Premature reserve on high altitude

[ber 0]

Please give me your opinion...

What to do if someone have a premature reserve deploy at 17k, 20k, 30k. Same for everyone or each altitude have one answer?

Thanks everyone

Ber
---------------------------------
"Who Needs Oxygen Anyway?"

[Praetorian 1]

17 to 20 you should be OK, cold but ok... 30K... how long is your bail out O2 gonna last, can you spiral off enough alt in that time? oh and its gonna be damn cold. . . the OK from 20 is assuming you werent already having problems on the plane. . this also assumes some personal experience and calm about jumping

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[billvon 2,400]

Above about 25K, I might stall the canopy hard and descend rapidly to 15K or so. It's unlikely to cause a mal - and if it does, at least you have 15,000 feet to try to cut it away (literally) and get your main out.

Or perhaps not, depending on where I was and what I was jumping. Illinois with a big reserve? Even if I did nothing, it's likely that whatever problems I had at 25K (disorientation, unconsciousness) are going to resolve themselves by the time I get to 10K.

[chuteless 1]

In the filming of a beer commercial we had a rserve on the ejection seat open at 12K to 15K. My brother was in the seat, and after freefalling to 2K, we thought we had lost the reserve and the seat.

A little while later the police came to the airport with our seat and chute, it had been found several miles away in a small tree., asking if we knew anything about an aircraft going down.

Personally, I would just ride it down and hope the 747s in the area missed me.

Bill Cole D-41

We explained it, and no one cared.

[FrogNog 1]

Above some altitudes, the lack of oxygen can do worse than cause unconsciousness - it could cause lasting brain injury, possibly other bodily injury (heart attack?), and of course possibly death.

Some "time of useful consciouness" altitude charts will make suggestions on expected death times (your death may vary ).

First, I would know what my "problem altitudes" were - cold vs. unconsciousness / dizziness without O2 vs. damage vs. death.
Second, I would do whatever I could to get down. I like Bill's suggestion of hanging on the tail of the canopy to deflate it. That would be one badass stall reinflating/NSTIW story.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Would a reserve be able to handle a high speed opening above 25k? I remember seeing some test video of canopy turning to shreds during a high alt drop test.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[mjasantos 0]

Unless you're planning for some kind of record or stunt event, no one should be jumping from 30K without a compatible bailout oxygen system.

Why?

It's related with altitude classifications:

1. Low altitude: below 15,000 feet MSL;

2. Intermediate altitude: from 15,000 feet up to 20,000 feet MSL (a separate oxygen mask should be provided for each skydiver and aircrew member, although a common central oxygen bottle and regulator system may be used).
In this case, masks should be put and begin breathing oxygen at 8,000 feet MSL (important especially if more than one jump per day is to be done). Skydivers should be breathing oxygen until within 30 seconds of exit.

3. High altitude: from 20,000 feet up to 40,000 feet MSL (all skydivers must be equipped with an appropriate on-board oxygen source and compatible bailout oxygen system, preferably with a backup bottle).
When goal altitude is lower than 25,000 feet MSL, all skydivers should begin breathing from their onboard oxygen source at 8,000 feet MSL; if goal altitude is above 25,000 ft, then all skydivers should pre-breathe 100% oxygen for 30 minutes prior to takeoff. In any of these situations, at 2 minutes from exit, skydivers activate their individual bailout bottles, disconnecting from the aircraft oxygen system. In the event of a bailout bottle malfunction and that no backup bottle is carried, the skydiver should remain connected to the aircraft oxygen system.

4. Extreme altitude: above 40,000 feet MSL (all skydivers must be equipped with compatible onboard and bailout oxygen and body pressurization systems appropriate to the goal altitude).
At this altitude range there are no general SOP defined, as they change from situation to situation, but should be developed for each specific mission and equipment used to accomplish it.

Becoming under a prematurely deployed reserve (or main) at high or extreme altitudes, without a bailout oxygen, would be a real problem.

Besides the very low temperatures at those altitudes, the lack of oxygen would cause the loss of consciousness.

