Responding to "Swooping is not a crime"

[pop 0]

Drop Zones are businesses, and the DZO's have the right to implement any rule they feel necessary to protect their business...even if its banning high speed approaches.

Brian says "It is getting ridiculous, as is the policy banning advanced approaches. It is a knee-jerk reaction to fear, and I think we all know where that slippery slope leads."

I dont think Brian is thinking this issue through from a business owners perspective. Death at a DZ in front of spectators isnt good for business. We all know swooping is the leading cause of death, or close to it. Plus swooping isnt a right...its a privelege when you do it on someones elses property jumping out of someone elses plane. I am not anti swoop here...I think its a great discipline, but if you are not happy with a dz banning it, then go to another one, or start your own, and when death begins to affect your business, maybe you will have a different outlook yourself.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[turtlespeed 212]

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Drop Zoners are businesses, and the DZO have the right to implement any rule they feel necessary to protect their business...even if its banning high speed approaches.

Brian says "It is getting ridiculous, as is the policy banning advanced approaches. It is a knee-jerk reaction to fear, and I think we all know where that slippery slope leads."

I dont think Brian is thinking this issue out from a business owners perspective. Death at a DZ in front of spectators isnt good for business. We all know swooping is the leading cause of death, or close to it. Plus swooping is isnt a right...its a privelege when you do it on someones elses property jumping out of someone elses plane. I am not anti swoop here...I think its a great discipline, but if you are not happy with a dz banning it, then go to another one, or start your own, and when death begins to affect your business, maybe you will have a different outlook yourself.

I think it is the 270's them selves - evil litrtle fuckers.

Just like SUV's.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[headoverheels 291]

I swooped somebody's french fries, while he wasn't looking. Had he made an unexpected turn after I was committed, I would have been toast. I didn't really check first that nobody else was going to enter the "fry lane" at the same time -- I just depended on my speed and experience.

[bhammond 0]

I agree with you ... his analogy of 9/11 and the patriot act is goofy to say the least .... I remember the days when you would get a 30 day grounding for a 180 hook turn and everyone pretty much abided by those rules and we still had fun.... I dont know if it was a coincidence or not but it was about the time free flying came into the sport when people( generally young guys) didnt really care so much for the rules and canopy anarchy came into vogue...

[wildcard451 0]

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Drop Zoners are businesses...blah...blah...blah.... maybe you will have a different outlook yourself.

I think it is the 270's them selves - evil litrtle fuckers.

Just like SUV's.

See my sig line for details.

[headoverheels 291]

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... I dont know if it was a coincidence or not but it was about the time free flying came into the sport when people( generally young guys) didnt really care so much for the rules and canopy anarchy came into vogue...

It has always been around, just with less speed and potential for damage.

[SpecialKaye 0]

I totally agree with Pop & I totally agree with you. Too bad the children today aren't taught respect for others or themselves. I remember when you got popped for not opening a door for your "elders"...it was all about respect.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Drop Zones are businesses, and the DZO's have the right to implement any rule they feel necessary to protect their business...

I absolutely agree.

I disagree, however, with your business standpoint. From my business perspective, if I were a DZO today, not only would I allow high speed approaches, I'd want to host the competitions for such.

From a personal perspective, I agree with Germain's assertion that "if my behavior does not have an effect on anyone else, I should be allowed to continue to do what I am doing.."

But I disagree with his use of "should be" allowed in this scenario, given one's actions at a DZ are on & using the DZO's property. It is absolutely the decision of the DZO--for better or worse and despite what I think about their decision either way.

And for the record: In general, I believe one needs to evolve, adapt or die; figuratively speaking.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[bhammond 0]

you state "I believe one needs to evolve, adapt or die; figuratively speaking "

well what I see is a adapting of rules so people dont die in your words adapt or die ......

[jeiber 0]

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I swooped somebody's french fries, while he wasn't looking. Had he made an unexpected turn after I was committed, I would have been toast. I didn't really check first that nobody else was going to enter the "fry lane" at the same time -- I just depended on my speed and experience.

