rear riser landings

[djta0707 0]

i want to land a few jumps on my rear risers so if i ever have to use them in a situation i will know exactly what to expect. what do i need to be expecting when i flare. how does the canopy react. thanks for your advice in advance

[mdrejhon 8]

Given insufficient info; so a safe boilerplate answer.

(1) Talk to your instructors on dropzone. Although you might be reluctant to, it's something that really needs to be watched and taught in person in order to be done safely.

(2) Get Brian Germain's book "Parachute and its Pilot"; very great reading and answers this question too. It is a popular book around here.

[iluvtofly 0]

I had to do a rear riser landing once. Expect to use every ounce of muscle you have in your arms. Also, expect the flair not to be as great as usual.

[AggieDave 6]

This is a question you need to be able to answer yourself long before you apply the skill (or lack there of) to your landing.

This is easy, you need to do some altitude clear and pulls.

First things first, you need to understand how the flare works with the toggles and what your canopy does right before it breaks into a stall on the toggles. Look up and do some flares. Watch what happens to you and your canopy during the flare stroke. You swing forward under the nose of the canopy, pitching the canopy's nose up, changing the angle of your canopy.

Now do the same thing with your rears (with your toggles in your hands). Start with a rear riser stall. Notice how its very different from a toggle stall. You'll need to do a number of them so you learn what your canopy feels like when it starts to break into a stall.

Now complete some flares with your rears while you're up there. Look up at the canopy and see how the flare differentiates from a standard toggle flares. This would be best served while flying with your canopy mentor relative to you under canopy. This will help give you a reference in which you can see how your rears vary from your toggles.

Rear riser landings aren't that hard, but they're just different and take some practice and an understanding of the added risks you're incurring by bringing this technique to the ground.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pilotdave 0]

It's a great idea to practice it before you need to do it. But I'd also recommend not just going and trying it after reading advice on the internet. It can be done safely, but it is a lot trickier than a normal landing. The amount and timing of the flare will be different.

My only injury in skydiving (which was minor) was on a rear riser landing (landing off in a back yard with a stuck brake). I know another jumper that attempted a rear riser landing after breaking a steering line. He had 500 jumps and ended up breaking his back (luckily it got better).

Be careful and get proper training. It'll include a lot of practice up high and finding the rear riser stall point.

Dave

[jdatc 0]

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My only injury in skydiving (which was minor) was on a rear riser landing (landing off in a back yard with a stuck brake).

Be careful and get proper training. It'll include a lot of practice up high and finding the rear riser stall point.

Dave

Funny, I had to do my first one today for a stuck brake, 6th jump of the day..... I thought the canopy opened weird, and after checking, realized it was a done deal, hard knot, no getting it out.

Few practice flares up high, and it was all good. Stood it up fine, but was pissed at myself for not being more careful with my excess brake line stowage.

Thought about hook knifing it, and just flying with the stearing line in hand, but didn't want to bother with getting a new brake line put on, and rear risers work fine. Funny thing was it never occurred to me to use one toggle and one rear riser.... Even though I always thought I would do it that way.

I've seen someone break their tailbone on a rear riser landing for blown toggles (base), so I made sure *not* to stall the thing....

A good experience, and a valuable lesson for a nickel.

_justin

[CSpenceFLY 1]

This is nothing to play with. Read every post in this thread and take them to heart. There is alot of good info here. Not so long ago I landed a canopy with a broken steering line and almost broke both of my legs. If I had it to do over I would go ahead with my normal hook and slide it in or cut it away. You can go from an ok flying canopy to broken in a heart beat. Please get some canopy coaching on this matter.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

It would be helpful to know your actual jump numbers.

[tripleflip18 0]

wow, i land 30-40% of my landings with rear risers, its a bit differnt but you can still get a great lift with them. Also all landings easy stand up landings... jumping with 1.1:1

[jdatc 0]

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It would be helpful to know your actual jump numbers.

Hmm...

7 wingsuit jumps today, 4 the day before, 1 wednesday last week....

Then got weather'd out on my BASE jump last night....

Does that help?

_justin

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Good for you with your 1 to 1 wing loading and 58 jumps. Either that or you have 1058 jumps and you are a swooper in which case you will understand the latter part of my post. It's a bit hard to tell here who you are actually talking to.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

It helps some. It is a valid question after a look at your profile.