At 40k the Time of Useful Consciousness is 15 seconds;
At 35k is 20 seconds;
At 30k is 30 seconds;
At 28k is 1 minute;
At 26k is 2 minutes;
At 24k is 3 minutes;
At 22k is 6 minutes;
At 20k is 10 minutes;
And at 18k is between 15 and 30 minutes.

That's why above 20,000 feet MSL all skydivers must be equipped with an appropriate on-board oxygen source and compatible bailout oxygen system (preferably with a backup bottle).

Besides the lack of oxygen at high altitude, there are other problems.

At higher altitudes, the terminal velocity increases, so does the rate of change in speed from freefall to open canopy.

Due to this, a premature and unexpected parachute deployment might cause serious injuries as result of the greater opening shock that would be experienced in such situation. On the other hand, the equipment used might not be able to sustain that shock without damage.

Even if the skydiver doesn't get injured and the equipment not damaged, would still face an extended period of exposure to the extreme low temperature at those altitudes.

So IMHO, a premature reserve deploy at 17k wouldn't be a big problem; at 20k, the problem would get bigger, but wouldn't still be a limit situation if the skydiver gets able to descend to FL150 within 5-10 minutes from the opening.

However, at 30k, the ideal would be to have a backup bottle as well, depending on the duration of the main bailout O2 bottle. Otherwise (without a bailout O2 system) a skydiver in this situation would face an extreme situation, with more than likely serious consequences.

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[sundevil777 93]

But record attempts go up all the time to the mid 20's without bailout bottles, how?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[VectorBoy 0]

If you may be in danger of hypoxia prolonged spirals may not be the mauever of choice as it may help starve your brain of O2.

But like Billvon said, hook knife in hand, wouldn't it be cool to be able to tell the story about the time you cut your reserve away? As a syptom you could always wait until your nails look blue before you do but I always heard your color vision is the first to go.

[billvon 2,400]

>Would a reserve be able to handle a high speed opening above 25k?

We had a reserve open right out the tailgate at 25K in Thailand. Rig and reserve were OK but the jumper broke some ribs. (Exit speed was also high, around 150kts.)

(sundevil sez)

>But record attempts go up all the time to the mid 20's without bailout bottles, how?

By being reaaaly careful about O2 usage and time on/time off. In Eloy we went as high as 26K without bailout oxygen. We'd stay on O2 until the last ten seconds (some of us later divers would stay on it until after the superfloater exited) and then hope that we got to 15000 feet in the remaining time-of-useful-consciousness. Since we had 2 minutes of consciousness we were usually OK.

[mjasantos 0]

Quote

But record attempts go up all the time to the mid 20's without bailout bottles, how?

billvon has already answered that: it has to be very accurately planned and usually there is no margin for mistakes or contigencies.

In such conditions the risk is even higher and that's why almost everytime there is one or another episode where things didn't go as planned.

When I mentioned records, it wasn't exclusive for big formations records, but for those if your remember Eloy or Thailand, in any of them there were (luckily without further major consequences) some situations where skydivers detected others going under the effects of hypoxia and were not aware of that (as that is usually how it happens... if you don't know and are aware of how your body reacts to the lack of oxygen at altitude, you'll fade out without even realize it... that's why the physiological training and preparation are important, although not usually required).

When I mentioned records, I was also remembering when Patrick de Gaiardon exited a Pilatus way above 25k and without bailout system during the descent. He breathed O2 while climbing to altitude but not during the skydive. He had a long period of preparation including the resistance to cold and to hold his breath. He was using a Cypres on his rig, but even with all this training and preparation, later he reported that at some point of his skydive he faded out (due to hypoxia) and recovered from that sometime later before the opening at a lower altitude.

That's why a record is a record, because it has never been done before.

Other thing I'd like to say is that even there are standard procedures to follow in such situations, that doesn't happen all the time... many times there are rules and we don't go according to the rules, but that's a different aspect. Such situations will bring an higher risk than the one "playing" at those altitudes already has even following all the standard and recommended procedures.

