Responding to "Swooping is not a crime"

[rhys 0]

I don't want to sound like a scratched record, but i also don't have time to read all the posts here!

we have had numerous discussions in the past about exit separation etc and 'HOW TO ADAPT' to new disciplines.

Swooping is the same.

There have been frequent canopy collisions as well as people stoving themselves into the ground. people have cutaway too low and have had double malfunctions, tandems get thumped in because operators continue to push wind limitations due to $$$$

Do you ban students because they are a liability?

Swooping is selling canopies. Why do performance designs use top level swoopers to promote their canopies when the major market for them is sabre 2's etc.?..... BECAUSE SWOOPING SELLS.

people love swooping, People love danger.

If you are not into risk then don't own an operation that depends on the judgment of the customers. Period.

If people are swooping in a main landing area the problem is the fault of;

A, the operator if they have failed to provide a high performance specific landing area....solution = provide a high performance specific landing area.

B, the person in question if they are not supposed to be swooping there....solution ban the said jumper for a period of time to entice them tho think about what they have just done.

People will always make mistakes, those mistakes can be reduced by education, rules and having appropriate equipment.

Banning swooping is not going to help the problem. If it is banned you will always get the odd few that will break the rule, if you accommodate swooping and have a plan in place then you will gain more respect and in turn will gain more customers.

I agree with Brian that this is all a knee jerk reaction and some of these occasions (fatalities) are the outcome of poor risk management by the operators combined with poor judgment from the said victims.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[2shay 0]

thats the point anyone anywhere has seen irresponsible behavior in all disciplines. That is not a reason to bash.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[2shay 0]

I totally agree

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

I kinda see your point, but I guess I just don't really care for swoop bashers. I don't bash on other disciplines wether I activley participate in those or not. Everything is cool with me so long as everyone is jumping a lot and havin fun.

How many people have you seen DIE in canopy collisions? How many collisions have you survived? That's not having much fun.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

Banning swooping is not going to help the problem. .

STRAWMAN. No-one is suggesting that swooping be banned. The suggestion is separation of high performance landings from standard pattern landings.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

STRAWMAN. No-one is suggesting that swooping be banned. The suggestion is separation of high performance landings from standard pattern landings.

No-one here has suggested a ban.

It has been banned or restricted to 90-degree turns on at least a couple DZs. I can only personally speak for two we visited and neither were recent visits, more like two to three years ago. I don't feel it necessary to point fingers at any particular DZ or its owner b/c--well, I like the owners. And I understand their intentions were well-meaning. And though I don't know either way for the other, I know that the one which had banned it has since reversed their policy and implemented landing restrictions instead.

It doesn't sound to me those upset are upset b/c they have to land someplace differently.

I'm all for a separation of landing patterns, and even jump altitude restrictions where such separation is not plausible.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[JumpRu 14]

Quote

How many people have you seen DIE in canopy collisions? How many collisions have you survived? That's not having much fun.

we got your point, you had canopy collision and got scared... I don't blame you... but honestly fear is bad advisor in serious discussion. For you I would suggest to take couple months off jumping, calm down and choose places where you jump a little more carefully. All DZ are different you know...some are smaller some bigger, some doing good job on managing traffic some don’t. Just don’t act like everyone out there is after you. We are interested as much as you in safe landings.

Apparently from another thread it seems like that guy who hit you was not even swooping, he was one of those who likes to spiral down over landing area.

You know the type? They don’t look down at all! No wonder he collide with you. BSR would not change anything because guys like this are incapable of flying any pattern.

They need education at first place, because they don’t know any better. How many jumps this guy has anyway?

[stratostar 5]

Quote

It has been banned or restricted to 90-degree turns on at least a couple DZs.

And that is their right as DZO's to ban it or not to ban it. If I owned a DZ and wanted to make a blanket rule there is NO hook turns, swooping of people , buildings, airplanes, or grass LZ, that would be my right to do that.

If you as jumper didn't like it it is your right to hit the road and go some place else.

My guess is there wil be more who chose to stay and jump at a safe dz then those who will get pissed off a leave to the free for all dz's.

So Art how many jumpers have you lost now that you have made your new rules???

I bet not many!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[PLFXpert 0]

You're misunderstanding or haven't read my previous posts.

