immediately or to take it down to a level you are comfortable, but it is always your perogative to save your own life.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[darkwing 4]

I have about 500 jumps without any sort of altitude sensor device. While the eye is good, there are serious problems if you go to a new dropzone. My eye was well tuned for home, but not elsewhere.

My view is that the more tools you have the less likely you are to mess up. I prefer two audibles and one wrist mount.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[skypuppy 1]

I know many highly trained individuals that didn't use altimeters. Even the Cdn 4-way team at one point didn't wear altimeters because they were a distraction and could cost them points at the bottom end of their working time.

At the Nationals a big thing was made of it and they had to put them back on, but they used black electrical tape to cover the face and thus render them non-distracting again, anyway.

I have 1-200 jumps without an altimeter. It's not really difficult. The main reason I started wearing one again was for when I worked with students - for THEM to see.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[beowulf 1]

I have done jumps with out a visual altimeter. On one jump I lost it somewhere in freefall. Not having an altimeter is not the end of the world. But our vision is no where near as accurate as an altimeter. I know there are people who will argue against this till they can argue no more. I stand by this, human vision is just not that accurate in assessing distances. Especially with as little reference that is available under canopy. It is much better to have an altimeter and your vision. Your vision should be a back up for your altimeter, because the altimeter isn't perfect and can malfunction.

[rehmwa 2]

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Your pal with 700 jumps is a douche. He's trying to be cool, and the sad part is that the only one he can lay his bullshit on is a guy with 60 jumps.

Use an AAD and a visual altimiter on every jump. The more you know, the better off you are.

Dave's right, he's always Dave.

(I have an audible, a visual altimeter, AND eyeballs. Anyone that says one automatically precludes another really is a douche)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Some guy with more experience then me...... he did not jump with an altimeter or an AAD and the reason was because of his high performance canopy........doesnt wear a visual altimeter because it will make him look at it and not what he should be looking at when swooping "the ground" and that canopy flight was his favorite part of skydiving.

Rewrite - "some guy with a few jumps and no brains....is an idiot and can't afford an altimeter or AAD and thinks he can justify it to someone that doesn't know better....is trying to stroke his own ego because he thinks skydiving will make him the man he isn't in real life.... posing (swoops so fast the AAD is an issue?).....more posing.... not even unique posing, just more of the same crap we see from newbies with a lot less than 700 jumps......"

He's a complete idiot. He did manage to attempt to impress a low number jumper and get out the words "high performance canopy", and "swooping", and "doesn't need an altimeter" all in one conversation.

Never since some moronic drunk in a bar tried to impress a skanky barfly has someone fed this type of information to someone that deserves better.

Why is this sport filling up with fully grown adolescents lately instead of adults?

someday - glad you are around to recognize the right thing. Learn to use your eyes. But keep an altimeter with you anyway.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NeedToJump 0]

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There have been a few times where I jumpd without an altimeter for whatever reason. I just use the people I am jumping with for a refrence when to pull. They pull, I pull. Too easy

I know three very experienced skydivers who were jumping with each other and each had decided to rely on the others for when to break off and pull. They all had Cypres fires and are lucky to still be alive.

Please do NOT rely on someone else for when you need to save your own life.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[yardhippie 0]

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Some guy with more experience then me (about 700 jumps) was telling me about how he did not jump with an altimeter or an AAD and the reason was because of his high performance canopy and when i asked him why he doesnt where an altimeter he said, "because i have my eyes" he also said he wears an audible.

Im not going to discuss the AAD poriton b/c there are some unique issue with HP landings and AADs, and well I'd rather just talk about the alti.

Our sport has many tools. How you choose to use them is ultimately up to you. There are some tools that many feel are mandatory, I'd say the alti is one of them. Lets see Ive got
that many jumps. Ive made a few without an alti. Im still here. No problem. After a while your bodys internal clock will learn when you should be pulling, your eyes will tell ya, "Im close to the ground". It can be done with repeatabilty and consistancy. I focus on freeflying, thats about 55 seconds or so of freefall at our DZ, but when I lead a tracking dive that could be up to 70 seconds (depending on a few things) Even though Im on my back, with no reference to my altitude, my internal clock goes off around 55 seconds. So yea, after many hundreds of jumps you can survive.

But I think its an extremely BAD idea. Lets continue with my tracking dive (hypothetically). If I didnt have a visual alti, and Im tracking on my back. My audible goes off at a given altitude (usually 6k for most tracks), then again at 3500. Well my internal clock is already off, i deploy somwhere below 3500'. My Velo loaded at 2.15 spins up and now Im on my back again with a piece of shit above my head thats hurling me toward the earth. Maybe I can kick out, maybe I have 1000' to work with, maybe not. I have no way of telling if Im at my hard deck or not. how do I know I have a little extra time or Im outta time. I dont. So if I fought it to long, Im dead. End of story.

If a visual alti "distracts" you from your skydive, or your swoop, you might want to check into your ADD (not AAD). Airplane pilots have to watch a large amount of gauges, AND land their planes. It can be done.

Plus, any attitude that lets one say "I dont need a visual alti", is not the kind of attitude we neet to allow to remain in our sport. Just like seat belts, you dont need em till they save your life.

Fly safe and live!

