The next fatality waiting to happen.....

[Superman32 0]

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I can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him.

I can't believe people would want to buy something so small and responsive without the skill to fly it.
It's one thing to have a newbie to just go on ebay and without knowing better buying something that isn't appropriate. But its completely bewildering to me that one would bullshit their way into buying something that is potentially or likely to be deadly

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[happythoughts 0]

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I wonder what disconnect in his wee brain made that a good idea.

$40 <<< $180!

Short ride in an ambulance. Priceless!

[Designer 0]

Wow!I can't agree more.If it was up to me the guy would be grounded at the dz(with that rig)and notices sent out locally to be aware of the idiot!40 jumps jumping what?Yikes!

[mr2mk1g 10]

My advice, were this to occur in the UK. Consider if a prosecutor were able to show that the seller knew the buyer’s exp. and wing loading but went ahead and sold him the gear anyway. The buyer then dies jumping this canopy.

Now I would not be at all surprised if criminal manslaughter charges followed. They’d just have to show the seller was so grossly negligent that they warranted a spell inside. I don’t suppose that would be hard to convince a jury of.

Now that's just based on UK law... but concepts like that tend to travel quite well.

Think about that for a moment. You sell a canopy. You do so with really bad advice but what do you care. The next thing you know you have the police knocking on your door, taking you in for 8 years.

[divnswoop 0]

Yeah, If it were up to me I'd try to leave the police out of it. Now if I found out that a very experienced person sold him the canopy and KNEW that this person wasn't anywhere ready for it.....well, he needs to be tried by his peers.(us skydivers) AND punished accordingly!

[crutch 0]

Here, here!

[demoss99 0]

I recently purchased a used triathlon 160 from a dealer. They were very careful about selling to me. They asked my number of jumps, my coach's name, our S&TA's name, what I had been jumping previously etc... I too was initially taken back by that (my money - give me the damn canopy - lol) but afterwards I realized they were not only trying to protect me, but the sport as well. Right after that I read this months "parachutist" article by Kevin Gibson "Two Down, X to Go" that touched directly on this topic. I'm glad to see this trend and support it.

"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

[Hans 0]

This person did his AFF training at my DZ. He rented a Manta 260 for several jumps after AFF, he then went to another local DZ where he met a man who was quitting the sport. I am not sure if he was truthful in his jump # to the man, but he showed up at The Farm to have the reserve repacked and I told him he would not be allowed to jump it at The Farm. He assured me he was not jumping it yet but he couldn't pass up the deal he got. He also told me the demo team he was doing GROUND CREW for said it would be ok for him to jump it on a WINDY day. This demo team has nothing to do with Skydive The Farm nor do they jump here. If he used my name I would like to KNOW.

The Farm

[divnswoop 0]

I'll PM you....

[skinnyshrek 0]

i believe he was ground crew for norm and preston. They also took a guy on a demo without an A license. Its shit like this that gives the sport a bad name. The guy in question only has around 40 jumps. He was given advice from these guys "you'll be ok on a windy day" What kind of shit is that? More action needs to be taken along these lines. I'm sick of these young hot rod jumpers trying to get into canopies way above there head. I am all for Billvons idea about regulating this downsizing.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[divnswoop 0]

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i believe he was ground crew for **** and *******. They also took a guy on a demo without an A license.

Yeah, I'm curious to find out more about this "demo" team and the seller of the gear.

[crutch 0]

The more I think about this the madder I get! This guy was an absolute moron and is being supported by morons. The deeper this story goes, the more I want to wring someone's neck. If you want to be stupid, do it in someone else's sport! Quit messing up our reputation! We have enough trouble with just the inherent danger of this sport, why do we have to let stupid people tarnish everything we work for?

[divnswoop 0]

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They also took a guy on a demo without an A license.

Is this the same guy that is having surgery to fix his broken leg? I agree Art, the more I'm finding out about some of these people in Georgia the more ticked off I'm getting. "You'll be alright on a windy day"......?!?! "Oh! I didn't know I couldn't drink then jump" !?!?

**edit to add: I know it's not all Georgia jumpers...just a select few **

[skinnyshrek 0]

Yes, there's a reason why hans won't let them jump on the dropzone. Instead of these guys taking advice they go and jump at a dropzone that will readily take their money. I know a guy with just over 150 jumps wanting to buy a katana loaded at 1.8 Everyone advised him against it but he still tried to obtain one. I'm glad PD did research and never sold him one. If every DZ tightens up it will save a few lives.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[mr2mk1g 10]

Yeah, don't get me wrong I wasn't suggesting in the slightest that law enforcement got involved in any way - just highlighting the fact that were anything to happen and questions were asked, there could be very serious and very real consequenses for people selling in such irresponsible ways. (in instances where they are aware of the buyers low exp. which may well not be the case here).

