Demo jump question follow up.

[aresye 0]

About a month ago I made a post about a question regarding the possibility of making a demo jump into my own backyard, to surprise my parents and friends when I can take leave this fall/winter. Judging from the size of my backyard, and the many alternate landing areas, many on the board said it is definitely a possibility.

Well, the only concern I have with the jump is the fact that I live a little ways up a small mountain. For those that live in Pennsylvania, or the tristate area, they know that the local mountains are generally just a large rolling hill, compared to the steep, sharper peaked mountains on the West Coast.

My question is, will light winds coming from the South pose a danger? The mountain is approx. no more than 1500-2000ft above ground level. The landing area is shown in blue, with emergency divert areas in red. Obviously any strong winds coming from the East - South are going to pose a risk. The small tree lines to the North behind my house are actually lower than the house, so winds from the North will be ideal for final approach. The small tree lines to the West are fairly small trees, and the landing area is far enough away that turbulence should not be an issue if winds are coming from the North - West.

I've included an aerial photo of the area, and would like to ask several members of the board if this is a possibility, and what kind of effect mountains have on turbulence. Obviously I'll need to plan the spot very carefully, and I should be able to do that with a local experienced jumper. It would be a very small demo, with no more than 4 jumpers total, and because it wouldn't be a large event, I have absolutely no problem calling it off it conditions are not ideal.

In the end, it would be nice to surpirse family and friends, but if the conditions are not good, it could be a surprise in a very wrong way.

Most of the time the wind in my area is very calm, if not nonexistent. Some days there's a gental mountain breeze coming from the South, and others, a breeze from the North.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/aresye/DemoJumpLandingAreas.jpg

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[airtwardo 6]

Hell, I'd go for it !


A surprise demo @ 21 jumps?


...be pretty fuckin' spectacular either way it turns out.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sparkie 0]

my advice:

dont do it. Get at least 200 jumps in before doing demos.

Also a more general rule: when in doubt, dont jump.

A demo @ 21 jumps would be 100% stress and 0% fun imo anyway. Your family can wait for you to get a bit more experience?!

[jimmytavino 16]

don'tcha just love "youthful Enthusiasm"????


while i did my first demo, with a round, at about 80 jumps....

i was already pretty decent at getting near the pea gravel most of the time...

BUT ram-airs, in tight quarters, with or without winds... are a whole different story...

Cool that you have some one to look over your shoulder as you spot,,, But what If you NEED that "experience" to deal with the canopy flight,,, or the decision of when to turn from base leg to final,, or when to turn from downwind to base >>>? or how to tame down your canopy to get INTO the landing area...
those experienced guys might be doing just fine themselves... But where will you be, without them over seeing the entire descent??..
probably Ok..... but is it worth the chance???


Maybe So...... maybe no.....

Nice sized yard... and i see you've detailed the Optimum landing pattern,,, so you might be Ok... just don't go too far downwind..

.... and i hope that Mother nature, does Exactly as you wish.....regarding wind speed AND direction.... How far from the DZ is the site??? Don't forget your W D I ..........and pre determine the height difference of your demo terrain, as compared to the take off altitude 'above sea level'.. This factor impacts your altimeter setting and your AAD....
remember also that your AADs need to be energized at your demo site, and not your take off site,, and relatively near to the time of the demo... to account for atmospheric variations and changes...... PS.. you got an A license yet?????

stay safe.
j t

[ZeG 0]

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Hell, I'd go for it !


A surprise demo @ 21 jumps?


...be pretty fuckin' spectacular either way it turns out.

Just out of curiosity: I always thought you need a D license and a pro rating if you want to jump outside a dropzone. Or does that only apply for public areas and not for your backyard?
What is the regulation on this?

[yamtx73 0]

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Hell, I'd go for it !


A surprise demo @ 21 jumps?


...be pretty fuckin' spectacular either way it turns out.

Just out of curiosity: I always thought you need a D license and a pro rating if you want to jump outside a dropzone. Or does that only apply for public areas and not for your backyard?
What is the regulation on this?