I absolutely agree is it the DZO's decision either way. I think it's a shame if their decision is to ban swooping or place a restriction on turn ratio. I fully support & applaud any DZO who notices there is a problem and regardless if the s-turner or swooper are at fault, makes a decision to adapt to how the sport has progressed and implement change.

The best changes, imo, are education, education, education, landing area restrictions, and perhaps jump altitude restrictions where landing restrictions are not possible.

Your example was exactly what I support! The "new rules" you referred to are not a ban or turn-ratio restriction, which is what I've seen previously.

It sounds like you agree with me, but for some reason I don't think that was your intention.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Thanatos340 1]

Quote

I'm all for a separation of landing patterns, and even jump altitude restrictions where such separation is not plausible.

That is all anyone is asking for.

If a particular DZO has decided to just Ban HP Landings all together, That is his/her right. Their Business will feel the effects of that decision (Positive and/or negative).

I do not hear ANYONE here suggesting banning swooping. A BSR for Landing separation (Time or Space) is what many are asking for. That is it.

What some of the Swoopers don’t seem to get and are not hearing is that because of what has happened, Many of your fellow Jumpers are now afraid of you. We dont have as much faith in your skills and judgment as you do. If you want to Swoop, Fine. Go for it. Just don’t do it in the main landing area when slower traffic is present.

Doesn’t seem like asking all that much to me. Just some common sense (Which we all know is not that common).

[stratostar 5]

I have read your post and you right I don't agree with you. I will support a total ban on swooping as well as a ban on any turn over 90 degrees, if that is what the DZO would like to do to..........Why? because it is their playground and they forked out the money to build it and run it, they can make any rules they want, they have that right to do so.

I also don't agree with you that swooping is bringing mass interest to the sport and new jumpers. In fact I agree with those who speak of students and their family and friends who gringe and say "we're not going to land like that are we?" Seen it many many times with clients, it is more of a turn off then a turn on with 75% or more of first time jumpers!

Back to your regular programing.....

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Why do we have BSRs at all, if rules do not make a difference to people's behavior?

The story I heard was that the orginal BSRs and R was reccomendation then, was to keep the FAA out of parachuting.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[PLFXpert 0]

Well, I certainly don't agree with a ban or restriction on turns more than 90 degrees, but we agree on one point--ultimately either way it is absolutely the DZO's decision.

Quote

I also don't agree with you that swooping is bringing mass interest to the sport and new jumpers. In fact I agree with those who speak of students and their family and friends who gringe and say "we're not going to land like that are we?" Seen it many many times with clients, it is more of a turn off then a turn on with 75% or more of first time jumpers

On this point, it doesn't matter whether you or anyone else agrees with me. The issue at hand is safety, not interest or non-interest in our sport. I stand by my thoughts, but in retrospect feel they are best-suited for a different thread/different topic.

I don't doubt the many tandem students that don't wish to land that way on their tandem. Of course, me--I'd have wanted the total experience if was given the opportunity.

It seems however, the media attention to swooping, sports-programming attention to swooping, etc. has gone unnoticed to some. Shame. B/c for me, finally I am seeing our sport represented in a way other than an injury, death or plane crash. And these programmers keep coming back for more--seems there's a decent & profitable viewership for it. Interesting.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[rhys 0]

Quote

The suggestion is separation of high performance landings from standard pattern landings.

That is just common sense, anyone who argues against that is an idiot!

not allowing more than a 270 degree approach is banning swooping and we all know that has been done.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,400]

>That is not a reason to bash.

That's right. And I'm not.

[gjhdiver 0]

Quote

Swooping is selling canopies. Why do performance designs use top level swoopers to promote their canopies when the major market for them is sabre 2's etc.?..... BECAUSE SWOOPING SELLS.

An incorrect assumption. Swooping is a small niche market. Factories maintain swooping teams for the same reason that motor companies maintain F1 teams. It's for visibility and name recognition. As you correctly state, the main market is in more docile canopies. If the companies had to rely on sales of high performance cross braced canopies to survive, they's all be out of business tomorrow.

Swooping may fun and cool to watch, but it's essentially a dead end as far as high volume sales go, and it's usually at best a break even proposition for drop zones. Therefore, it only takes one or two doofuses to mess it up before a DZO will decide thart it's not worth the risk to continue to allow it.