Yeah, unfortunately I was involved in a similar incident. I was swooping some buffalo chicken strips at Hooters last night, and it turns out my other buddy was trying to swoop them as well. We ended up in the same space at the same time. It resulted in disaster... the chicken strips entangled and went flying out of control; both impacted the ground. We both sustained bruised egos.

The Hooters girl responded with a knee jerk reaction. She suspended all drinking, and banned our flip cup competition....

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[PLFXpert 0]

The sport of skydiving has evolved.

"Die" is used figuratively and refers not to the swooper.

Furthermore, the original poster spoke purely from a business perspective. From a business perspective these "high-speed approachers" WILL go somewhere else. Spectators will follow. Swooping is one of the few skydiving disciplines that spectators can actually watch firsthand. There is more spectator interest in our sport than ever before largely due to swooping & like disciplines. Interested spectators = more tandems. Tandems make profit for the DZ & DZO.

What Germain means by "not a crime" is it is not illegal. So long as it's not, people will find places & means to continue doing it. And so long as they do, what exactly is being prevented overall?

I would much prefer such a discipline be done in an already well-established, respected & regulated DZ myself. But...to each their own.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[yardhippie 0]

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I totally agree with Pop & I totally agree with you. Too bad the children today aren't taught respect for others or themselves. I remember when you got popped for not opening a door for your "elders"...it was all about respect.

yea, well that "door" opens both ways. Oh, and when you see that multi-thousand year vetran spiraling over the LZ, crossing the runway under 500 feet, and flying what cant event be called a pattern, you speak to them about it, and they tell you to screw off cuz youre just a punk with an a 1/4 of the jumps they do and a decade less in the sport. Yea. Thats respect.

I swoop. I follow the rules at any DZ I visit. I'm also known as the local canopy nazi at my DZ, and it dont earn me any respect. But ya know what, Im not doing it for respect, I'm doing it for safety. Im the first one you'll see if you screw up and I saw it. Any ya know what? I ASK the offender for his/her help in making our LZ safer by doing 'X'. Im the first one to go see our S&TA if we get someone whos an issue.

I apploud those who have been in the sport for years and year, yet remain progressive and continue their education, and training. Those people I look up to. But anyone who says "children today aren't taught respect" when one can only assume youre meaning "swoopers", isn't deserving of respect. Blatant disregard for any type individuality, and a blanket statement such as that is sad, and offensive. IMHO, its just a step away from a personal attack.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[peek 20]

Interested spectators = more tandems .

Interested spectators = more student skydivers

There, fixed it for you.

[PLFXpert 0]

I, too, do not understand the coorelation some make b/w swooper & lack of respect for others???

Nor do I understand why being a swooper or supporting the discipline must mean one doesn't care about those who have died as a result of the discipline.

I absolutely care, and don't want to see people die unnecessarily anymore than the next person. I can only speak for myself, but would venture to say most swoopers feel the same way.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

Either way (and both apply), my point is made.

It's also interesting that many canopy instructors are swoopers! Interesting many students & plenty experienced skydivers seek their advice & instruction for their own safety & understanding of canopy control.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[DougH 270]

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From a business perspective these "high-speed approachers" WILL go somewhere else. Spectators will follow. Swooping is one of the few skydiving disciplines that spectators can actually watch firsthand.

I disagree. From talking to customers, and watching their reactions I think most of them are way more impressed with a gentle tandem landing then they are by swoopers.

In fact many get concerned when they see some one pull a real fast swoop... "we won't have to land like that will we!!!"

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[SpecialKaye 0]

Obviously we come from different generations. Diffferent generations in life and different generations in the sport.

You may want to re-read the posts I was referring to before ATTACKING me.

[SpecialKaye 0]

Have you ever been low in the landing pattern and cut off by someone that HAS to hook EVERY time, every landing? Better yet, have you ever been hurt because of someone that has to hook every time?

Swooping is a privilege, not a right, and there should be a level of respect for everyone else at the DZ and in the landing pattern.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Have you ever been low in the landing pattern and cut off by someone that HAS to hook EVERY time, every landing?

Is it your belief that someone represents the majority of swoopers?

