Responding to "Swooping is not a crime"

[marks 0]

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35 HP landings out of 66 in the fatalities database.

53% of the total landing fatalities.

15% of the total fatalities.

you can turn numbers many ways, just depends on who is looking at them... I will not waste my time.

swooping is here to stay, come up with ideas that it can be done safely.

billvon did, and so has brian. they put into descriptive detail what we all have been saying all along.

if the DZ doesn't have the option of separate landing area, then they have the option of separate time. If they don't choose to do the "separate time"
because it is not "economically viable" then they can ban whatever whenever, and we as swoopers have to deal with that.

it's all good.

[mnealtx 0]

Yup, agreed... just giving Zenister some info, is all.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skinnyshrek 0]

We are lucky in how the farm is set up. if your dz doesn't allow hnpops or swooping find another dz.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[marks 0]

brians suggestion is exactly how the farm is set up..

with a visual "great wall" and all!

[skinnyshrek 0]

has brian been to the farm? I think the way the farm is set up is perfect. Also, people there seem to respect the rules. Its when you are above the rules is whne shit happens just like dublin

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[marks 0]

I agree, and lee, as you know, for the most part, we have gotten rid of those peeps.

we are now in the process of keeping the younger ones in check.

[skypuppy 1]

in no way... since "landings" does not equal "swooping"

maybe a more in depth survey of incidents (as limited as that is) is in order, because youve clearly not read them very well if you equate all 'landing' incidents as 'swooping'

ofc that is a big part of the witch hunt attitude so clearly displayed on dizzy.com..
__________________________________________________

Don't forget that a certain percentage of swooping fatalities will be listed under 'collisions' which made up 16% of fatalities, more than no-pulls and reserve problems, and almost as much as malfunctions.

Some of those collisions are on opening or just flying the pattern, but as we said, several are swooping or swoop-related.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skinnyshrek 0]

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I agree, and lee, as you know, for the most part, we have gotten rid of those peeps.

we are now in the process of keeping the younger ones in check.

Hopefully those idiots won't be back. But some dz's will not. They keep them because they spend money. I am glad hans is taking the right steps. You,ian,travis and the other swoopers at the farm are keeping it safe. Swooping is fun in the right enviroment.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[mnealtx 0]

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in no way... since "landings" does not equal "swooping"

maybe a more in depth survey of incidents (as limited as that is) is in order, because youve clearly not read them very well if you equate all 'landing' incidents as 'swooping'

ofc that is a big part of the witch hunt attitude so clearly displayed on dizzy.com..
__________________________________________________

Don't forget that a certain percentage of swooping fatalities will be listed under 'collisions' which made up 16% of fatalities, more than no-pulls and reserve problems, and almost as much as malfunctions.

Some of those collisions are on opening or just flying the pattern, but as we said, several are swooping or swoop-related.

I think you were responding to Zenister's post, not mine...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billeisele 122]

Mark - glad to see you add some sanity, here's my $0.02 worth

i'm not a swooper but like to watch swoopers, what I am is an old fart that is tired of seeing people hurt themselves and hurt others, I'm all about safety, whatever it takes

Agree - swooping is not a crime but wreckless canopy piloting might be if it hurts someone else, a judge or jury will have to decide if it is a "crime" and undoubtedly we will give them that chance

wreckless canopy piloting could be a swooper, an accuracy nut hovering in the pattern, joe blow not following the landing pattern, a confused student, etc.

Brian stated that, "...large sector of the skydiving population is in danger of extinction...", i disagree, seems a little sensational, we have a progressive DZ and probably less than 10% are "swoopers", but this statement is not worth bickering over

why are we bickering over semantics, statistics, etc.?

