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Danger 0
I do recall one of the inquests recommendations was for all skydiving training in Canada should be provided by the military.
The oganization approved by the Ministry could be the Canadian Armed Forces. This would kill all civilian skydive training in Canada.
The oganization approved by the Ministry could be the Canadian Armed Forces. This would kill all civilian skydive training in Canada.
Yep.
Most nonsensical ideas like that will not make it, but some will. The struggle will be ongoing. Dealing with the gov will probably become a full time position. We will have to pay for that. BPA costs about $300.00/yr. I can see CSPA costing a similar amount. More and more Canadians will end up doing all their jumping outside the country.
Most nonsensical ideas like that will not make it, but some will. The struggle will be ongoing. Dealing with the gov will probably become a full time position. We will have to pay for that. BPA costs about $300.00/yr. I can see CSPA costing a similar amount. More and more Canadians will end up doing all their jumping outside the country.
grimmie 173
The CSPA and it's members should sue a certain former DZO for bringing all of this bad press and legislation to the forefront.
Has Sharon spoken with Ed Scott at USPA? We Yanks should help out as our friendly government agency may try to impose such BS in the future.
Has Sharon spoken with Ed Scott at USPA? We Yanks should help out as our friendly government agency may try to impose such BS in the future.
Sharon has retired, Tim Grech is the new prez. I have no Idea whether he is talking to USPA or not.
As for suing Jim, he was on record as favouring regulation. His attitude was that larger operators like himself would be much better positioned to comply with the bureaucratic shit than small operators. I noticed he never lost his OC, unlike his main competitor.
As for suing Jim, he was on record as favouring regulation. His attitude was that larger operators like himself would be much better positioned to comply with the bureaucratic shit than small operators. I noticed he never lost his OC, unlike his main competitor.
Fast 0
Makes sense. Good luck with it. I hope that people are also going down the road to ensure that CSPA or maybe USPA are approved training methods. Both are proven. Rather than just fight change, which clearly they want to make.
All students in the US have to have altimiters too (in uspa BSRs, though a lot of places seem to ignore that for tandems) (Sec 2-1.K.2.c. of the sim: a visually accessible altimeter [NW])
None the less, yeah government regulation sure does suck.
All students in the US have to have altimiters too (in uspa BSRs, though a lot of places seem to ignore that for tandems) (Sec 2-1.K.2.c. of the sim: a visually accessible altimeter [NW])
None the less, yeah government regulation sure does suck.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Quote
All students in the US have to have altimiters too (in uspa BSRs, though a lot of places seem to ignore that for tandems) (Sec 2-1.K.2.c. of the sim: a visually accessible altimeter [NW])
As the case may be. I do not believe in putting them on IAD students. Some posters from other countries have voiced similar opinions in the incidents forum recently. The point is it is not a universally held opinion; someone saw that it was a rule somewhere (most likely in US) and decided that it should be law in Canada. While you may agree with that opinion that does not change the fact that that person has never made a jump and does not know more about student training than me. The BSR in US was a decision made by informed, experienced skydiving instructors.
mark 102
QuoteAll students in the US have to have altimeters too (in USPA BSRs, though a lot of places seem to ignore that for tandems) (Sec 2-1.K.2.c. of the SIM: a visually accessible altimeter [NW])
In the US, it is possible to be a tandem passenger without being a tandem student. When that is that case, no passenger altimeter is required.
Mark
QuoteQuoteAll students in the US have to have altimeters too (in USPA BSRs, though a lot of places seem to ignore that for tandems) (Sec 2-1.K.2.c. of the SIM: a visually accessible altimeter [NW])
In the US, it is possible to be a tandem passenger without being a tandem student. When that is that case, no passenger altimeter is required.
Mark
Using which manufacturer's gear?
Beatnik 2
QuoteThe CSPA and it's members should sue a certain former DZO for bringing all of this bad press and legislation to the forefront.
IMHO this wasn't only caused by the dzo you are indicating. There was another fatality at a CSPA dropzone in 97 I believe that caused a great deal of trouble. The details of the fatality are quite shocking and to me personally disgusting. The whole jump was handled so poorly it caused a death.
Regarding the regulations:
I personally feel that this could have been resolved a long time ago. However, when transport was talking about regulating the aircraft, there was a dropzone owner and his business partner that were for it. They figured that dropzones would close and they would get more business.
Quite frankly the way the whole thing has been handled is personally disgusting to me and the inner workings of this leave me at a loss for words. The same people that were for it when Transport started talking about it in 1998 are now against it because they can see now that it can adversely affect their business.
What is happening here and tried to happen in the past is that these individuals want CSPA to do the work so they don't have to and nothing can come back on them. They have been trying to use the association to better their business and take away from the members.
