MTV Putting skydivers in jeopardy

[Halfpastniner 0]

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Flying inflatable rafts,

I haven't seen the videos in question. But inflatable jumps happen at big boogies on a regular basis. Then stuff happens with the rafts and animals afterhours that you don't even want to know about.

Actually the flying rafts had nothing to do with airplanes. They had a boating raft that is shaped like an airfoil and when the boat is at full speed it gets to like 20 feet. They just showed one wipeout and it looked like it hurt!

BASE 1384

[stitch 0]

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Flying inflatable rafts,

I haven't seen the videos in question. But inflatable jumps happen at big boogies on a regular basis. Then stuff happens with the rafts and animals afterhours that you don't even want to know about.

Actually the flying rafts had nothing to do with airplanes. They had a boating raft that is shaped like an airfoil and when the boat is at full speed it gets to like 20 feet. They just showed one wipeout and it looked like it hurt!

What you really need to see is the video of the "Foam Pit" jumps in Pastrana's backyard from years ago.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[Halfpastniner 0]

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Flying inflatable rafts,

I haven't seen the videos in question. But inflatable jumps happen at big boogies on a regular basis. Then stuff happens with the rafts and animals afterhours that you don't even want to know about.

Actually the flying rafts had nothing to do with airplanes. They had a boating raft that is shaped like an airfoil and when the boat is at full speed it gets to like 20 feet. They just showed one wipeout and it looked like it hurt!

What you really need to see is the video of the "Foam Pit" jumps in Pastrana's backyard from years ago.

They showed a couple.
The kid on the superbike who cleared the foam by a fair amount and basically hit the ground from 15 feet. Or even better the guy on the bicyical who went off the right side and slamed headfirst into a bulldozer!

BASE 1384

[markovwgti 0]

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Flying inflatable rafts,

I haven't seen the videos in question. But inflatable jumps happen at big boogies on a regular basis. Then stuff happens with the rafts and animals afterhours that you don't even want to know about.

Actually the flying rafts had nothing to do with airplanes. They had a boating raft that is shaped like an airfoil and when the boat is at full speed it gets to like 20 feet. They just showed one wipeout and it looked like it hurt!

That thing is called the Flying Manta Ray....my friend used to have one....and let me tell you....it fucken hurts when you fall of of it!!

[firstime 0]

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The only thing criminal about that was the music they were playing.

This show would have zero effect on new jumpers. Just the whuffos and they already think we're all crazy anyway.

ding ding,,winner to OP

[airtwardo 6]

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The only thing criminal about that was the music they were playing.

+1

I didn't see any real evidence of low pulls on that video. Hard to judge, what with telephoto lenses available and all the editing done. Unless I hear some real numbers from the participants of their opening altitudes, I'll just write it off as hype.

What I saw that I didn't like were the cutaways above the water. Those looked disturbingly high, and have killed a number of jumpers over the year. It's tricky to judge your altitude over water, and looks benign enough that some impressionable noobs might want to try that.

Aren't they sponsored by an energy drink company?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[SStewart 13]

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I thought it was pretty sweet, and a fun promotion for our sport. Keep in mind it did not happen at any official drop zone, and was clearly a stunt.

The low pulls didn't appear to be that low, and heck, low pull contests have been around forever. I don't think any of those jumps would have beat my historical lows, and certainly they wouldn't have touched a naked low pull that earned me my only official grounding.

The cut-a-way's above water were a much bigger deal, and I hope that doesn't catch on, but even there, boys will be boys and it was a stunt.

Oh, and the 'fun with helicopters' component was terrific.

Wow Tom,
Base rigs out of an aircraft, clear violation and the pilot could lose his license. Do you really think they requested and were granted a waiver.? I thought you were a big stickler and outraged opponent of pilots breaking the rules?
Remember last summer? Were you not the same Tom Buch who was outraged that a pilot with decades of experience flying jumpers was in question for flying jumpers with a private license?

Aren't you the same guy who made a stink with the FAA and complained to USPA about this? (I was sent copies of the emails)
You are a commercial pilot right? Would you allow such jumps out of an aircraft you were in command of?
You seem to have a different attitude now but I guess you have no axe to grind with Pastrano.