[mdrejhon 8]

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I had to do a rear riser landing once. Expect to use every ounce of muscle you have in your arms. Also, expect the flair not to be as great as usual.

I think it varies by canopy and canopy size. Your profile says a 230. Rear riser landings on my Sabre 170 doesn't use much strength, and if I pull rears too hard or far down, the canopy threatens to stall on me. Sometimes rear riser pressure is relatively light on some small canopies and some people actually prefer to rear-riser land some of them than toggles.

To the original poster (Especially if you're a student): The risks is why it's very important to consult some form of a professional such as instructor in person, and to play at high altitudes to test the rear riser flares many times first. Flare slow, fast, shallow, deep, compare the flare to the normal toggle flare etc. Rear riser landings can be easy when it's done properly but it's a whole different ballpark where you can get hurt if you try to flare it like the rears were just you do with your toggles; unlike pulling toggles on most canopies (of new jumpers) is adjusted where full stroke does not reach stall point, pulling rears too far can cause a stall and cause broken bones. This isn't as much of a concern for big docile student canopies, if that's what you're jumping, but the risk is there. You can stall with toggles, but on most typical canopies, it is much easier to stall with rear risers on most canopies, and crash land as a result. Treat it as if you're learning the flare of a totally new canopy, do the high altitude practice normally associated with jumping a different canopy, the flare is very unfamiliar on the first time. As always, be safe, talk to the appropriate guy on your dropzone (aka the good 'ol instructor) especially if you're a student or new jumper, since you didn't enter jump numbers...

[djta0707 0]

i have 18 jumps which include 2 tandems,11 with a 230 student canopy and 5 with a 190. i have been fortunate enough to land all but two (which were on aff levels) standing up. i know stand up landings is not that important. it is good safe landings that are much more of importance. i asked the rear riser question not to go play with it but to get some pointers on the idea so when the day came i would be able to safely land and jump another day. i am young in the sport and i dont do anything with consulting my instructors 1st at SDA.

[pcnut 0]

I will tell you what I was told with 40 or so jumps still on a student rig by the great Melanie Curtis

DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

not on a student rig for sure.....its very easy to screw up a landing using rear risers..

I could get more detailed but I need to goto bed soon....doing my first balloon jump at 6am

talk to your instructors.....

dont do it...

edit: personally ANY jumper that brags about alot of stand up landings is an egomaniac....a stand up landing in NO WAY equals a perfect landing....

cya,
Steve

[Baksteen 84]

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Funny thing was it never occurred to me to use one toggle and one rear riser.... Even though I always thought I would do it that way.

Please don't!
I've yet to attempt landing on rears since I do not master my canopy enough yet, but even so I can say that landing with one toggle and one riser is a bad idea.
A toggle flare is very different from a riser flare (I did practice up high). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be very afraid that were I to use one of each the "flarepower" on each side would be uneven, causing a dive at flare time.

@CSpence:
I know nothing of swooping, but would you really hook a canopy which is less than 100% functional? How'd you abort if you misjudged your hook?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[JohanW 0]

The increase in speed means you have to give less input to level it off to the point where you have zero vertical speed; horizontal speed does not kill (no guarantees, no refunds). So you can keep (a little) farther away from the rear riser stall. Of course, you might have thrown away more margin by hooking (carving) it in than you're getting back from the induced speed. It might be unrecommended to try this if you don't level out your swoop on rears most of your jumps anyway.

You'd abort .. on rear risers, I guess. Nothing else there, is there?

Actually, there is.

Sharply dropping the fronts has much the same effect as a short stab at the brakes. Refer to BrianG's book for a fuller explanation of this.

On Stilettoes and the like, a very well-timed and well-executed release of the fronts might be enough to level out without any additional input. Of course, you might find out the reason your canopy normally does that is your brakelines are really too short, and you've just cut away that tension because you couldn't get the half brakes untangled. Oops. Ouch.

So no, it's not instant death to land on rear risers, it's not even an accident waiting to happen to make a nice carving approach, or even to hook it in. But it's lurking in the background, just 'round the corner.

Know your options, know the pros and cons, and be careful out there.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

What he said

[billvon 2,435]

>how does the canopy react.

It will be much harder to flare, and will take more effort.