I personally believe that these regulations are coming and there is nothing that we can do about it. In my region I was mentioning it to all my members and no one took part in anything. Instead they decided to blow me off and said it doesn't affect them. Now that it is coming into affect people are running in fear.
There is a lot in the background that is not being brought out and a couple individuals want it that way because if it did, their true faces and motives would be shown. Plus it might show the some of the other reasons why this has been coming forward.
Personally I am happy work prevented me from running for a director position again this term because I want to be nowhere around this thing when it becomes law. After I am posted and this is law, that is another matter.
TaylorC 0
i am kinda lazy but i have read the whole thread except the big post. How will this thing effect skydivers who are not students anymore?
We don't know. The most likely effect for experienced jumpers is higher lift tickets and fewer dzs to jump at. If you jump at a single Cessna dz you have to worry about whether it will be around in the long run.
Goody_23 0
Quotei am kinda lazy but i have read the whole thread except the big post. How will this thing effect skydivers who are not students anymore?
Think of BIG picture...
more regulations = increased price for skydiving - saw this with Transport Canada taking over our airplanes
So if costs more $ to become a skydiver even less people will take part in getting their liscences. Skydiving numbers will drop and price will be forced up even more....The sport will slowly diminish
SKYDIVING = HAPPY
riggerrob 558
QuoteI do recall one of the inquests recommendations was for all skydiving training in Canada should be provided by the military.
The organization approved by the Ministry could be the Canadian Armed Forces. This would kill all civilian skydive training in Canada.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Agreed.
Even if civilian schools are still allowed to train - but only with Canadian Army methods - it would be a disaster.
No civilian student is going to submit himself to two weeks worth of push-ups just to be allowed to jump for two days.
I sincerely doubt if the Canadian Army has learned anything about teaching parachuting since the 1960s.
On the other hand, if Canadian Search and Rescue Technicians wrote the syllabus, I would cheerfully follow it.
Master Corporal (retired) Rob Warner, CD, BA, etc.
Canadian Army Basic Paratrooper Wings
West German Army (Bronze) Paratrooper Wings
skypuppy 1
QuoteThe CSPA and it's members should sue a certain former DZO for bringing all of this bad press and legislation to the forefront.
Has Sharon spoken with Ed Scott at USPA? We Yanks should help out as our friendly government agency may try to impose such BS in the future.
________________________________________________
There is way more to the story than one dz. A triple fatality in the early 90's, (tandem and video); another fatality at a dropzone in Ontario which had changed management and dropped cspa membership; a fatality on an illegal demo, also from said dz; a fatality out east that wasn't explained.
There were even two student fatalities last summer, one at the same venue as the one you mention, although the dz has changed ownership. If you think that a fatality represents a flaw in training, then the events could justify the approach TC is taking, even though as far as I can see, in most cases industry standards were followed (exception of illegal demo and some equipment things I'm not sure about, for instance not sure if there was an aad on the east coast fatality or if it was on).
Another rule that often came up at inquests (and from military doctrine I believe) -- riggers inspect and pack ALL mains.
At the cspa agm there was a motion made to make it harder for small groups to change bsr's -- largely to prevent a group of dzo's from imposing mandatory aads for all jumpers -- the motion failed, but what became abundantly clear was that there is no set procedure for how to change bsr's, nothing in the policy and procedures manual, all we got was people's opinions on how the process runs. Is it any wonder that if there is no clear and set procedure for setting or changing the basic safety rules, that TC would seek to impose some?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone
QuoteQuoteI do recall one of the inquests recommendations was for all skydiving training in Canada should be provided by the military.
The organization approved by the Ministry could be the Canadian Armed Forces. This would kill all civilian skydive training in Canada.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Agreed.
Even if civilian schools are still allowed to train - but only with Canadian Army methods - it would be a disaster.
No civilian student is going to submit himself to two weeks worth of push-ups just to be allowed to jump for two days.
I sincerely doubt if the Canadian Army has learned anything about teaching parachuting since the 1960s.
On the other hand, if Canadian Search and Rescue Technicians wrote the syllabus, I would cheerfully follow it.
Master Corporal (retired) Rob Warner, CD, BA, etc.
Canadian Army Basic Paratrooper Wings
West German Army (Bronze) Paratrooper Wings
Sorry I would disagree with that, with the late Adoption of Ram air Parachutes and the lack of free falls skills (most of their jumps are static line) the low number required to stay current. The SAR Techs use a parachute as a tool to get to the scene of where they do their work. They use a lot of CSPA guide lines for their sybilias.
The fact that the Canadian forces need to use out side contractors on a regular basis to conduct their Military free fall program leads me to believe they do not have the extended expertise to in all aspect of student skydiving training.
The military is slow to adopt emerging changes as they rely on proven consistent training methods and equipment.