Your standards for right and wrong seem to be very selective. All this time you have been preaching safety and it turns out you are really just a naked low puller.

Terrific!

(Edited for civility)

Onward and Upward!

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Base rigs out of an aircraft, clear violation and the pilot could lose his license.

I just watched the clip again. I didn't really pay attention enough the first time, but, yep, those are definite base rigs. That's illegal as hell in the U.S. I'd like to see a notice put out to pilots as to what a certain segment of jumpers seem to be intent on doing these days. I'm sorry if they are so in love with their base rigs, but they are not legal for aircraft use. We all know this. We need to educate all pilots about this.

[tombuch 0]

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Wow Tom,
Base rigs out of an aircraft, clear violation and the pilot could lose his license. Do you really think they requested and were granted a waiver.? I thought you were a big stickler and outraged opponent of pilots breaking the rules?
Remember last summer? Were you not the same Tom Buch who was outraged that a pilot with decades of experience flying jumpers was in question for flying jumpers with a private license?

I didn't see or comment about the BASE rigs, and that element wasn't mentioned in this thread until after my post (reread the thread).

If their BASE rigs were non-TSO'd I do have a problem with it, unless they had a waiver from the FAA. And it wouldn't surprise me (or bother me) if the FAA followed up. I'd also say that if the jumpers failed to completely inform the pilot about the type of equipment they were using then they should face the brunt of the violation penalty under 105.43.

In the case of a stunt like this one the pilot can be placed in legal jeopardy (as can the jumpers). I do have a problem with the very idea of violating the FAR's with non-TSO'd gear, but it's slightly less troublesome if all the participants understand what the regulations say, and what the penalty will be. It would be a real travesty if these guys neglected to tell the pilot that they were violating the FAR's with his license on the line. I believe we should respect our pilots and the very minimum FAA regulations. And no, I would not have allowed jumps with BASE rigs from my airplane.

You are correct that I have become a stickler for FAA regulations and that I strongly object to a private pilot flying jumpers, especially students. I believe in the concept of informed consent. We should follow the FAA regulations, but if for some reason a private pilot is gong to fly jumpers he should make sure every single participant understands what rating he has, and that he is violating federal law. And the participants should be well enough versed in aviation matters to understand what is required of a jump pilot, and how the training and testing of the private/commercial certificates relates to those flight skills. Many of the jumpers being flown by the private pilot had idea he didn't meet FAA regulatory standards.

In the case you are talking about a student skydiver committed suicide by jumping from an airplane flown by a private pilot. The private pilot had been warned about the need for a commercial certificate in the past, and the publicity of the case was great. To allow that case to remain unprosecuted would have set a precedent that would have allowed other private pilots to fly jumpers. And that would have a significant negative impact on industry wide safety.

The two issues are very different.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[popsjumper 2]

MTV is not putting anyone in jeopardy...the participants are doing to themselves.

Stupid people doing stoopid shit is going to screw the entire sport up when the FAA gets tired of all the BS and comes to the conclusion that we can't regulate ourselves. They will step in and do it for us and I guarantee that you won't like what they come up with.

Stupid people doing stoopid shit is forcing the FAA in that direction...slowly but surely.

I don't see how anyone could condone these "stunts".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[EDYDO 0]

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We should follow the FAA regulations, but if for some reason a private pilot is gong to fly jumpers he should make sure every single participant understands what rating he has, and that he is violating federal law.

Tom, you have been repeating that for years. Again, there are a number of cases where private pilots can fly skydivers and it is perfectly legal.

Blue Skies,
Ed

[MakeItHappen 15]

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We should follow the FAA regulations, but if for some reason a private pilot is gong to fly jumpers he should make sure every single participant understands what rating he has, and that he is violating federal law.

Tom, you have been repeating that for years. Again, there are a number of cases where private pilots can fly skydivers and it is perfectly legal.

Blue Skies,
Ed

The case Tom mentioned (the no chute suicide) was a scenario that did violate the FARs.