I'd like to mention a final aspect, which is equipment related. There are canopies whose specs allow the opening at high altitudes. In the military, for example, those canopies are used for HAHO jumps (High Altitude High Opening jumps). The deployment can be done by static line (usually when skydivers carry a lot of operational equipment - rucksack, weapon, etc.) or as a normal hop'n pop, where normally the freefall time is around 2-3 secs and doesn't go above 7 secs, to avoid deployments at terminal speed. That's why in such equipments we find specs like this one: "The MT-1X can be safely deployed from 2,000 ft AGL (610m) up to 30,000 ft MSL (9144m) and at indicated airspeeds up to 150 KIAS."

Even when specs mention it, there are situations where the equipment fails (I remember a situation of a friend of mine in Belgium, where an HAHO jump didn't go as planned, as his canopy has split in two, through the middle cell, just after the deployment...).

Some of the main points here are:

- There are rules but they are not followed all the time (usually due to logistical reasons), although we should;

- When doing such attempts, at such altitudes, the training, preparation and equipment should be adequate;

- Use common sense and always be prepared for the unexpected - things don't go all the time as expected;

- There is an higher risk by the exposure at these altitudes; by doing it in conditions and not following all the recommended procedures, you must be willing to take that even higher risk, and also be ready to take any consequences from it, if and when things went the wrong way.

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[funks 1]

I'm curious..why is this question focusing on a premature reserve... versus a premature main?

[Kris 0]

Quote

I'm curious..why is this question focusing on a premature reserve... versus a premature main?

Just a guess, but it's a lot easier to cut away a main and fall to a lower altitude than to cutaway a reserve.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[JumpRu 14]

i've been told that if i have to cut away from my main at high alt (14000ft after hop & pot) to grab one riser (before cuting away), cut away and ride it down (3000) then release it and put reserve. This sounds like a plan (at least i still have a chance to see my main) but i wonder did anyone have a personal experience with this?

[isaiah85 0]

Just by watching what happens when you cut away one riser (the one side still attached is still inflated and starts spinning very fast, this under a PD 210) I don't think it would be possible to hold onto one riser, maybe a toggle.

Isaiah

[Kris 0]

Quote

i've been told that if i have to cut away from my main at high alt (14000ft after hop & pot) to grab one riser (before cuting away), cut away and ride it down (3000) then release it and put reserve. This sounds like a plan (at least i still have a chance to see my main) but i wonder did anyone have a personal experience with this?

My view, as a 400 jump chump, would be that if it were a high-speed mal (spinner, baglock, spinning lineover) on a full-altitude hop & pop that you're probably going to be busy enough trying to get your cutaway procedures done to worry about grabbing a riser.

Couple that with the fact that you now have an induced main-in-tow (if you manage to cutaway and hold onto the riser), and it's also in the wrong hand, because you more than likely used your left hand to grab the riser. Now that the fun has begun, hopefully you grabbed onto the entire riser and not just the front or back, because the main is going to be a spinning ball of garbage and hopefully it doesn't wrap around your hand.

Conversely, if you've got a slower speed mal (stable but non-clearable line-over, blown cell/lines) one could ride it down then chop it at a safe point. That's what I did when I blew out a cell and 2 lines on my Stiletto last year. I rode it from 4-ishK to just below 3 (if I recall correctly) and then chopped it once I was in a clear area.

Personally, as much as I love my canopy, if it's time for it to go, it's time for it to go. I can always buy another one later if it gets lost. Buying another flying messican like me, well, that's the hard part.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[JumpRu 14]

you did the right thing. sure if there is any chance to ride canopy with partial mal down and then chop it then this is a way to go, but i'm more concern about bad spiner...

[mjosparky 3]

A couple of things that have not been mentioned. The "Time of Useful consciousness" tables were designed with the body at rest. As the work load goes up the time goes down. Even a moderate work load, moving around in the plane, can cut the time in half. This is even more pronounced the higher you go.