I would not want them to be the one's to create the training curriculum as for two points I've already mentioned, plus they are not early adopters in the use of new equipments or techniques, and they do not jump enough in a given year compared to many instructors in the civilian side of things. The other is their use of only a few aircraft frames that do not compare to much of the civilian aircraft in use for skydiving.
I’ve spent 9 years in the CF and they train well in some areas of expertise but I would say skydiving is not one of them.
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/050-07_e.asp
This is what the CF regulaations look like in regards to Sport Parachuting They do NOT reconize any other orgnization other then the CSPA Here are some of the highlights.
PARTICIPATION4
c. individual membership with the CSPA is required prior to taking
part in sport parachuting activities with an approved sport
parachuting club.
CONTROL7. All club activities shall conform with the rules and regulations of
the CSPA.
8. Control shall be maintained by:
a. the operation of a club training program based on current CSPA
operation, training and safety publications;
b. compliance with current "Basic Safety Regulations" issued by the
CSPA; and
c. the establishment of any additional regulations the base or
station commander deems necessary.
USE OF CIVILIAN CLUBS OR CENTRES IN CANADA9. In Canada, occasions may arise when an individual member of the CF or
an authorized CF Sport parachuting club wishes to participate with or at a
civilian parachuting club or centre. In this event, the procedure to be
followed by the individual or club and the commanding officer (CO) is as
follows:
a. the individual(s) or club shall complete Part I of Annex A and
submit it to the CO;
b. the CO will complete Part II and forward the form to the CSPA;
c. the CSPA will conduct an investigation, determine if the club or
centre is registered with the CSPA and complete Part III; and
d. the completed form will then be returned to the CO by the CSPA
indicating whether the civilian club or centre is suitable for
use by members of his unit.
10. Under no circumstances should a CO authorize, as part of a CF sport
parachuting club program, use of a civilian sport parachuting club or
centre not approved by the CSPA.
EQUIPMENT11.
12. All repairs and modifications to club equipment and the periodic
repacking of reserve parachutes shall only be carried out by a CSPA
qualified rigger holding the appropriate CSPA rigging license.
13. Subject to paragraph 12, equipment safety regulations are contained in
current operating, training and safety publications of the CSPA.
PUBLICATIONS16. Publications concerning administration matters between the CSPA and
individual member clubs, and the publications referred to in paragraph 8
are supplied free of charge by the CSPA when an individual club joins the
Association. Such publications shall not be procured at public expense.
LIAISON OFFICER TO CSPA17. The Department of National Defence Liaison Officer (DND LO) to the
CSPA is appointed by the Director Land Operation and Training (DLOT),
normally for a term of office of two years. On behalf of DPERA, the DND
OPI for sport parachuting activities organized and conducted in accordance
with 50-7, the DND LO has authority for direct liaison between DPERA
and the CSPA on matters concerning CF sport parachuting. Where necessary,
particularly in matters of safety, the DND LO, with the approval of DPERA
and the applicable command, may liaise directly between the CFSA and the CO
of a unit having a CF sport parachuting club. Matters concerning CF sport
parachuting policy shall be channelled through DPERA in accordance with
normal staffing procedures.
SO this one time at band camp.....
"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."
"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."
IanHarrop 37
To my American friends:
Hope this doesn't come true, you just might find some do gooder in the American government that thinks its a good idea to follow down in the good old US of A.
Hope this doesn't come true, you just might find some do gooder in the American government that thinks its a good idea to follow down in the good old US of A.
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy
MajorDad 0
Quote
On the other hand, if Canadian Search and Rescue Technicians wrote the syllabus, I would cheerfully follow it.
Master Corporal (retired) Rob Warner, CD, BA, etc.
Canadian Army Basic Paratrooper Wings
West German Army (Bronze) Paratrooper Wings
The SAR Tech School has actually gone to the extent of joining CSPA and using CSPA courses to train their people. However their mission is to train for and conduct Search and Rescues, not train civilians.
The Canadian Military is a small organization that is stretched aready with the current operational tempo. As an institution it would not want nor accept the mission of being the mandatory agency for the training of civilians in a recreational sport.
Obviously the coroner never asked them before making it a recommendation at the inquest.
Major Dad
CSPA D-579
AndyMan 7
I'm torn.
It's been painfully obvious that skydiving governance in Canada has been in a very poor state for years. Political infighting and commercial interests have set competing organizations against each other. I'm really not surprised that the fed's are stepping in, it's predictable when you don't have a strong national organization like the USPA in charge.
Skydiving governance in Canada has proven to be a joke. I'm not surprised the government wants it regulated.
I'm torn because I know that skydiving under the watchful eye of the DOT will suck greatly, but at the same time the track record has shown the national organizations have been incapable of doing it properly themselves.
It's such a shame that the industry hasn't gotten itself in shape long before this happened.