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Swooping is a privilege, not a right, and there should be a level of respect for everyone else at the DZ and in the landing pattern.

I absolutely agree.
The funny thing about opposing sides to any issue is often the goal of the sides is one & the same--just different ideas of how to accomplish it.

And nope, have never had the opportunity to be lower than a swooper--they always land before me. (Please see--though this is true--I am teasing.)

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

I don't disbelieve your conversations & observations.

I also don't deny the recent, vastly increasing interest in our sport--again, due largely to swooping & like disciplines. It would seem many more spectators are "impressed" than not.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[GrabGrass 0]

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I dont think Brian is thinking this issue through from a business owners perspective.

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Possibly looking at this issue through the eyes of someone that makes a decent living TEACHING hi performance canopy use? Say it isn't so!


General Motors said the Corvair was safe too, people were just driving it wrong.


Looks a little like another press release to me, but I question everyone's motives

~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

[SpecialKaye 0]

No, I'm not saying that I'm lumping all swoopers into one category. But, I am saying that when you fly a conservative pattern, you're low in the pattern and you almost get taken out by someone that refuses to do anything but hook every time, it truly sucks. Respect is necessary for your fellow jumper in the landing pattern and knowing when to abort the option of a hook turn so that you're not invading someone elses personal space is vital. Over the past few years, it's become an epidemic of new jumpers that insist on making a hook turn, even if they're going through the pattern. Many of those individuals are under 25 yrs. old (and have been in the sport short term) and have the attitude that they have a right to do hook turns, no matter who the cut off.

[Darius11 12]

Skydiving is a privilege not just swooping.

Someone who cuts people off because of his swoop is no different then a dumb ass who tracks up the line of flight. We have stupid people every where doing every thing.

I totally agree with Brain that this is a knee-jerk reaction. I believe that there is a lot more we can do other then ban swooping or 270 turns.
Most DZ I have seen have enough room to put in a swoop lane, you could even require any one who wants to swoop to take a canopy control class if they have not already.

As for the DZ being a business yes they are but I think brain answered that very well.

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Most dropzones are a business of passion, rather than a pragmatic financial pursuit. If we wanted to make a million dollars, we would have done something else with our time. We do this because we love it.

Here is the other thing.
If you love RW you know what it feels like to turn points when you have that awesome jump where every thing goes great. You get down and you have the biggest smile on your face. Same with freeflyers and wingsuits or what ever you’re in too.

Some of us (like my self) the definition of a good jump or bad jump is only made after my swoop. It doesn’t matter I could turn a 100 points but if my swoop sucks (often does) it was a bad jump. Yes I know it is all fun but there is a different sense of satisfaction you get from doing what you love well.
By banning swooping you will be taking that away for the swoopers, and that’s just not skydiver like (IMHO).

I bet most swoopers are willing work something out. I am sure most are open to suggestions to make it safer for all of us I know I am, and so are most of the people I know. So banning not cool changing some things to make it safer cool.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Nightingale 0]

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Furthermore, the original poster spoke purely from a business perspective. From a business perspective these "high-speed approachers" WILL go somewhere else. Spectators will follow. Swooping is one of the few skydiving disciplines that spectators can actually watch firsthand.

Personally, I think there's more interest in our sport because of the accessibility of tandems. The swoopers scared me a little when I went for my tandem.

I completely understand the concern of DZOs... watching people femur or die is not good for business, so they're minimizing the problem that, more than any other, results in serious injury or death.

DZOs aren't in this for charity... if they find that banning 270s is costing them money, they'll probably un-ban them. If, however, the policy results in a decrease in landing-related injuries and an increase in tandems and student skydives, they'll probably keep the policy in place. Money talks, business owners listen.

[Thanatos340 1]

I still havent seen One single person suggest Banning Swooping. Talk about Knee Jerk reactions. Creating a witch hunt that doesnt exist.

I do hear ALOT of people saying we need a fast lane and a slow lane.

Any Swoopers out there really think that busting a 270 or 180 or even a hard 90 through slow traffic is just fine??

No?
Didnt think so.

So what is wrong with saying DONT DO THAT!!?