[BlindBrick 0]

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just highlighting the fact that were anything to happen and questions were asked, there could be very serious and very real consequenses for people selling in such irresponsible ways.

As much as I think there's an ethical burden to be selective in who you sell to, in the US there's no real legal burden. Here the law works under the assumption that the buyer shoulders the obligation for knowing if the purchased item is appropriate or in good condition. This is mirrored in the criminal code where the asusmption is that if you were dumb enough to buy it, you get to deal with the consequences.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[mr2mk1g 10]

Do you not have any kind of gross negligence manslaughter over there?

Over here I don’t think it would be that difficult for a prosecutor to convince a jury that the vendor was so grossly negligent in knowingly selling this canopy to this guy that he ought to be held criminally liable for that act.

By pointing that out I’m merely seeking to show just how seriously we should look at such behavior – albeit by perhaps using examples from a different jurisdiction.

[skybytch 259]

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But its completely bewildering to me that one would bullshit their way into buying something that is potentially or likely to be deadly

Oh but you don't understand. I'm sure this particular fellow is so much better at flying a canopy than any other person is at his jump numbers. And besides, as long as he flies it conservatively he'll be just fine!

I posted a couple of rants on this subject back when I was working at Square One. My favorite was the guy who wanted a sub-100 sq ft Stiletto at 20-ish jumps. He was pissed off that I wouldn't sell it to him - he had the money after all; according to him that's all that mattered.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do you not have any kind of gross negligence manslaughter over there?

Over here I don’t think it would be that difficult for a prosecutor to convince a jury that the vendor was so grossly negligent in knowingly selling this canopy to this guy that he ought to be held criminally liable for that act.

I don't think US law would ever apply manslaughter charges to someone for an indirect act like that. The person would have died for misflying a canopy - the seller merely provided the instrument. In general, you can't be prosecuted in either criminal or civil courts for selling a working product due to the misuse by the owner.

A wrongfull death suit (civil) is possible, but even then likely to not result in damages when the victim had history of mispresenting his experience.

[BlindBrick 0]

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Do you not have any kind of gross negligence manslaughter over there?

Over here I don’t think it would be that difficult for a prosecutor to convince a jury that the vendor was so grossly negligent in knowingly selling this canopy to this guy that he ought to be held criminally liable for that act.

I don't think US law would ever apply manslaughter charges to someone for an indirect act like that. The person would have died for misflying a canopy - the seller merely provided the instrument. In general, you can't be prosecuted in either criminal or civil courts for selling a working product due to the misuse by the owner.

A wrongfull death suit (civil) is possible, but even then likely to not result in damages when the victim had history of mispresenting his experience.

That's a pretty accurate interpretation. Here, the concept of gross negligence doesn't apply to sales except in a few very specific circumstances. The closest you could come to that over here is if the seller intentionally misrepresented the product. For example, say a salesman tells you you're getting a new Cypres when you are actually getting one of the trainwreck ones that Airtech declared unairworthy. Even here there's a test. If the salesman's claim is so outrageous as to clearly defy believability, it's not misrepresentation. This is the exception that a lot of the herbal diet products you see on US TV are protected by. In this case the claim that the average person willl lose 50+ pounds without an excercise routine and a diet modification is clearly beyond the bounds of believability.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[jumpwally 0]

What do you say to someone who wants to buy it,but swears he won't jump it,,he just wants to hang on to it till he can or enjoys picking up deals and then re-selling. I have friend like that, he'll buy anything and i mean anything,hang on to it and then sell it for a profit. How do you handle that? wally

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[divnswoop 0]

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What do you say to someone who wants to buy it,but swears he won't jump it,,he just wants to hang on to it till he can or enjoys picking up deals and then re-selling.

