talk to your instructors! (help a retarded moron)

[virgin-burner 1]

recent discussions and rather unfriendly PM's (hence the title) make me wonder: why is it, whenever someone asks a specific question, he gets the answer: talk to your instructor.

if one so does, and bases his choices on that, its said that he'd rely on experiences of others.

well, this might be the case. but is it because some internet skygods only value their own opinion and dont like others to piss in their (swoop)pond?

excuse me, i rather trust the people that have been educating me, not some unfriendly person that knows it better in any case, calling me names and i dont know what not. or places bets on bounce-bingo, the sickest shit on earth..



and if you feel like notifying whoever you want, go for it, as its been done already. i'm not only known to be fucking annoying, i actually do listen and learn.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[shropshire 0]

Hi Chris,

It's the standard caveat that some people like to use to cover their arse and then ...

say nothing else - so that was a wasted post

or proceed to gfive advice that they are not qualified to give as they don't have experience that is relavant

Some people just need to be heard/read - strange.

As for calling people names and send snotty PM's - I've never understood that and wouldn't ever respond Fuck 'em - not that I ever get any I'm way too nice


Pick your battles mate - some people just aren't worth the loss of sleep.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[virgin-burner 1]

i'm also known to pick battles mate.. nothing new there!

and i wont loose my sleep over it. i just couldnt sleep because it was to damn hot last night..

but waking up in the morning, having an inbox full of shit, being banned on incidents.. not that would be new as well, but false accusations, you know, the whole list!

just doesnt make sense to me.

i wonder if the same people would say the same things to me face to face. if i say now "cowardish acting", that will get me banned here too, but thats the way i feel and i'm sure someone will have their feelings hurt over this..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Chubba 0]

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why is it, whenever someone asks a specific question, he gets the answer: talk to your instructor.

It stops me from starting threads here... I run everything pass my CI, but sometimes I wish people would play around a bit when I ask a question.

Fair enough tell me to ask my instructors in depth and be wary of "internet people", but whats the harm in people discussing it... I don't think anyones going to go yanking there front riser down till they bounce because someone on the internet told them to.

I don't mind lurking around though, I learn a lot by just reading.

[virgin-burner 1]

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why is it, whenever someone asks a specific question, he gets the answer: talk to your instructor.

It stops me from starting threads here... I run everything pass my CI, but sometimes I wish people would play around a bit when I ask a question.

Fair enough tell me to ask my instructors in depth and be wary of "internet people", but whats the harm in people discussing it... I don't think anyones going to go yanking there front riser down till they bounce because someone on the internet told them to.

I don't mind lurking around though, I learn a lot by just reading.

funny you say that: recently there was a guy on my dropzone that did just that on his licensing jump(s). suspicions were exactly those as described. he was a bit high on final..

now THAT could of started a nice discussion if he slammed himself into the ground, about how things are handled here and perceived by others "in the knowing"!?

otherwise i completely agree with you, i like to get suggestions or "new" ideas. in the end, i will go "home" and discuss it there. usually i get my head fixed, so much for quality of information then

but yea, i'm a curious mind!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[billeisele 123]

VB - I use that answer when it is a complex question that requires more information to answer than the post provides, even if all the information was provided it is still difficult to answer correctly, here is an example:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3244690;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

but if you want, please post or PM a question and I'll answer giving you the best advice I can, it might even be correct, then you can take the advice and make a potential life-threatning decision

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[Scoop 0]

People talk shit at the DZ, especially with a beer in their hand, so I don't see what the difference is personally. It's just another opportunity to discuss things.

When people say "talk to your instructors" that translates to me as "I can't be bothered to explain this again".

[virgin-burner 1]

bill, in the post that created this "mess", i specifically said: "but what do i know.."

tell you what: after i had aqquired my license, i was looking for gear. i got a javelin with no RSL offfered, with a sabre150 and a pdr143 in there. cypres2, very new. you know what i did first? i took it off the guy, walked the 15ft to the dude i talked about also in the other post. i'll gladly pm you his name, but if you're interested, you'll find out in a heartbeat. he's reputable.

i asked him: "whaddaya think? might be a bit small for me, nah?". that canopy puts me close to 1.3. i had 61 jumps for my last licensing jump. he looks me straight in the eye and says: "with a little bit of training, you'll be just fine with it!"

now you tell me: should i have asked you, or any other guy around here about it? he is my instructor and canopy coach. that doesnt mean i think you know shit or anything in that manner.

does it give you reason to call me names or say wether i or him are full of shit!? i dont think so.. if i was jumping at your dropzone, you got every right to tell me what you think is right, you could even ground me possibly for being a dumbass.

and i tell you another thing: he's one tough guy you dont want to upset. he's not the type of guy you want to get into discussions with. if you approach him, even after you fucked up, he will explain things in way even me can understand. do not let him approach you coz you thought your fuck-up was minor and didnt need talking..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

and before i forget: repeated PA's via PM do not seem to bother the moderators!

that leaves a lot of room for speculation.. none of which is nice..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[stratostar 5]

That the same guy who told you @ 61 jumps that "RSL are only for uneducated retards?"

