Group Member Program Pros/Cons

[DanG 1]

The inspection program may or may not hit a crappy DZ with a reduction in experienced jumpers, but it would damn sure hurt their tandem business. Substandard DZO's would have to shape up to compete for whuffos and the experienced jumper benefits as a result.

Whether or not this is in USPA's and the members' best interest is another question, but I don't buy the logic that a poor rating will have no repercussions on a DZO.

- Dan G

[popsjumper 2]

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..A friend of mine just told me that the ASC bubbas were looking at opening a new Otter equipped DZ in an area that has a number of jumpers but no turbine DZ. I pointed out that these were the same shysters that run Skyride and all he said was "Yeah, but it's an Otter!!!!"

Which points out the problem with this whole idea of changing anything. Skydivers as a group are an apathetic bunch. Who cares about anything except self-serving bullshit.
"Yeah! It's an Otter!" Nevermind ANYTHING else. The fucking plane could be a death trap and they would still get on it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DougH 270]

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Similar auditing and/or certifications are done in many industries. Look at how much companies will spend on ISO certification.

Apples to oranges in my opinion. Companies have a huge number of customers the distribute to cost across, they have business to business customers who actually take stock in such a certification, and there are tangible gains to be had.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Thanatos340 1]

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they have business to business customers who actually take stock in such a certification, and there are tangible gains to be had.

The same argument could be made for DZ`s. Their Customers (tandems and Students especially) would most likely take notice of which DZ`s were USPA Certified and which were not. At least with this program they would have a chance to make an informed decision.

Again, I am not suggesting that DZ`s pay for this. I am suggesting that the General Membership bear the Lions share of the cost for this program. An Increase of $10 a Year in Membership could possibly do that.

[stratostar 5]

DING DING DING DING DING! Weeeeeeeeee have a winner here folks!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DougH 270]

Maybe but I doubt it. How many tandem students do research?

They plunk down credit card with little to no research at all. I think the fact that they will end up calling skyride, when they have a dropzone in the next town over proves this. They don't compare their choices, they end up going the first place that picks up the phone and takes a reservation.

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DING DING DING DING DING! Weeeeeeeeee have a winner here folks!

A winner or a weiner? Oh yeah, we are the weiners, I forgot.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[davelepka 4]

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Their Customers (tandems and Students especially) would most likely take notice of which DZ`s were USPA Certified and which were not. At least with this program they would have a chance to make an informed decision.

It would be easy to distribute the info to experienced jumpers. Parachutist magazine might finally have a prupose. All the space they use to 'advertise' for the GM DZs could easily be converted to space used for posting reports, or scores, or whatever.

As for the tandems and studetns. maybe the USPA could learn a few lessons from the dicks at Skyride, and learn to properly position a web page to intercept some real traffic. We could create a separate site for the reports, and explaining the program and how it benefits the potential first time jumper.

This is a good idea, given that the USPA wants to be member driven organization. If they want to remain an industry driven organization, then the inspection program will never fly.

[Thanatos340 1]

If the "Certified USPA DZ" seal were properly placed.. It would only appear on REAL Dropzones. Virtual (Read Non-Existant) Dropzones could not possibly have this seal. Finally a way that people might actually have a chance to tell if they are looking at a DZ site or a Booking agency site designed to look like an actual DZ. A Look for the seal campaign by the USPA could have lots of benefits.

[skydived19006 4]

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***

As for the tandems and studetns. maybe the USPA could learn a few lessons from the dicks at Skyride, and learn to properly position a web page to intercept some real traffic. We could create a separate site for the reports, and explaining the program and how it benefits the potential first time jumper.

I asked that USPA do a little very simple web site optimization, even something as simple as changing the title meta to something other than "USPA", and especially on the DZ listing pages. I was told "we're working on it", and that was a two or three years ago! Jan Meyer also was pushing on the same issue, and again for years. Didn't matter to Glenn, or Chris Needles, so was never done.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skydived19006 4]

Derek,

Have you ever asked to look at the aircraft log books at any of the DZs you've jumped?

I've ran a DZ for 7 years, and have yet to have a skydiver ask to see the my log books. I even have half a dozen A&P skydivers! That says to me that they either don't care, or that they really do trust that I'm doing what I should with my aircraft. My guess is that it's the latter.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Derek,

Have you ever asked to look at the aircraft log books at any of the DZs you've jumped?