At Byron, we have now set aside a separate area for swoopers. If you want to do 270 aproaches or greater, you get to land elsewhere. We have the real estate to do that, a lot of drop zones don't.

[2shay 0]

why is it that you assume and argue with so many people

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

why is it that you assume and argue with so many people

Because your post treated unnecessary deaths caused by irresponsible people as if they are of no consequence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

Quote

How many people have you seen DIE in canopy collisions? How many collisions have you survived? That's not having much fun.

we got your point, you had canopy collision and got scared... I don't blame you... but honestly fear is bad advisor in serious discussion. For you I would suggest to take couple months off jumping, calm down and choose places where you jump a little more carefully. ?

Maybe you should check your facts before posting drivel. Just a suggestion.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

Quote

The suggestion is separation of high performance landings from standard pattern landings.

That is just common sense, anyone who argues against that is an idiot!

not allowing more than a 270 degree approach is banning swooping and we all know that has been done.

The only proposal for a BSR that I have seen discussed anywhere said nothing at all about banning anything.

If an individual DZ owner chooses to make rules, that's his business decision and you are free to take your custom elsewhere.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pop 0]

Quote

Quote

We all know swooping is the leading cause of death....

this misstatement discredits your entire post

First of all I said "We all know swooping is the leading cause of death, or close to it." You edited out the "close to it" part.

Second, landings are the leading cause of death according to dz.com, and swooping is very much in line with landing.

Collisions (34) 16%
Landings (66) 31%
No Pulls (16) 8%
Malfunctions (39) 18%
Reserve Problems (15) 7%
Other (29) 14%

Validity of argument stands.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hey Pop

how many of the 31% of landing deaths were swooping and how many just made a bad decision under canopy. We know swooping is not safe and we also know that it takes hundreds if not thousands of jumps before one really starts to get it when it comes to swooping.

So when you say:

"We all know swooping is the leading cause of death, or close to it."

I tend to disagree with you and would rather say"

"We all know people making stupid decisions under canopy is the leading cause of death, or close to it."

Ban skydiving and you will solve the problem of people killing themselves in this sport. But until you do that, unfortunately people will die in this sport and if someone is not willing to accept this risk, then they need to be doing something else in life.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chrismgtis 0]

Quote

Ban skydiving and you will solve the problem of people killing themselves in this sport. But until you do that, unfortunately people will die in this sport and if someone is not willing to accept this risk, then they need to be doing something else in life.

I think your right about that and of course swooping isn't the only cause of landing deaths. Hopefully everyone realizes this. I just wanted to add that I believe there is a lack of desire to develop canopy skills which, if we changed, would put a big dent in the landing fatalities that we see.

As I've said many times in the last month, too many people treat their dive as if the only opportunity or even more so a 'need' to learn is in free fall and this opportunity ends as soon as you are under canopy. Obviously this is wrong.

I've done nothing but high pulls (8-9k) for the last probably 10 or more jumps and I get a lot of people that look at me and say things like "that is unusual". Of course it is, I'm actually trying to learn the important aspects of this sport to save my own ass and yours and if that is unusual then that could indicate that something is wrong here.

Why am I the only one?

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Why am I the only one?

Maybe at your DZ you are. But as a whole you're not alone. It should be common knowledge that if you want your canopy control to improve then you need to dedicate jumps towards it. Freefall is fun, but it is good canopy control decision which allows us to make that next jump.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[klingeme 0]

Quote

too many people treat their dive as if the only opportunity or even more so a 'need' to learn is in free fall and this opportunity ends as soon as you are under canopy. Obviously this is wrong.

This reminds me of my first jump off of student status 8 or so years ago. I vividly remember on jump 9 (I did an 8 jump IAF progression) I was not affraid of the skydive, or the exit, or deploying my canopy, but I was scared to death about the fact that I didn't know if I actually understood the pattern and flare/landing well enough after just 8 jumps to be "able" to do it without that stupid radio on my chest.

To this day (about 1300 jumps later) I love a hop and pop from altuitude or a CReW jump, or CReW video. I love the fact that canopy piloting has become a more mainstream part of the sport.

Mark Klingelhoefer