USPA is NOT the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

swooping is here to stay - I agree and hope that is true

education is one solution but not the total solution, some refuse to be educated, and some simply have not collected enough skills to be safe under all conditions, sometimes that is the low timer or it may be the high timer - sitting where you are raise your hand if you know exactly how to do and have recently practiced a flat turn, and would comfortably do one to avoid a collision, something to think about

to simply ban something that can be managed otherwise seems silly - at least to me, but as others have said the DZ belongs to the owner and they get to make the rules, we might be our own worst enemy but arguing so much about "rights", and walking too far, and "no fair" that the DZO finally says - ENOUGH and takes the easy way out with a NO

my DZ has chosen to create a separate landing area, it is walkable but further away but we pick em up in a vehicle

if DZs refuse to deal with the situation then maybe(?) a BSR is a good idea, BSRs tend to add credibility and force DZOs to think about them, violating a BSR is a bad thing if you end up in court, in the absence of law the legal system will usually fall back to commonly accepted practice - the BSRs

I think that ultimately we all want the same thing, a relatively safe environment in which to enjoy our sport, but simply disagree on how to get there

let's take the emotion out of this issue and rationally determine a viable path to a workable solution

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[marks 0]

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Mark - glad to see you add some sanity, here's my $0.02 worth

thank you !!!

that is the first time anyone ever called me sane.!!!

hahahaha!

I owe beer, It has been a while.

[billeisele 122]

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Mark - glad to see you add some sanity, here's my $0.02 worth

thank you !!!

that is the first time anyone ever called me sane.!!!

hahahaha!

I owe beer, It has been a while.

now see this is how arguements get started by misintrepreting carefully crafted language

demonstrating a single moment of sanity does not make one sane just as changing a spark plug does not make one a master mechanic

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[damion75 0]

Someone correctly pointed out that no BSRs, or anything else, will make any difference without enforcement of the rules.

This means you. Either talking directly to the offender or talking to the S&TA / CCI etc, when you see someone doing something stupid and/or dangerous.

There are a lot of people getting very hot under the collar here, so I will be curious to find something out. After 7 pages of self-righteousness, how many people are actually going to stand up and be counted at their own DZ this weekend when they see something dangerous going on? Time to put your money where your mouth is people. Less typing, more action.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[klingeme 0]

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Swooping into traffic breaks the "avoid other jumpers in the pattern" and "low jumper has right of way" rules that we have all been told again and again and again since our first jump courses.

If these rules are not being followed, how is adding more rules that people will not follow going to solve the problem? Education and more active S&TAs is the answer.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[klingeme 0]

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You come back and say that he's wrong, that landing != swooping (which I agree) and that he should search the database.

If landing=Swooping, "What is "I noticed the powerlline (or tree, or person, or other object) at the last second and burried a toggle to avoid it and died because of that (under say a 170 loaded at 1:1 with a straight in approach with 50 jumps or so)?" this would be a landing fatality and these types of accidents happen every year.

[klingeme 0]

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After 7 pages of self-righteousness, how many people are actually going to stand up and be counted at their own DZ this weekend when they see something dangerous going on? Time to put your money where your mouth is people. Less typing, more action.

I've never been shy to meet someone on their way back from the landing area for a little discussion about what I saw.


Mark Klingelhoefer

[billvon 2,400]

>If these rules are not being followed . . .

In many places they are not rules.

>how is adding more rules that people will not follow going to solve the
>problem? Education and more active S&TAs is the answer.

Perris has about 25 S+TA's. Hasn't solved the problem, because they all have differing opinions on what's OK. Having ONE simple rule would help them make consistent calls.

Education? We have canopy courses available now. There's an entire "here's how to do a canopy control course" in the SIM. How does any of that help when the next Danny Page says "hey, don't worry about it - I'm being careful." ?

What WILL help solve this problem is if the next Danny Page knows for sure that he will be grounded if he continues his irresponsible behavior - and he can't just go to another DZ that has never heard of the rule.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Education? We have canopy courses available now. There's an entire "here's how to do a canopy control course" in the SIM. How does any of that help

I'm guessing a lot of skydivers learn better hands on than reading a manual.

We do have excellent canopy courses available. They are not required, though, and many people that should take advantage of them don't.

Education is most definitely still needed, in addition to...

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Thanatos340 1]

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Education is most definitely still needed, in addition to...

I keep hearing this nebulous "Education" over and over. You can Train and Educate some people till you are blue in the face. It will not change a thing. Some people will NOT learn.

No Amount of Training or Education in the world will give someone common sense. The ONLY thing that will work for these people is to make sure they understand that if They Swoop through Slower Traffic, they will be Grounded.

You cant “Educate” a Skygod. They already know everything.

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm guessing a lot of skydivers learn better hands on than reading a manual.

Right. That's why that section of the manual doesn't say "here's how to swoop" it says "here's how to set up a course to teach other people to fly HP canopies." The course takes five jumps, has reading assignments etc. It's all there, ready to go. Run one at your DZ.