I've ran a DZ for 7 years, and have yet to have a skydiver ask to see the my log books. I even have half a dozen A&P skydivers! That says to me that they either don't care, or that they really do trust that I'm doing what I should with my aircraft. My guess is that it's the latter.

Or option 3, everyone knows that only troublemakers ask to see aircraft logs, pilot certifications, etc. Plus, how many jumpers would know what they are looking at? How often i maintenance done by un-qualified personnel with no paper trail?

Skyride demonstartes that tandems will get on the internet and look for a DZ. If there was an inspection program, and it was done correctly, a lot of those web-searching tandems would find USPA's inspection report page and could then make an informed choice about which DZ they should go to.

I am envisioning not a pass-fail, but a check list. Anyone could see if the inspector check the box for, yep, they have or do do this, they don't, the DZ refused to show it, it N/A. I think it should be made easy for a DZ to improve their report. For example, if it was raining the day the inspector came out and the pilot wasn't there and the DZO didn't have a copy of the pilot's license, he could just fax it in later and get thee report changed to indicate that the pilot has a commercial ticket.

I know I have flown on jump ships that were not being properly maintained. I know jumpers are apathetic,butt I also think that if jumpers could see in black and white that 'their' DZ wasn't doing the things they should be doing, things would change.

The GM is taken by the un-educated as a stamp of approval from USPA as it is right now. For example, the USAFA cadets cannot jump at non-USPA GM DZ's. Why? The Air Force thinks that being a GM DZ means something. We all know it means absolutely nothing beyond the DZO cut a check to USPA. Replacing the GM program with an Inspection Program would actually mean something. Would it be perfect? Nope. It would be much better than what is out there now, the GM program.

Derek

[jumper03 0]

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Yes.

OK! Notice how you are the only person standing in the room?

Just because there are some of us on here that do not post in this thread to save our sanity, it does not mean that Hook stands alone on this.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[skydived19006 4]

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Skyride demonstartes that tandems will get on the internet and look for a DZ.

Derek

Skyride demonstrates that a bunch of tandem students go on the internet, end up calling a phone number, and hand over their credit card information. You can not tell me that any Skyride "customer" has ever done anything near research!

USPA has refused to do extremely simple search engine optimization! As long as uspa.org does not place on the first page of search results, it does not matter in the least what they post on their web site. Prospective students will first have to read it, before they can read it.

USPA had a "warning" regarding Skyride. What percentage of Skyride business was deterred by that. My guess is something well less than 1%.

As long as it's not on Glen Bang's agenda, it's not going to come to pass. Here's an idea, why don't we figure out how to depose Glen Bangs, and his supporters on the BOD.

Let's affect change!!!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[chutejump 0]

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Skyride demonstartes that tandems will get on the internet and look for a DZ. If there was an inspection program, and it was done correctly, a lot of those web-searching tandems would find USPA's inspection report page and could then make an informed choice about which DZ they should go to.

You as a member understand what "you believe" uspa to stand for! to the average joe looking for a tandem it just another alphabet organization that they must research for find any credibility?

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I am envisioning not a pass-fail, but a check list. Anyone could see if the inspector check the box for, yep, they have or do do this, they don't, the DZ refused to show it, it N/A. I think it should be made easy for a DZ to improve their report. For example, if it was raining the day the inspector came out and the pilot wasn't there and the DZO didn't have a copy of the pilot's license, he could just fax it in later and get thee report changed to indicate that the pilot has a commercial ticket.

Who will pay for the law suits that will follow against uspa when a DZ gets a less than stellar rating? This is the same bull shit that got uspa sued in the first place! Listen "You cannot state, print, or offer opinions that would control or curtail the ability for a business to pursue the free enterprise system" It is a federal free trade law and you will lose your ass if you cross that line, or in the very least go broke attempting to defend your actions.

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I know I have flown on jump ships that were not being properly maintained. I know jumpers are apathetic,butt I also think that if jumpers could see in black and white that 'their' DZ wasn't doing the things they should be doing, things would change.

And you still believe in Santa Clause and the easter Bunny?

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The GM is taken by the un-educated as a stamp of approval from USPA as it is right now. For example, the USAFA cadets cannot jump at non-USPA GM DZ's. Why? The Air Force thinks that being a GM DZ means something. We all know it means absolutely nothing beyond the DZO cut a check to USPA.

Thank You! you supported my point of view! and it would mean exactly the same thing with the inspection, only it would take more time cost more money, and open the organization up to liability for their actions.