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[peregrinerose 0]

I don't think the problem was that you talked to and listened to your instructors in the other thread. The problem was that you said something akin to "I don't have an RSL because Mr. 10000 jump skygod said that RSLs are only for people too uneducated about gear" or something along those lines.

That is the most grossly ignorant reason not to have an RSL I could possibly imagine.

If, instead you said, I don't have an RSL because... and had your own well formulated, well considered, and well thought out reasons for it, you would not have taken any shit at all.

Every jumper in this sport has their own opinions regarding suitability of gear/wing loading, appropriateness of RSL/AAD, etc. That's the nature of our sport... we are all to some degree type A, we all think our way is the right way, and we all want everyone else to think like us. We're an opinionated and vocal bunch... but that does students a huge disservice.

As an instructor, if I told a student or low jump number person to not get an RSL because in my opinion they are dangerous, that would make me a truly shitty instructor. Students look up to us for good education and information, it's our job to give it to them. I teach students exactly how RSLs work, how a Collins lanyard works, how a skyhook works. We discuss situations where they are extremely helpful, and situations where they could make a bad scenario worse. Students are free to ask questions, get a solid understanding of the systems in question, and are thus better equipped to make educated decisions of their own for their own gear.

The key word here is EDUCATED. Basing a major decision like this on one skygod's opinion is stupid. Basing a decision on actual facts and understanding is a wiser course of action.. and the difference between those two types of decision making is why you took so much crap.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[JohnRich 4]

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recent discussions and rather unfriendly PM's (hence the title) make me wonder: why is it, whenever someone asks a specific question, he gets the answer: talk to your instructor...

You'll get a variety of opinions here about whether things are right or wrong, what's best, what's safest, etc. Some of those people know what they're talking about, and some don't. Some may be knowledgeable about some things, but not others. And they don't know your personal skill levels and equipment.

So, listening to opinions here is fine, but when something doesn't sound right, or when you hear conflicting opinions, go talk to the people that know you personally; your instructors, and use them as a guide to sort out the chaff and set you straight. They're the ones that know you and your personal equipment the best, and are best able to give you as an individual the correct advice.

As for unfriendly PM's, you can go into your profile and block messages from User-ID's that are bothering you.

[virgin-burner 1]

thanks everyone for taking their time to respond to this.
education is good and is what keeps us safe in the end in this sport. and yes, i do like a varying set of opinions. and as i did in the past, and so i will in the future, i'll try to gather as much information as possible, build my own opinion about it and then carry it on to the place i jump at. mr. 10k+ skygod will eventually fix me up if i get completely lost on the way. in my eyes, that is a good thing!

now, dont take offense dear people, but there's a saying that opinions are like assholes: everyone has one! who would you advise your students to listen to? the anonymous guy on the interweb that's already bad-mouthed on another website, that keeps on sending insulting PM's and acts like an angry child? or the guy that teached you skydiving from the start and is a reputable guy? i hope you opt for the later..

yes, i now have blocked his attacks.

you know, its one thing to differ on opinions, but calling other people names n'shit is not the way to go on about it, hopefully, you will have an understanding of this.

i might come off like the typical knows-it-all, and maybe you're a little right. but that doesnt change the fact, that i DO listen. i'm trying to be the best "student" i can be, and i sacrifice quite a bit for that. yes, i'm a proud asshole!

again, no-one of you has ever met me, so, sure its hard for you to tell. but what i do have a HUGE problem with can best be described with: "c'est le ton qui fait la musique!" - "its the sound that makes the music!"

i must say, in this thread the sound is fine tough..
i think thats the way a forum should work, but i'm in no position to change that fact. so, please, also consider the "other side". not everyone's the same, and admittedly, i might be a little different from the rest..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JohnMitchell 14]

Some questions, like "How do I improve my landings?" or "What EP's should I use?" need to be addressed in person, where an instructor can watch the landings, or where gear specific procedures have been developed. Also, certain schools teach certain things certain ways. I've sometimes disagreed with the syllabus, but you teach it that way to lessen student confusion. That's why we sometimes don't want to give out to much info on the web.

We're not playing skygod. We've just seen some stupid stuff happen from bad advice, and wish to prevent a repeat.