Going to altitudes above 18,000 MSL is a lot like Scuba diving. At 20,000 MSL atmospheric pressure is only 6.76 PSI. At this altitude and pressure nitrogen can be released into the body by the blood. (bends) This to gets worse with work load and higher altitudes.

Going above 18,000 MSL should be preceded with a period of "pre-breathing" 100 percent O2 from a closed system, sealed mask. The amount of time depends on target altitude. This is to purge the nitrogen form the system.

Jumping from above 18,000 MSL is not just another skydive and can be extremely dangerous.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

>The "Time of Useful consciousness" tables were designed with
>the body at rest.

Good point. Front floaters are going to be more at risk for hypoxia than late divers, both because late divers can stay on O2 for longer and because they are not clinging to the side of an airplane.

>Going above 18,000 MSL should be preceded with a period of
>"pre-breathing" 100 percent O2 from a closed system, sealed mask.

I've heard of this too, but:

1. I've never seen a problem with it on dives as high as 26,000, and

2. the normal cannulas/tubes we use don't lend themselves to 100% O2 anyway, so we're not even getting the benefits of prebreathing when we start O2 at 10-12,000 feet.

[mjasantos 0]

That's very true. If someone is tired, didn't sleep enough, had more than the average coffees, etc., will have a TUC smaller than the one listed in the tables.

I found an interesting link regarding the TUC:

http://www.berufspilot.ch/CBT.htm

To select the altitude, place the mouse over the aircraft and drag it (it works like a cursor). It's a cool one!

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[Martini 0]

Quote

i've been told that if i have to cut away from my main at high alt (14000ft after hop & pot) to grab one riser (before cuting away), cut away and ride it down (3000) then release it and put reserve. This sounds like a plan (at least i still have a chance to see my main) but i wonder did anyone have a personal experience with this?

No personal experience but had a major line twist opening at 12.5k on a cross country jump this summer, didn't spin up so not a chopper. Got me thinking about "what if" though. Obviously saving your ass is priority but since riding a spinner down to 2k isn't an option (and it was really cloudy) kissing an $1800 canopy goodbye would have been the result. Also a terminal reserve opening (ouch) and land out who knows where or lose the reserve bag/pc instead. Hold on to a riser then chop? Someone is pulling your leg or doesn't have a clue.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[ber 0]

Hey guys...

Its obvious that with a permature reserve at 10.000 or so we land it and no questions, its almost obvious that a permature main at 20.000 we cutaway and open the reserve whenever wanted.
The question is very simple and direct.... a permature RESERVE at 20.000 or 25.000.

And the point is exactly the time with no O2 we gonna spend on.
I dont think cutting the reserve with knife will do, trying to spin to descend is a possible answer but the energy is also important if we dont have O2.
Cause Im kinda new in skydiving I think maybe there is any other chance Im forgetting.

Thanks to all

Ber
---------------------------------
"Who Needs Oxygen Anyway?"

[bch7773 0]

Quote

The question is very simple and direct.... a permature RESERVE at 20.000 or 25.000.

And the point is exactly the time with no O2 we gonna spend on.
I dont think cutting the reserve with knife will do,

cutting the reserve with a hookknife wouldn't take long at all, just a swipe through each riser. this is one of those instances that a hook knife would really really come in handy.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

cutting the reserve with a hookknife wouldn't take long at all, just a swipe through each riser. this is one of those instances that a hook knife would really really come in handy.

Have you ever tried it. After you cut the first of the 4 risers the world as you know it will come to an end. Plus the O2 you would burn would put you in a worse position.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

The question is very simple and direct.... a permature RESERVE at 20.000 or 25.000.

And the point is exactly the time with no O2 we gonna spend on.

Now guys jumping out at 30k are carrying a demand valve O2 supply, right? And they've been breathing it since before they left the plane? Doesn't that entail a decent supply of gas on reserve that can be used for such situations? At air that thin, vertical descent rate should be at least a few thousand per minute. It's not that far down to 15.

I suffered a bit of hypoxia going to 18 on a C206 yesterday. The difference between sitting still and doing the simplest muscle movements was remarkable.