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[AFFI 0]

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I have an audible, a visual altimeter, AND eyeballs. Anyone that says one automatically precludes another really is a douche

Sooooo:
Anyone that says one automatically prevents another is a jet of water applied to bathe an organ?

pre•clude
1. To make impossible, as by action taken in advance; prevent. See Synonyms at prevent.
2. To exclude or prevent (someone) from a given condition or activity: Modesty precludes me from accepting the honor.

douche
1. a jet or current of water, sometimes with a dissolved medicating or cleansing agent, applied to a body part, organ, or cavity for medicinal or hygienic purposes.
2. the application of such a jet.
3. an instrument, as a syringe, for administering it.
4. a bath administered by such a jet.
–verb (used with object)

[diablopilot 2]

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Your pal with 700 jumps is a douche. He's trying to be cool, and the sad part is that the only one he can lay his bullshit on is a guy with 60 jumps.

Use an AAD and a visual altimiter on every jump. The more you know, the better off you are.

Ditto.


But do start making yourself familiar with what 2500 looks like compared with 5000. That's not too difficult.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[PrairieDoug 0]

I base my equipment selection not just on what I can get by with if everything goes according to plan, but also what will help me get out of a jam. Executing emergency procedures requires accurate altitude information under conditions where every second is precious and judgment is subject to error.

Doug

[DontPanic 0]

A side of this argument that I don't see anybody bringing up is that it is important to develop a coarse sense of altitude visually as a cross-check to your altimeter. Altimeter's fail.

If you've lost altitude awareness, and don't feel you know what altitude you are at, you should probably pull. Conversely, your altimeter may be telling you 12,000 feet, but you may really be at 8,000 feet. I think it's an important skill to work on to be able to roughly tell the difference between 3,000, 6,000, or 9,000 feet.

[rehmwa 2]

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I have an audible, a visual altimeter, AND eyeballs. Anyone that says one automatically precludes another really is a douche

Sooooo:
Anyone that says one automatically prevents another is a jet of water applied to bathe an organ?

pre•clude
1. To make impossible, as by action taken in advance; prevent. See Synonyms at prevent.
2. To exclude or prevent (someone) from a given condition or activity: Modesty precludes me from accepting the honor.

douche
1. a jet or current of water, sometimes with a dissolved medicating or cleansing agent, applied to a body part, organ, or cavity for medicinal or hygienic purposes.
2. the application of such a jet.
3. an instrument, as a syringe, for administering it.
4. a bath administered by such a jet.
–verb (used with object)

funny -

"Douche" was Dave's, but the 700 wonder is less valuable as the douche has a purpose and is infested with less vermin

"Preclude" - I stand by that, he noted he couldn't use his eyes if he had an altimeter. Brilliant.

The tragedy is a 700 jump wonder stroking his own ego and purposely misleading a newbie gullible enough to take it seriously.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DougH 270]

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he continued to tell me that i was absolutely wrong and that i could put other skydivers lives in jeopardy by doing that?

I would argue that other skydivers are putting YOUR life in jeopardy by failing to give enough horizontal separation if a higher pull is a safety issue at a single plane single pass operation. Vertical seperation is a load of garbage!!!

I do agree that it isn't a good idea to pull unannounced in this scenario, give some healthy wave offs just in case.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,412]

>He also said he doesnt wear a visual altimeter because it will make him look at it . . .

I almost always carry a visual altimeter. I generally look at it a lot in the plane (to know when to get ready.) Once I exit I don't look at it again until I open, because I'm often curious as to what altitude I open at. After that I don't look at it until the next jump. Breakoff, opening, and landing is all performed with my eyes.

If your friend is really that "tempted" to look at his altimeter, tell him to practice not using it. Many students are trained to look at their altimeter a LOT and it's a hard habit to break - but you can break it if you work at it. Like anything else it takes practice.

>he said at 5500 his audible beeps and at 3500 it beeps and after that
>its up to him when to pull.

Yeah - but consider what sort of noise an audible makes when it fails.

>so my question is , in a hypothetical, i have become un-aware of my
>altitude. Am i suppose to trust my perception and i guess pull when i get
>scared, or am i suppose to do what i was taught in AFF and pull as soon as
>i become un-aware (assuming i have lost my alti in mid air or something)

That's a judgement call. During AFF I'd always pull. After that I'd decide based on experience. Keep in mind that SL students are trained to pull based on time, and this works for AFF as well. If you exit at 12500 you have at LEAST 35 seconds before you get into dangerous altitudes, so pulling the instant you're out the door isn't necessary. However, if you are doubting how high you are, generally it's a good idea to pull.

Keep in mind, however, that this is not a great thing to do, it's merely the better of two evils. Pulling high can cause problems for the next load at busy DZ's. It is _much_ better than pulling too low, though, so it's a tradeoff.

To better prepare for an issue like this I'd recommending training your eyes. Get a dytter set for 500 feet below your pull altitude, then try judging pull altitude by sight alone. One good way to start this is to look at your altimeter at 6000 feet, count to ten, try to eyeball it, and pull at 4000 feet. Your dytter serves as a backup in case you miss it.

Also keep in mind that if your goal is to pull by 4000 feet you have some slack. +/-500 feet in either direction is generally OK, so pulling _slightly_ low is not too much of a big deal. (Naturally if you're pulling at 2000 feet it's a much bigger deal.)

[riggerrob 558]

What an arrogant ....

He is only half-right.
He is correct in keeping his eyes "outside the cockpit" while in the landing pattern, watching other traffic, wind socks, gates, etc.

All those gadgets: visual altimeters, beepers, flashing lights, AADs, etc. are only training wheels/training aids on the way to learning how to measure altitude by eyeball. In the long run, you should be able to judge altitude with your eyes and only glance at your altimeter to confirm.

A good way to practice this is to look out the airplane window and say to yourself "This looks like 2,000 feet." Then confirm by glancing at your altimeter.

However, your local swoop god is wrong is discouraging junior jumpers from wearing altimeters.