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Replacing the GM program with an Inspection Program would actually mean something. Would it be perfect? Nope. It would be much better than what is out there now, the GM program.

Why! are you so hell bent to shelter and save the people the activity of educating themselves? Sounds like 90% of the rest of the everday bull shit that is shoved down our throats! Drive your car! Wear a seat belt! Ride your bike! Wear a helmet! Use your skate board! Wear your pads, Make a jump! You gotta have an AAD! Freedom is the ability to look at things and make a decision that suits your needs, yes! it comes with consequences, as it should! You can kill yourself in any way or fashion that you wish! I don't care! just don't leave me to pay the bills. I don't care how much you attempt to spend to make decisions for people! they are going to go out and fuck it up on their own even with your assistance, if we start to weed our own yards we wouldn't have time to comment about the neighbors lawn. Let Darwin do his job! He doesn't need your help!


Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You as a member

I am not a member.

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Who will pay for the law suits that will follow against uspa when a DZ gets a less than stellar rating?

The DZO will sign a waiver before the inspection agreeing not to sue. With that and a very easy defense, a DZO would have a very hard time winning anything. "I asked to see the aircraft logbooks. The DZO gave them to me. The last annual in the logbook was 4 years ago. I indicated this on the inspection report." What can the DZO say to the judge to convince them that USPA screwed him? He allowed the inspection. He signed a waiver. The inspection was 100% true.

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And you still believe in Santa Clause and the easter Bunny?

Nope. What's the matter, you sound like you have something to hide, don't want your DZ inspected? Afraid of what would be found out?

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Thank You! you supported my point of view! and it would mean exactly the same thing with the inspection, only it would take more time cost more money, and open the organization up to liability for their actions.

Except the report would mean something. The report could be viewed by jumpers. Not just a hollow GM program that doesn't mean anything. There is a huge difference between the GM program and an Inspection program.

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Why! are you so hell bent to shelter and save the people the activity of educating themselves?

That is exactly what I am suggesting, people educate themselves. The difference is you want to keep things the way they are with no information that can be used to educate themselves everything is left up to the DZO and they can keep everything hidden.

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Freedom is the ability to look at things and make a decision that suits your needs,

Exactly, look at things and make an informed choice. If there was a data base of inspection reports, then jumpers could look at them and make an informed choice about where they spend their money. Currently they have no way to know what to look for and if the DZO is doing the things they should be doing. DZO's like it this way.

Derek

[ChangoLanzao 0]

I just have to say, after reading all of these USPA/Ethics/Impeachment/Conspiracy/Skyride threads that this USPA inspection program is just about the silliest damned suggestion I've heard in a very long time.

Nothwithstanding all of the reasons that chutejump has already given (repeatedly), I think that a USPA certification program might really cause some DZO's to actually JOIN the "National Skydiving Association" (unless, they actually believe that whuffos would really be able to tell the difference between NSA and USPA).

Why? Because if the USPA won't certify you, THESE GUYS WILL!

[Hooknswoop 19]

I agree that USPA has to be fixed first.

Derek

[chutejump 0]

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I am not a member.

Of uspa?

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The DZO will sign a waiver before the inspection agreeing not to sue. With that and a very easy defense, a DZO would have a very hard time winning anything. "I asked to see the aircraft logbooks. The DZO gave them to me. The last annual in the logbook was 4 years ago. I indicated this on the inspection report." What can the DZO say to the judge to convince them that USPA screwed him? He allowed the inspection. He signed a waiver. The inspection was 100% true.

No DZO on the face of the planet will sign a waiver that allows someone or an entity the ability to judge their business without recourse.

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Nope. What's the matter, you sound like you have something to hide, don't want your DZ inspected? Afraid of what would be found out?

Cowboy up!!! come on down and do your inspection!! from your posts I would doubt if you could verify a violation if one bit you in the ass!

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Except the report would mean something. The report could be viewed by jumpers. Not just a hollow GM program that doesn't mean anything. There is a huge difference between the GM program and an Inspection program.

In your world? Maybe? doesn't make a ping on the screen of my radar.

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That is exactly what I am suggesting, people educate themselves. The difference is you want to keep things the way they are with no information that can be used to educate themselves everything is left up to the DZO and they can keep everything hidden.

No Information??? to educate yourself with???? BRS's? FAR's? State Laws, Federal Laws? Are you really that lazy??? If I lead you to the waters of knowledge and hold your head uder long enough for you to get informed, your ass will drown in knowledge!!!!