Well, that is exactly what this guy did.....The full story is out now. When he bought the gear and returned to his "home" dz, a senior jumper said he wouldn't be able to jump that gear for a while. (He went from a manta 260 to a diablo 135) He replied," I got such a good deal I couldn't turn it down."(after some experienced people said he could,"Jump it on windy days." wink,wink,good luck) Now it looks like he's traveling around trying to jump his gear. To get back to your question, I don't think you should have gear in your possession that your not experienced enough to fly. The temptation is there to get in the air with it. As far as reselling it...if your not capable of flying the gear yourself, how in the world can you talk intelligently about it to somebody else let alone be able to figure out if the buyer is "capable" of the chute. I know there are plenty of people who don't care who they are selling what to. I know if I sold somebody with little to no experience a canopy like this and they hook it in the next weekend, I'd have a bit of guilt about it. Obviously there are people out there that wouldn't.
The whole,"maybe the guy selling it just didn't know" doesn't fly in my book.(in this case) If you have 5000 jumps you've been long around enough and should be a little smarter than that. I guess I just feel that there is a buyer AND seller responsibility when it comes to gear. If your an inexperienced/uninformed buyer, you need to seek the advise of a instructor/s&ta. If your an experienced seller selling to an inexperienced jumper, I feel you have the same responsibility to discuss it with the buyers instructor. I am living case of somebody getting his hands on something that was over his head. In 1993 with 9 jumps I bought a brand new vector, swift 143, cypress, and a SABRE 120!! So with 23 jumps I had all brand new gear in hand and ready to jump. Why did I have a 120? because I had the $$ to buy it. Looking back I feel the DZO was very irresponsible for selling me this gear. I was lucky enough not to hurt myself on it, but the odds of an accident were VERY high with me.
ANYWAY, i sometimes doubt why we even discuss this stuff on here. There are still going to be people who do what they want and ignore suggestions from more experienced jumpers. Then we get to read about them in the incidents..(every single week this year!)

[jeiber 0]

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What if this guy spun that canopy up and went in?

Funny how you should mention that. To add a few more facts (I was visiting the DZ that day) to the story, he spun it up and cut it away. He called the situation a 'violent downplane'.

Prior to jumping, he was trashing the 'skygods' at The Farm for telling him that he was going to kill himself under that canopy. I met a few of the folks from The Farm at the Pink Mafia Boogie a few weeks ago, and they were all very cool people (can't wait to visit soon!). Anyway, that was my first hint.

On the way to altitude, we were discussing exit order, and he said he'd be freeflying, and not to worry about him under canopy, because 'I'm jumping a Diablo 135, I'll be the first one on the ground'. For all I knew, he was an experienced regular...

I could only shake my head when I saw him totally biff in his reserve landing (I wonder what THAT was loaded at). Needless to say he didn't get his reserve repacked, so he'll be trying to track down a rigger (or repack himself) sometime soon. As he was leaving, he made it a point to stop and tell me he'd see me at Dublin. I sure hope not...

I remember thinking 'there's gonna be a story about this guy by the end of the day'.... I had no idea it would be after the first jump. If you ask me, the worst part of the situation was the fact that he had his two young daughters there watching him. I can only imagine the scene if he would have gone in....

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[ianmdrennan 2]

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you ask me, the worst part of the situation was the fact that he had his two young daughters there watching him. I can only imagine the scene if he would have gone in....

I've been there after a serious accident (woman flew into a spinning prop - but lived). Hearing her teenage son screaming was the most heartwrenching thing I've ever seen in my life.

Choose wisely.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JeffSkydiver 0]

In the U.S., as well as in the U.K., from which most of U.S. criminal law finds its origin, a criminal act requires "mens rea," which means criminal intent. Criminal intent can be inferred from the surrounding circumstances. Example, if you shoot a rifle into a passing train just for the fun of it, without specific intent to harm or kill anyone, yet the bullet does strike someone in the train, criminal intent to harm or kill the human:

WOULD PROBABLY NOT be found if the train were a freight train and you shot into a boxcar since boxcars usually haul freight, not humans. If you harmed or killed the hobo in the boxcar, and you had no idea that there was a hobo in there, you would probably not be criminally liable for "intentionally" harming or killing the hobo. The law would infer that you did not intend to harm or kill a human. You would be criminally liable for a whole host of other crimes, including involuntary homicide: involuntary manslaughter or felony murder (2nd degree murder).

WOULD PROBABLY be found if the train were a passenger train and you fired into a passenger car. From the surrounding circumstances the law would infer that by firing into a passenger car, you intended to harm or kill a human, and being that is exactly what happened, criminal liablitly for "intentional" homicide, either 3rd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter would attach.

Extrapolate that example into the present facts and try to predict what a jury would conclude in this case.

Just a little exercise from your friendly skydiving law professor,

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.