To my knowledge USPA has done nothing about that incident.

USPA has also not done anything about a GM DZ that had several people disciplined by the FAA by pulling airmen certificates, relating to the maintenance and operations of jump aircraft. The GM program puts USPA squarely in the line of sight of attorneys that sue the DZ that causes loss of life. USPA steps up and says it will self police activities of DZOs, pilots and manufacturers in order to keep the FAA out of regulation of skydiving ops. When something bad happens, USPA may be held responsible for the actions of others. Part of USPA's liability comes from not doing the right things and some of it comes from publicly assuming the safety responsibilities. USPA's inaction in the MO accident may lead to being named in a lawsuit.

As an example, see page 71 of the Summer 08 Minutes and this issue of the Professional. USPA's statements lead to USPA being named as a defendant in a $50M lawsuit.

USPA is in a 'sticky-wicket' position. It tries to fend off undue regulation by the FAA, but every time it does it places itself in the line of fire of lawsuits.

If USPA had some more backbone they would be able to fend off the FAA and get out of the line of fire, simultaneously. USPA needs to focus more on the public welfare than protecting corporations, even if that means pointing a finger at a corporation. USPA needs to follow its own rules too, to exacting detail. The 'hey we don't have to follow (or enforce) such-n-such rule if we don't want to' may get USPA into more trouble.

The FAA can certainly see that this MTV stunt (N445AP) and the birdsuit base-rig jumper that went in earlier this year are outside the domain of the USPA. The FAA can see that the Dwain Weston fatality and TP's chuteless jump were within the purview of USPA.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[zoom1 0]

stupid people doing stupid stuff ,kind of like going to a boogie drinking all night then decide to do a mr. bill the next day?like i said in another thread lets limit the air space to 1 person at a time ,mandatory 5k pulls, no canopies smaller then 200,no more boogies that encourage stupid stuff. if we follow every rule to the letter the public (and the sky nazi's)will love us . but really folks if someone is doing something that can hurt only themself who the fuck are we to say something ,its like going to the racetrack and telling people to slow down before someone gets hurt.can you tell me you've never broke any rules? if you're scared that we may look bad to some waffo's, or that someone might get hurt then maybe you shound try bowling nobody get's hurt and everyone loves them(and i know they are strict on rules,i went bowling once and went out to do a couple shots with a friend , i forgot to change out of the goofy shoes the let me rent, HOLY FUCK i thought they were going to kill me)

[airtwardo 6]

,i went bowling once and went out to do a couple shots with a friend , i forgot to change out of the goofy shoes the let me rent, HOLY FUCK i thought they were going to kill me)

See...you CAN die from drinking and bowling!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Carrapeta 0]

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>Some of the activities in the MTV video were specifically prohibited by the FARs.

Like what?

Freeflying is "illegal" in that it violates the TSO under which the rig/reserve was certified, depending on which TSO the rig was built to. But no one pays much heed to their rigs maximum deployment speed when going head down with an AAD, because it's pretty common and causes problems only rarely.

>I'd say "Sounds like fun, but I won't be violating any FARs or BSRs as I have
>pleged not to by being a member of the USPA."

I'd say "let's go to Mexico or Australia and do it!"

Shit I'd cancel my membership for that opportunity!!
Or just keep my mouth shut!

If your gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough.

Your mom goes HandHeld

[billvon 2,410]

>Shit I'd cancel my membership for that opportunity!!
>Or just keep my mouth shut!

Or just get a BASEr, or get a waiver. It's not hard to make it legal.

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Jan,

Well put = +1,

JerryBaumchen

[linebckr83 3]

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MTV isnt making do any of that...half of those videos have ben out for a while if you actually watch all the DVD's that they sell on the nitro circus website!

Travis is a crazy fuck...cool guy though!! Hope he doesn't go in one day

The video of his (or possibly one of his) "chuteless" jump(s) is on the same episode as the big ramp-tricycle stunt too. First time I've seen the video. he downs a RedBull and says "I hope this stuff works!" and bails with only his shorts and a hip harness thingy.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[tombuch 0]

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We should follow the FAA regulations, but if for some reason a private pilot is gong to fly jumpers he should make sure every single participant understands what rating he has, and that he is violating federal law.