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Exactly, look at things and make an informed choice. If there was a data base of inspection reports, then jumpers could look at them and make an informed choice about where they spend their money. Currently they have no way to know what to look for and if the DZO is doing the things they should be doing. DZO's like it this way.

Again! All of the information is out there!!! Are you that lazy!!! Do your homework!! Become a responsible individual and contribute to the action, and give up the parasite activity. The world is full of takers, why is it the responsibility of all others to drag the inept along. You claim to be a base jumper? so you are saying that you only jump areas and structures that have been used before? If so you are a follower and not a leader! Pussy! Until you brake new ground, your opinion is very limited!

Derek

[DSE 3]

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If the "Certified USPA DZ" seal were properly placed.. It would only appear on REAL Dropzones. Virtual (Read Non-Existant) Dropzones could not possibly have this seal. .

How could one prevent a virtual DZ from placing this "seal" on their website? If you mean that there will only be physical plaques made...photographs aren't that hard, but the bigger point is, the "seal" becomes a marketing tool more than anything, and if the student/tandem passenger/fun jumper is already at the DZ to view the physical seal, what good is it?

[Bolas 5]

Get the seal copyrighted.

Then it's straight copyright infringement versus trying to prove unethical business practices.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[DSE 3]

Copyrighting a seal won't have any impact unless it's also trademarked. Trademark law is one of the most expensive defensibles in the legal universe.

Who cares about a copyright infringement? Discounting the violation of copyright by tandem videos that take place every second of every day, discounting the millions of YouTube videos that violate copyright every day, what about the virtual DZ's that have illegally used copyrighted photos? No one has done anything there, either.

Trademark, copyright....none of it prevents squat.
Great in theory, short on reality.

[Thanatos340 1]

A website that used the "USPA Certified" seal (Image) without USPA consent would be VERY open to litigation.

It is my understanding that Skyride had some BIG problems with NASCAR when they used the NASCAR Logo without NASCAR consent to help them sell race car rides. I believe those logos were VERY quickly removed.

[DSE 3]

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A website that used the "USPA Certified" seal (Image) without USPA consent would be VERY open to litigation.

Sites that use copyrighted photos are VERY open to litigation. Who here has sued for illegal use of copyrighted material, other than myself?
This particular argument is one that has me literally laughing my ass off each time I read it.
"Those mofo's used my photos on their website!!!!!!!, pass me that Van Halen CD, I need it for this tandem video. I'd like to sue them."

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y?

NASCAR has a *lot* of money, a *lot* of power, and a *lot* of branding, complete with a staff of attorneys (same law firm that represents the NBA) who do nothing but seek, protect, and litigate over trademark infringement (it's a trademark, not a copyright). Schnader Harrison Segal & Lewis have more Xerox people that the USPA has had as employees in the entire history of the organization, and it still takes years and $$ to make problems go away.
Again, great in concept, short on reality.

[Bolas 5]

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Discounting the violation of copyright by tandem videos that take place every second of every day, discounting the millions of YouTube videos that violate copyright every day, what about the virtual DZ's that have illegally used copyrighted photos? No one has done anything there, either.

Most of those aren't dealt with because of time and hassle and the fact that although they are not denying what they are doing, they are more or less not hurting the brand or DIRECTLY profiting from it or hurting it.

A copyrighted photo on a website is not saying "We own this picture" it's an assumption they do though.

Sure I can make a video of me dancing to my favorite song and post it on the Internet with little to no fear of consequence, but if I were to take that same song and it's associated music video and try to sell it as I was the owner on a mass scale...

To me it would just be a case of showing that what they did by "hijacking" the image was for profit and hurt that brand.

Lots of organizations have seals. How do they deal with the issue? No need to reinvent the wheel.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Thanatos340 1]

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Again, great in concept, short on reality.

Are you saying Skyride would just steal the USPA Certified logo anyway so there is not point in trying to institute an inspection program?

I also pointed out that if the USPA protect its trademark (As ANY Organization Should) it would help SOME people be able to distinguish between a Real DZ vs a Virtual DZ. This is just one thought and really should have no bearing on whether a DZ inspection program is a good idea or not. I just saw it as one possible extra benefit.

I think a Certification Program for DZ`s could work but it would be expensive and cumbersome to maintain.


Far as IP rights, As owner of a small software company I think you find that I am generally in 100% agreement with you on those issues.