If a D license was required to do a jump outside a drop zone then I'd say a majority of people doing their first balloon jump are in violation....

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[AndyMan 7]

Once they increased the jump numbers for a 'C' license, they also reduced the requirement for an open field demo to a 'C' license. So, you should have a 'C' at least to do this demo.

Me? That's an easy landing area. Looks bigger and less obstructed than many that I've done. I would have no problem doing it myself.

But, I would not have anything to do with someone with less than 200 jumps attempting this.

Even if the poster gets permission from his DZ, he's still breaking USPA rules. Demo jumps are one area where USPA rules should be considered to have the full force of FAR's, so I do not recomend breaking them.

There's a BIG difference between a demo jump and landing off in some farmers field.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ZeG 0]

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Once they increased the jump numbers for a 'C' license, they also reduced the requirement for an open field demo to a 'C' license. So, you should have a 'C' at least to do this demo.

Me? That's an easy landing area. Looks bigger and less obstructed than many that I've done. I would have no problem doing it myself.

But, I would not have anything to do with someone with less than 200 jumps attempting this.

Even if the poster gets permission from his DZ, he's still breaking USPA rules. Demo jumps are one area where USPA rules should be considered to have the full force of FAR's, so I do not recomend breaking them.

There's a BIG difference between a demo jump and landing off in some farmers field.

_Am

So if I have a pretty big backyard and convince a pilot to fly me there it would be allowed?

[bozo 0]

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Hell, I'd go for it !


A surprise demo @ 21 jumps?


...be pretty fuckin' spectacular either way it turns out.

I agree.
did my first "demo" into a Thanksgiving party , with a round , at a whopping 14 jumps.
I took out the long serving table.....luckily before the food was out. Made quite a splash for my friends.
It was a long time ago before we became "mainstream".

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[SPAWNmaster 0]

There are FAR's covering the use of private aircraft for skydivers...there's a whole discussion on these in the incident report forums.

It's not that simple and you would be most likely breaking the rules doing a bandit jump. Rules are there for a reason, but I mean it's not unheard of for people to break rules...don't be a sheep afterall. At the same time if your trying to break rules at least be safe about it.

OR you could do it the right way and wait till you have the experience and reqs. That backyard leaving any time soon?

you could also look into getting waivers (which would surely be difficult considering you're on student status).

my 2cts

[DougH 270]

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Once they increased the jump numbers for a 'C' license, they also reduced the requirement for an open field demo to a 'C' license. So, you should have a 'C' at least to do this demo.

Me? That's an easy landing area. Looks bigger and less obstructed than many that I've done. I would have no problem doing it myself.

But, I would not have anything to do with someone with less than 200 jumps attempting this.

Even if the poster gets permission from his DZ, he's still breaking USPA rules. Demo jumps are one area where USPA rules should be considered to have the full force of FAR's, so I do not recomend breaking them.

There's a BIG difference between a demo jump and landing off in some farmers field.

_Am

So if I have a pretty big backyard and convince a pilot to fly me there it would be allowed?

Not if you are a USPA member. The requirement is 200 jumps with a C license for the most basic of demos.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[ZeG 0]

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Once they increased the jump numbers for a 'C' license, they also reduced the requirement for an open field demo to a 'C' license. So, you should have a 'C' at least to do this demo.

Me? That's an easy landing area. Looks bigger and less obstructed than many that I've done. I would have no problem doing it myself.

But, I would not have anything to do with someone with less than 200 jumps attempting this.

Even if the poster gets permission from his DZ, he's still breaking USPA rules. Demo jumps are one area where USPA rules should be considered to have the full force of FAR's, so I do not recomend breaking them.

There's a BIG difference between a demo jump and landing off in some farmers field.

_Am

So if I have a pretty big backyard and convince a pilot to fly me there it would be allowed?

Not if you are a USPA member. The requirement is 200 jumps with a C license for the most basic of demos.

200 Jumps and C license? Nice that is not too far off. Maybe another year.

[BillyVance 34]

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Hell, I'd go for it !


A surprise demo @ 21 jumps?


...be pretty fuckin' spectacular either way it turns out.