It will stall WAY before you think it will.

Do a lot of practice flares up high. Find out where the stall point is. This is the point you can not exceed when actually landing, although the temptation will be high.

[champu 1]

Knowing and being comfortable with your canopy are very important. So I highly recommend to anyone that they spend some quality time up high (and alone if possible) with any canopy you jump. That includes seeing how it turns and recovers from harness, front riser, rear riser, and toggle inputs, and how it flares, approaches a stall, and recovers using both brakes and rear risers. Paying attention to what your canopy is telling you from its four corners all the while, and learning to speak its language. This is information you'll use on every jump and on every canopy flight.

I also recommend doing hop-n-pops and flying a standard three-leg landing pattern alone in full-flight, brakes, on a little fronts, and on rears (ending in a normal straight in approach from full flight) to see how these inputs change how quickly or slowly you eat up altitude and how long it takes to get to your next leg. This is extremely important to know when encountering traffic so you can create separation in the pattern, and avoid incidents like the one in Eloy a week ago.

But what I wouldn't recommend is actually performing a complete landing on rear risers, "to prepare you in case you break a steering line or jam a toggle while releasing them." You'll want to have a bunch of jumps on the canopy to understand its flight characteristics (and a bunch of jumps in general to understand what, "understanding its flight characteristics" means ) before you land on rears. You also should have a bunch of landings under your belt to be familiar with the sight picture of a successful landing, because landing on rears requires more precise timing, and familiarity with this sight picture is what's going to allow you to achieve that precise timing.

The same argument goes for not learning to land with both toggles in one hand, "in case you dislocate a shoulder in a freefall mid-air" or intentionally landing in a 15 mph downwind, "to prove to yourself you can so you're not tempted to make a low turn after miscalculating your pattern" or cutting away a perfectly good canopy, "to make sure you could get to both your handles." These are all things where the potential to injure yourself is very real, and the simplest solutions to the "problems" were never canopy heroics anyway.

[MarkM 0]

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DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, he can think about it and learn to do it now in a controlled safe environment or he can wait until there's a high stress emergency situation that forces him to do it.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

See? Its a leap of faith.

Just like: "Land into the wind!"

[mdrejhon 8]

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I will tell you what I was told with 40 or so jumps still on a student rig by the great Melanie Curtis

DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, that does not mean you shouldn't practice rear riser flares above 2000 feet. A knot on a reserve brake or reserve toggle falling off, you're going to HAVE to do a rear riser flare on a typical non-student canopy, whether you like it or not! So practice anyway. Just don't attempt to land on rears without consulting your instructor first.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

I agree half on each side of this conversation. I think it is smart to think about this and try it, but on the other hand, you have to understand what you're doing and what will happen.

I had the exact same logic as the OP when I started. I held off because I didn't know exactly what would happen, and wanted to really understand where my canopy stalled first.

I did it for the first time recently and thought it was a great learning experience. I was confident that I knew enough to land safely, which I did. The first one was entertaining though. I planed out and still had a bunch of forward speed...ran for 5 steps and my body was moving faster than I could run, so I did some nice flips. Second one I stalled the canopy when I was about a foot off the ground, stood the landing fine. Neither jump is what I would call graceful.

Nonetheless...understand what you're getting into. I'd suggest getting na few more jumps before trying this, just so you've had some time under canopy, time to play with your canopy and learn how it reacts.

FYI: Probably a third of my jumps or more are hop and pops from altitude. I love doing hop and pops because I get to play with my canopy without having to worry about any other traffic.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[everymansaved 0]

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I will tell you what I was told with 40 or so jumps still on a student rig by the great Melanie Curtis

DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, since you have no info in your profile, I'm not sure who you are, but I do respect MC's opinions. That being said, I have to disagree. Rear riser landings are something that can be done by low timers. I landed my Tri 190 on rears when a toggle came off the steering line @ ~30-40 jumps with no problems. In fact, if I think back, I believe it was in the FJC I took to land on rears should you have a broken steering line on your first jump. The reasoning behind that is that you have a fully inflated, flyable parachute over your head, and as much as nobody likes to think about it, riggers can make mistakes. I'm not sure about you, but I'd feel pretty dumb under a reserve mal just having cutaway from a good main with a broken steering line...

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.