Tom, you have been repeating that for years. Again, there are a number of cases where private pilots can fly skydivers and it is perfectly legal.

Blue Skies,
Ed

There are very few situations in which a private pilot can fly jumpers. For example, a friend who is a private pilot can usually take a skydiving friend along, as long as he doesn't "create a hazard" under 105.5, there isn't any money being paid for the flight, and the extent of the operation is very limited. He may not "...act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation, nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft" unless the operation falls under a narrow exemption listed under §61.113.

The case we are talking about here involved a skydiving operation that claimed to be a club, but that "held out" to the public without limitation and took money from customers for the flight. It certainly qualifies as a commercial operation, as does almost every single established drop zone in the United States. The few cases where a private pilot may fly jumpers are very limited, and do not include the case we are talking about here. The pilot in this case is facing certificate action for conducting a commercial operation with only a private pilot certificate.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[SStewart 13]

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To my knowledge USPA has done nothing about that incident.

Hi Jan, not exactly the case. I did an investigation last summer and interviewed both the pilot and the TM. I also did about a two hour phone interview with the FAA official who was in charge of the investigation.
He told me that the FAA was initially not going to get invloved and let the ploice handle it as a suicide but later changed that decision after a complaint from a concerned citizen. When I asked him who the complaint came from he told me that was confidential but that it was "one of our own" (in other words a fellow skydiver)
He said it would take about 2 or 3 months to complete the investigation and then he would turn it over to their legal department for a final decision. His opinion was that a violation may have occured but that it was not likely much would come from it. I told him to contact me as soon as possible when they came to a conclusion and that USPA would wait for their investigation to be complete before we would consider any action on our part. I discussed my decision with the staff at the BOD meeting in alexandria and they agreed that was reasonable approach.
Well, that was 8 months ago and I never heard anything back from the FAA and as you know it is no longer my problem.

I will say this; during my investigation I found at least half a dozen cases where there was an incident involving jumpers and the pilot had a private license and the FAA ruled it to be legal. Of course I also found just as many under similar circumstances where they took action against the pilot so it is still not so cut and dry. The last I heard the pilot had sold his plane and was no longer flying but I can't confirm that.

Onward and Upward!

[markovwgti 0]

So is it legal to take a jumper up and let him jump out of a plane im flying if i have a private pilots license? If he does not pay me to take him up?

[hangdiver 1]

I believe the USPA has no jurisdiction over Travis Pastrana or anyone else jumping base gear from an aircraft off or on a non-USPA DZ. I believe that is the FAA,s responsibility. You don't have to be a USPA member to buy base gear and jump from an aircraft, just ask Travis. Not to say it,s pretty stupid to not tape the N# and leave the pilots name off of the credits. Les who?

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[EDYDO 0]

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So is it legal to take a jumper up and let him jump out of a plane im flying if i have a private pilots license? If he does not pay me to take him up?

I am speaking for myself only and I do not speak for any other person or organization.

This is off the subject of the thread, but yes you can.

1. Stay in class E or G airspace.
2. Get property owner or airport manager's permission to use the property for landing.
3. Notify ATC at least 1 hour before the jumps.
4. Stay in radio contact with ATC during the climb.
5. Stay away from anything that might be remotely viewed as commercial, such as a tandem jump.

Then, have fun.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add: Oh yes, if you remove the door, you need to get approval (STC) for that and it could take a week or so for most planes.

[billvon 2,410]

>1. Stay in class E or G airspace.
>2. Get property owner or airport manager's permission to use the property for landing.
>3. Notify ATC at least 1 hour before the jumps.
>4. Stay in radio contact with ATC during the climb.
>5. Stay away from anything that might be remotely viewed as commercial, such as a tandem jump.

Good list, and I would also add to avoid jumping over a congested area or an open air assembly of people (like a concert or a crowded beach.) That adds a whole 'nother layer of paperwork.

[I3uller 0]

I think a NOTAM would be a pretty important thing to add to that list as well.