[skybytch 259]

Hi. My name is bytch and I'm a broken record.

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No Amount of Training or Education in the world will give someone common sense. The ONLY thing that will work for these people is to make sure they understand that if They Swoop through Slower Traffic, they will be Grounded.

You cant “Educate” a Skygod. They already know everything.

Which is why we still see people doing S-turns on final, chasing the windsock in light and variable wind conditions and spiraling down to final in the main landing area, even though each of those activities is completely unsafe in traffic and completely unneccessary for accuracy.

It comes down to selfishness. Doesn't matter what canopy or pattern people fly - if we all fly unselfishly we can all walk back to the packing area.

Your point, and the points of everyone currently demonizing swoopers, would be much better taken if you would address the issue of reducing canopy collisions instead of blaming everything on a particular group. Required education - for everybody, not just swoopers, not just pre-A license holders - will reduce canopy related incidents.

[Thanatos340 1]

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Your point, and the points of everyone currently demonizing swoopers,

Not demonizing anyone. Just cant understand how so many people are saying that it is OK to Swoop throgh Traffic.
(This statement is just as Valid as those that are claiming people are trying to Ban Swooping)

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Which is why we still see people doing S-turns on final, chasing the windsock in light and variable wind conditions and spiraling down to final in the main landing area

All these are Bad things and must be addressed and addressed in the same manor. If someone does these things, They should be grounded.

We have rules that tell us NOT to do these things. It says so right in the SIM. No where in the SIM do I see where it says don’t Do HP Landings through Slower traffic.

Right now at many DZ`s it is up to the individual Swooper if they think it is clear enough in the main landing area for them to do a HP Landing. What I am saying is that I do not trust their judgment to make that call. We need standard and simple guidelines for when it is and is not OK to Swoop the main landing area.

Read the responses here, Many of them dont care if others are in the air, They are going to swoop no matter what. They feel it is just as much their right to swoop as it is our right to land safely. If we are in their way, it is because we did something wrong. BULLSHIT!!

If you want to Swoop, Go for it. Just do it in a safe area away from slower canopies.

Other issues like S Turns and Spiraling down over the LZ need to be addressed too but we do already have rules that say DONT Do That. Now we asking for a Rule that says Dont swoop through Traffic.

Enforcing these rules is a different matter.

Maybe what we really need is to just place a few Baseball Bats in the landing area. If someone does S Turns, Spirals Down over the LZ and/or Swoops through Traffic, Just pick up the nearest Bat and make sure they dont do it again for a while. If the S&TA`s will not enforce the rules, Someone has to.

Oh.. Wait.. There isnt even a rule that says Dont Swoop through Traffic.. Nevermind.

[chrismgtis 0]

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Education is most definitely still needed, in addition to...

I keep hearing this nebulous "Education" over and over. You can Train and Educate some people till you are blue in the face. It will not change a thing. Some people will NOT learn.

Yet, not educating yourself is just plain stupid and there is no excuse. Any amount of education is better than none. We should still be educating ourselves and others, regardless of whether some just don't care what they are taught.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[Thanatos340 1]

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Yet, not educating yourself is just plain stupid and there is no excuse. Any amount of education is better than none. We should still be educating ourselves and others, regardless of whether some just don't care what they are taught.

No disagreement at all from me there. I absolutely agree.

I didn’t say Give up, I just want to make sure people understand that this undefined nebulous "Education" that people keep referring to will have little effect at all on the Skygod that already knows it all. He will continue to do what has been doing, Especially if it isn’t even against the Rules.

It will also have little to no effect on the new (and Old for that matter) jumpers that Spiral down over the LZ and S Turn on final. You cant teach Common Sense, You can Teach the Rules. Then if people choose to ignore the Rules, Someone must take action. (S&TA and or Other Jumpers)

[tsisson 0]

Brian's ideas always make sense, well thought out and execute well on paper and in theory.

The problem with his idea here is, we still as a community can't figure out how to fly a general left and right pattern with respect to an un-crossable windline - which is typically taught in the first jump course. Experienced as we are, people still get turned around - fail to follow the rules of the road - or make mistakes and get into trouble within the normal pattern at any given DZ.

Although it is simple enough on paper, I don't think people will really execute in the real world setting.