[Para5-0 0]

If I can add two worthless cents: I often, in conversation, will give my opinnion on Down Sizing, RSL'S, Emergency Procedures, (Yes they vary sometimes), and other topics that we have all seen beat to death here online. I am also guilty of referring a student to his local Instructor as well. The reason for the later is that the Local Instructor Hopefully has more intimate knowledge of the student, IE maturity, demeanor, responsility, ability, athleticism......It is easier to make a sound recommendation to a student with as many facts pertinent to the individual....and remember it may need to hold up in court or the Instructor may need to have it hold up for himself mentally if something bad occurs due to his/her advise.
The other side: I have had student do things, and when I discussed it with them the old, I got the advise on the internet or an instructor from DZ X told me. The problem I run into is explaining, WELL that instructor may not be wrong but he did not have all the facts at hand when he told you that a 1.3 WL is okay for you.
I will be happy to help you out the best I can and point out as many of the pros and cons of decisions you will be making in the early stages. I will tell you if I knew you and you jumped at my DZ, and we had a drink together it might come from a better point of view. I will always err on the side of conservative if I do not have all or most of the facts. The old antage "Facts before Acts" PM any specific questions because I usually enjoy the learning process, I say usually because some speak but dont listen. Those are the tough ones. Don't ask if you already think you know the answer or are looking for only one answer. Good luck

[Baksteen 84]

Hi Chris,

I too often tell people to talk to their instructors or point at my low jump numbers.
After I do, I tell them what worked for me in a scenario not unlike the one they were describing, at my jump#s, canopy and WL, the weather etc etc etc at that time.

It's meant as a way to ensure that people do not blindly follow the stuff I'm saying, because what worked for me might be not the best solution for another person.

Take your 1.3 WL for example. If you were to tell me that was a great WL at (say) 75 jumps you might be completely right. Yet, if I would blindly follow that advice I would be in violation of Dutch regulations. Rules vary from country to country, r even DZ to DZ so whatever one reads on DZ.com might help you with understanding a given situation or with what questions to ask to gain that understanding, but should never be the only advice people listen to.
You, me and the other people posting regularly or lurking for a long time all know this. A newbie might not. Therefore it's worth repeating again and again; talk to your instructors and do not blindly heed any advice from someone you do not even know. Your life quite literally depends on it.

Blues,

Dennis.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[billvon 2,473]

You were banned from Incidents because of repeated personal attacks against Frost, including

"uneducated communist wannabe"
"Here’s your sign… Dumb ass… "

(And no, "I was just quoting something I found on the net" is not an excuse.)

Many of us lost a friend on Saturday. You will not be allowed to use his death to get your slams in on someone else.

>i wonder if the same people would say the same things to me face to face.

I suspect they would, if you pulled the same sort of stuff at the DZ that you do here. But I also suspect you would have the sense to not try.

[virgin-burner 1]

i'm now just replying to the last..
in the other thread it was about RSL's. let me explain my reasons to you, i cant recall what was told at safety day and the canopy course right now (yes, i attended both), i'm a little worked out after riding my bike to and from work. 1:40 hrs that was together.. i'll be superfit when i get my license again!
i'm somehow fond of RSL's. it makes a cutaway less complicated, one handle to pull, you should be alright. we had them on our studentrigs. i fear an entanglement for example, be it some horseshoe snagged on gear, around your arm or wherever. i do intend to jump a camera at some stage, dont be scared, not yet.. deploying a perfectly good reserve into a partially inflated or otherwise hanging out canopy does not seem to be the best of ideas for me.. maybe its another jumper midair, of course, somebody has made a major fuck up at the time.

i was told for a fatality or an incident to happen, there was usually a chain of events that led to this

its a great idea if you happen to have a low-pull. bill booth's law #1 comes to mind, the lower you pull, the longer your parachute will take to deploy, the greater the possibility is of having a malfunction. great to have a RSL then. well, i TRY to keep altitude aware, not only checking my altimeter, but also keeping an eye on the ground. if all else fails, i dont have one but two audibles to remind me i majorly fucked up. its very unlikely both should happen to fail on the same jump. same manufacturer, different models. if they do, and i havent shut my cypres2 on, it was probably destination for me to go that way.

informed decisions. i'd like to give three examples that i have experienced in my young jumper career:
first is my canopy. not talking wingloading here, but it being a sabre, it has a reputation. i was thought a certain way to pack as student. i got said canopy. the jumper that sold it to me, explained in detail to me how he packed. i did it that way but got sick of crazy linetwists on every second jump. he told me to roll everything supertight. seen the pd-video on packing a sabre. tried that. it started slamming me on every second jump. i was taught a third way as student. tried a little bit of this, a little bit of that with varying results. i'm now in a position i can pack my chute to open perfectly onheading, taking everything from a 1000ft snivel to my preferred, fuck knows, probably somewhere around 500ft. i like to feel it open, i dont want to hang ready on my handles everytime i deploy and wait for it to be nice n'square. so, all good.