_Am (former member, CSPA)
It's been painfully obvious that skydiving governance in Canada has been in a very poor state for years. Political infighting and commercial interests have set competing organizations against each other. I'm really not surprised that the fed's are stepping in, it's predictable when you don't have a strong national organization like the USPA in charge.
Skydiving governance in Canada has proven to be a joke. I'm not surprised the government wants it regulated.
I'm torn because I know that skydiving under the watchful eye of the DOT will suck greatly, but at the same time the track record has shown the national organizations have been incapable of doing it properly themselves.
It's such a shame that the industry hasn't gotten itself in shape long before this happened.
_Am (former member, CSPA)
__
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.
riggerrob 558
Good point.
The Canadian Armed Forces are so small, that they struggle to maintain "critical mass" in hundreds of different skill sets. For example, the CSAR school sends students to the Justice Institute to learn the same medical skills as civilian ambulance attendants/para-medics/first responders/call them what you will.
In a sad twist of fate - during the last fatality in Pitt Meadows - one of the first responders (riding in a civilian ambulance) was a CF medic, probably on a "stage" (sorry, only the French word comes to mind) from the Justice Institute.
Similarly, after a parachuting accident circa 2000, the CSAR community realized that the CF lacked the expertise to update their parachute skills, so they turned to CSAPA. Now all the instructors at the CSAR School hold CSPA Coach and Instructor ratings.
The other reason the CSAR School switched to CSPA's rating system was to allow them to do refresher training from civilian airplanes.
Compare the cost of a civilian Cessna 182 with a Buffalo.
Yes, Buffalos are fun to jump, but they are getting "long in the tooth" with little chance of replacement before the 2010 Olympics.
This follows a general trend of Air Forces out-sourcing training to civilian contractors.
For example, out very own Skymonkeyone (SF Sargent Chuck Blue in a previous life) got a lucrative retirement contract with Lockheed Martin to run SF selection courses.
Similalry, I make a few bucks over the winter repacking chutes for Allied Wings (a subsidiary of Kelowna Flightcraft) which uses Grob trainers to screen prospective pilots for the Canadian Air Force.
The Canadian Armed Forces are so small, that they struggle to maintain "critical mass" in hundreds of different skill sets. For example, the CSAR school sends students to the Justice Institute to learn the same medical skills as civilian ambulance attendants/para-medics/first responders/call them what you will.
In a sad twist of fate - during the last fatality in Pitt Meadows - one of the first responders (riding in a civilian ambulance) was a CF medic, probably on a "stage" (sorry, only the French word comes to mind) from the Justice Institute.
Similarly, after a parachuting accident circa 2000, the CSAR community realized that the CF lacked the expertise to update their parachute skills, so they turned to CSAPA. Now all the instructors at the CSAR School hold CSPA Coach and Instructor ratings.
The other reason the CSAR School switched to CSPA's rating system was to allow them to do refresher training from civilian airplanes.
Compare the cost of a civilian Cessna 182 with a Buffalo.
Yes, Buffalos are fun to jump, but they are getting "long in the tooth" with little chance of replacement before the 2010 Olympics.
This follows a general trend of Air Forces out-sourcing training to civilian contractors.
For example, out very own Skymonkeyone (SF Sargent Chuck Blue in a previous life) got a lucrative retirement contract with Lockheed Martin to run SF selection courses.
Similalry, I make a few bucks over the winter repacking chutes for Allied Wings (a subsidiary of Kelowna Flightcraft) which uses Grob trainers to screen prospective pilots for the Canadian Air Force.
MajorDad 0
Full points to CWO Andy Morris from the CF School of Search and Rescue for working with CSPA over the years (especially with guys like Derek Orr from the Coaching Working Committee among others)
He recognized that the Forces could not provide the Center of Excellence training required for the SARTECHs. What was required by the military for the Airborne and Pathfinders was not what the SARTECHS required so he approched CSPA a number of years ago. Not sure what the JTF guys are doing since they started up just as I left the military.
He also comes down to Lost Prairie to do fun jumps 
This is, however, and example that while meaning well, the recommendations of the coroner's inquiry may not always be well thought out or have the desired result.
Major Dad
CSPA D-579
The big danger is that once this passes Transport will have the power to impose new rules without consultation. The other big worry is that rather than approving CSPA they would form their own rules body. some of the rules that have been suggested by judges and/or juries after fatality inquiries are things like: The first two or three jumps must be tandem, all students must have an altimeter, all parachutes must be approved, the Canadian military shall write all training curricula.
Skydiving in Canada is already about 40% more expensive than in the US, largely due to the need for a commercial operating certificate for our aircraft; several small DZs have closed in the wake of regulations designed for Air Canada being imposed upon Joe and his 182. The increased costs that will undoubtedly accompany more regulation will likely force more small operators out of business.
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