I agree.
did my first "demo" into a Thanksgiving party , with a round , at a whopping 14 jumps.
I took out the long serving table.....luckily before the food was out.

We oughta name you crash test bozo. I bet that one was real funny. Did anybody get video?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[bozo 0]

We oughta name you crash test bozo. I bet that one was real funny. Did anybody get video?

Uh.....Billy...they didnt have video yet.
Ive got a couple still shots of the mess but I cant find 'em.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[DougH 270]

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We oughta name you crash test bozo. I bet that one was real funny. Did anybody get video?

Uh.....Billy...they didnt have video yet.
Ive got a couple still shots of the mess but I cant find 'em.

My first demo was into a middle school athletic field in the middle of a tight down town area, with 200 or so jumps.

My nick name easily could have been Zzzzzap if I screwed the setup and they had to fish me out of the powerlines, or Golgor Mower Downer of Children.

Once I get my second rig setup with a nice 7 cell I am going to start working on my Pro rating, my current canopy is too hot, and I want to represent the sport the right way.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[councilman24 36]

So, you're going to make a jump into an area with maybe 60% woods. Can YOU spot that well? Can anybody else going?

Your planning on landing going toward a building? Ever overshoot? Then what? Low turn to break your neck? Not to mention you ask if wind out of the South, meaning your landing going DOWNWIND toward that building, is okay.

"so winds from the North will be ideal for final approach" So now you think that landing down wind from a building, heading toward it is good? Trees aren't the only thing that causes turbulence. Yep, every thing is going great, heading for a landing close to the house into the wind. Then you hit the rotor off the house and land about 30 seconds before you plan on it. Are any of your relatives paramedics? Might be good if they are.

You can get significant turbulence off a small (10') hill in the field, let alone a house, garage, trees, etc.

"The small tree lines to the West are fairly small trees, and the landing area is far enough away that turbulence should not be an issue if winds are coming from the North - West."

Turbulence in light to moderate winds can go 10 times the height of the object. 10' tree = 100' turbulent zone. Farther with higher wind.

You have outs on one side. That's not much.

You want to surprise you family. What surprise are you going to have? A volleyball net? Kid's running around?

How much experienc will you have with the canopy your jumping? Can you handle ALL of the situations that might arise?

This is an all around bad idea. A lot of us did stupid stuff when we were newbies. A lot of us got away with it. Some of us didn't. But some of your discussion shows an incomplete knowledge of wind and turbulence. Wind from the North is a reason to NOT do the jump. Wind from the south, east and west are reasons not to do the jump. No wind meaning higher ground speed is a reason not to do the jump. EVERYTHING is a reason not to do the jump.

Give it up or have the video rolling.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[fastphil 0]

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Hell, I'd go for it !


A surprise demo @ 21 jumps?


...be pretty fuckin' spectacular either way it turns out.

Gotta love that attitude...

[kkeenan 13]

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... it would be nice to surpirse family and friends, ...

It would also be a surprise for them to watch the Fire Dept. get you down from hanging upside down in a tree - only not so nice.

Take the advise of those who have voted to wait for more experience. All the stuff you don't know would work against you in this jump. When you have 200 jumps and look back, you'll be amazed that you were even thinking about doing this.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[JohnRich 4]

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I always thought you need a D license and a pro rating if you want to jump outside a dropzone.

Quit drinking the USPA koolaid.

You don't need jack fucking shit from the USPA to do a demo jump. You only need to meet their requirements if you want to buy their demo insurance. The USPA has no regulatory authority outside their member DZs. Otherwise, as long as you obey FAA regulations, you're still legal.

[DougH 270]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if he is a USPA member he needs to follow the BSR's if he is at a group member dropzone or not.

I am not saying this is right, wrong, or otherwise; but I thought that was the case as far as the USPA sees it.

You are absolutely right however they have no method of enforcement, but I seem to remember the USPA pulling instructor ratings of individuals for sketchy shit filmed while they were acting in the capacity of an instructor overseas, and not at group member dz.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[PhreeZone 15]

You are correct that the USPA has pulled members ratings and memberships for actions taken at Member and non-member dropzones both domestically and overseas.

The USPA says you need to follow the BSR's. The FAA requires you to follow the FAR's. Require trumps says in this case. You need the USPA if you want insurance and having the PRO rating makes it really easy for the FAA to sign your paperwork which is required for most airshow/large crowd event things.

I'd be leary of that demo jump with how it is described now. If you were talking middle of the midwest where the largest hill is 30 feet and its miles and miles of corn fields... no problem. With the need to land around obsticles that cause a lot of turbulence? That gets shakey for decision making. Having no overshoot area is also a real issue with limited experience under canopy.

The biggest issue I have with this for some one is that the outs need to be headed too really early to make them safely. The out to the North is really pushing it since you need to overfly a out of items that you really want nothing to do with like trees, roads, a house and I assume powerlines. The fields right to the west are going to be hard to approach into if there is little wind since if you make the turn to enter them you will be picking up speed and run the risk of overshooting into a tree line again. The large field way to the west is the best option of the whole thing since it gives you a wide variety of options for patterns to fit the wind/weather but then its near impossible to reach if you wait until you are about to turn to crosswind to abort. The decision to make this field would need to be made at 1000 feet and at that point you shouldn't have even got out of the plane.

I'd still wait until you have 200 or more jumps to get the accuracy skills down that you will want on a jump like this. On every jump you make you need to make it an accuracy jump where you are making smooth approaches to the target and learning what to do if you are overshooting or coming up short.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SpeedPhreak 0]

C. EXPERIENCE AND ABILITY

1. Open Field and Level 1, as defined by USPA and
accepted by the FAA (all of the following):
a. USPA C license or higher
b. minimum 200 jumps
c. 50 jumps within the past 12 months
d. five jumps within the previous 60 days using the
same model and size canopy to be used on the
demonstration jump
e. For tandem jumps, the above requirements do not
apply to the tandem student

2. Level 2 and Stadium, as defined by USPA and
accepted by the FAA (all of the following):
a. hold the USPA PRO rating (required by
the BSRs)
b. 50 jumps within the past 12 months
c. five jumps within the previous 60 days using the
same model and size canopy to be used on the
demonstration jump

SkydiveAllegan.com

[brucet7 0]

As a student with twenty jumps, I cannot imagine trying anything like this. No windsock would be enough to deter me. I have missed too many targets along the way. May someday when I am near perfect. The other day I got in trouble with the wind at my DZ and ended up the the flower bed of the company two hangers down and across the tarmat from the landing zone. The biggest danger I see in the support is getting too confident in our abilities.

POPS #10623; SOS #1672

[airtwardo 6]

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Hell, I'd go for it !


A surprise demo @ 21 jumps?


...be pretty fuckin' spectacular either way it turns out.

I agree.
did my first "demo" into a Thanksgiving party , with a round , at a whopping 14 jumps.
I took out the long serving table.....luckily before the food was out. Made quite a splash for my friends.
It was a long time ago before we became "mainstream".

That's what I'm talkin' about Bozo!

I did my first demo into a baseball stadium, right next to the Mississippi, wearing smoke, on a round...with 22 jumps!



...ignorance IS bliss!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[aresye 0]

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...possibility of making a demo jump into my own backyard, to surprise my parents and friends when I can take leave this fall/winter.

I'm surprised nobody caught on to this. I am not planning on doing this jump for awhile. I am still a student, and will likely be getting my A license this weekend, I hope. I did the math. If I jump at least 4 times a weekend, which sounds like it'll be a possibility once licensed, or more, then I should have over 100 jumps by the time it would come around that I would even consider doing this.

I completely agree with all of you. As a student with only 21 jumps, it would be moronic to try and attempt something like this now.

EDIT: Also, I've been talking to my dad about the possibility of this jump. He and I have been keeping it down low, so it can be a big surprise for the rest of my family and friends, by having a welcome home party planned. Everybody except my dad would be expecting me to pull up in my car. My dad and I would also get together before the jump, so we can place wind socks, zero altimeters, and judge conditions. Nobody else would think twice about a wind sock.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.