pilot-chute packing: seen the video of brian germain. this is NOT what i was taught to do. seeing it, made perfect sense to me. great way! havent jumped it yet tough, so we'll see!

as for laws: in the UK you're required to wear a hook knife. not in switzerland. in fact, i hardly know of any jumper that has one. i know CREW-dogs carry up to six, some for lines, some for material. i think thats a bit excessive for me, altough i love knifes. i'm intending on getting. as a mate just said, also a reserve is only a parachute, a line-over on that could result in something very nasty.

soooo... i'm in no way saying i'm perfect, in fact, i think i still know shit. but i try to give reason to things that people are telling me. if someone fails to do so and starts name-calling. that person has lost any credibility in my eyes, no matter how good or how many jumps, in my books, that person has no business hanging around at a dropzone and curse himself an instructor even.



para5-0: i dont think that "whistle-blowing" is such a bad thing per se. in fact, the closer the net is, the less people are literally gonna fall through. it also shows that someone really cares and has dedication in what he/she does. the net at my dropzone is very close. you get a thorough talking for fuck-ups. we're a small club, 159 members as of last meeting.

it surely is different in the states where you find hundreds of people on any given day on the major dropzones. this is not the case in switzerland.

talking about landings: that was a BIG frustration for me. i almost landed in the stream next to the dropzone, close to the plane ( think of an RSL then!! anyone can say chop-chop!? ) more than once i had half the dropzone running for to check up on me, both on student canopies and my highly loaded sabre 150.. my running gag on this issue: years of falling school in judo finally have paid out.. well, canopy course, coaching, i'm now piloting my chute to the very last foot. winds are not the friendliest at my dropzone, probably some of the worst in fact. i can handle it all now. my accuracy still needs a lot of work. i know that, i work on it!

well, whaddaya guys n'gals think!? do i sound like a retarded moron as i have been called? i'm sure an idiot, but that has nothing to do with my jumping. as all of you, i'm vocal, have strong opinions.. is that a bad thing!? i dont think so.. if you think i'm wrong on any given point, PLEASE, correct me, say that's stupid, but tell me a fucking REASON!!!

and, uhm, yea, i fucking party harder than all of you!!

you're all lovely people!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

yes bill, and honestly, i dont think i've deserved any better! but its not as i wanted to use that thread to profile myself. all i said in the beginning was: "i wouldnt want to jump with an RSL or a skyhook".

reasons i gave just a post further up. adjust my attitude if you wish to do so

frost jumped at my throat for that. an unknown to me jumper. i will also forward his PM's to you if you wish so. so much for whistle-blowing in this case..

i told phreezone already, no bad blood. altough to me, some of the moderators actions seem not rational. but who is all the time, especially in the lights of the current tragedy. my sincere condolences to all involved. my sincere apology to those that felt offended. i was an inappropriate thing to do. i was an idiot. again, nobody's perfect all the time..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[bozo 0]

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well, whaddaya guys n'gals think!? do i sound like a retarded moron as i have been called?




Why , yes you do.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

• Quote

[virgin-burner 1]

you're lovely too! MUAH!

bozo..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[millertime24 8]

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i'm a little worked out after riding my bike to and from work. 1:40 hrs that was together.. i'll be superfit when i get my license again!

Good to hear it. Your legs will be in fantastic shape in no time. You'll find that beer taste much better after a good hard bike ride. FYI though, you can get a DUI on a bicycle (at least here in the US).

Muff #5048

[virgin-burner 1]

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i'm a little worked out after riding my bike to and from work. 1:40 hrs that was together.. i'll be superfit when i get my license again!

Good to hear it. Your legs will be in fantastic shape in no time. You'll find that beer taste much better after a good hard bike ride. FYI though, you can get a DUI on a bicycle (at least here in the US).

i think the same here.. but riding home for an hour drunk, i dont imagine that a very fun thing to do..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[millertime24 8]

Actually riding intoxicated with friends can be quite entertaining. You just have to do it far far FAR from anything that resembles law enforcement. I had one friend get a DUI on his bike because he ran into a cop car.

Muff #5048

[virgin-burner 1]

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Actually riding intoxicated with friends can be quite entertaining. You just have to do it far far FAR from anything that resembles law enforcement. I had one friend get a DUI on his bike because he ran into a cop car.

thats some funny shit..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda