I got it! (re - jumping w/a cypres)

[jumper03 0]

When I started reading these forums a few years ago, Billvon and Ron along with others advocated not jumping if you held the view - "if I don't have a cypres I'm not jumping" I remember thinking "are they nuts?" In several converstations with other jumpers we all reached the same conclusions - they must be nuts.

Well, in a few threads since then, I've come to understand their logic and I have to admit, I completely agree with them now. I guess I'm just a little slow

The epiphany (if you can call it that) came about when I realized a cypres isn't there to increase your safety level to where you will do a jump, but rather to increase your safety level above that you would have on a jump you are trained/experienced/comfortable doing.

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[jlmiracle 7]

Now will to explain it to everyone else that doesn't get it.

Good job!

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[wmw999 2,149]

Yep. Got it.

One down, a million to go
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 7]

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The epiphany (if you can call it that) came about when I realized a cypres isn't there to increase your safety level to where you will do a jump, but rather to increase your safety level above that you would have on a jump you are trained/experienced/comfortable doing.

Well, its a start

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When I started reading these forums a few years ago, Billvon and Ron along with others advocated not jumping if you held the view - "if I don't have a cypres I'm not jumping" I remember thinking "are they nuts?" In several converstations with other jumpers we all reached the same conclusions - they must be nuts.

Just so ya know....Just cause you agree now does not mean we are not nuts....You may have just joined us.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The epiphany (if you can call it that) came about when I realized a cypres isn't there to increase your safety level to where you will do a jump, but rather to increase your safety level above that you would have on a jump you are trained/experienced/comfortable doing.

That's it, now can you explain to others that think we are nuts?

Derek

[freakydiver 0]

A few hundred more Cypress threads later we CAN ACHEIVE!!!!!!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[jumpwally 0]

Whats a Cypress?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Whats a Cypress?

A type of tree;)

Seriously, tho...

I think that it is very difficult to tell someone that they shouldn't jump if they aren't comfortable doing so w/o a cypres. Personally, I went without a cypres for 150 jumps, just because I didn't feel the need to get one. Eventually I did, but more for my boyfriend than for me. Eventually, after talking with others, I realize that this is the 'cypres generation', and those who have been in a sport for a long while may not understand that just because some people refuse to jump w/o a cypres doesn't mean they shouldn't jump... it just means that they are part of the cypres generation and want to have everything possible on their side should something go wrong. Hell, if I could have a jumpsuit that would inflate to incredible size and cushion the blow should I come within 100 feet of the ground while going terminal, i'd wear it! No shame in that:)

I'm sure that there were jumpers jumping from planes at some point without reserve parachutes. I bet those people don't think that because we won't jump w/o a reserve we shouldn't be jumping at all.

-A

[tdog 0]

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it just means that they are part of the cypres generation and want to have everything possible on their side should something go wrong.

I have stayed away from this debate for a while, but you finally made me bite... Because I agree with you...

Would I drive in a car without seatbelts? Yes. Would I buy a car without seatbelts? No. When in a car with seatbelts - how often do I wear them? 100% of the time. Did I ask about airbags on my car when I purchased it? Yes. Did I feel bad when I purchased a company truck when airbags were not an option? Yes. Why not stack the cards in your favor?

I have been kicked in the head during freefall while doing some RW. Why risk it??? This is NOT an altitude awareness thing - this is a blacked out and cannot save my own ass thing. To stack all my cards in my favor – I would not own a rig without a cypres. Would I jump a friends rig without a cypres once in a while. Most likely.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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it just means that they are part of the cypres generation and want to have everything possible on their side should something go wrong.

cypres generation?

I think that`s the general attitude overseas. Fighting with fears and nightmares and urge to be safe.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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it just means that they are part of the cypres generation and want to have everything possible on their side should something go wrong.

cypres generation?

I think that`s the general attitude overseas. Fighting with fears and nightmares and urge to be safe.

Do you have an opinion about cypres'? Sounds to me like you're talking about war or some other unrelated topic.

-A

[phoenixlpr 0]

Yes, I have.

I was jumping without it. I own one and I would jump without it again.

I can find other reasons why not to jump.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Yes, I have.

I was jumping without it. I own one and I would jump without it again.

I can find other reasons why not to jump.

Guess I just don't see why you replied to my post to begin with. Do you disagree? Agree? I didn't really get your war analogy. (down with the war! btw, but that belongs in another forum)

And, fwiw, I use a cypres, too, but like I said, i've gone w/o, and if I didn't have one i'd likely still jump but i'd work to get one for sure. I think that it is important to have everything you can on your side, and I have nothing against those who won't do a jump w/o their cypres because you just never know when you might need it and that is why it's there. I don't see any reason in telling someone they shouldn't jump just because they won't jump w/o cypres. Would you jump w/o your reserve? Me, hell no! Not with my main I wouldn't. Maybe for a planned base jump with a ginormous square canopy.

You know what, tho, I drive w/o a seatbelt all the time. Guess I just haven't been in a bad accident and needed it so I don't bother. They used to make me nauseous as a kid, now I just rarely bother with it. Is that smart, hell no! Do I think those who won't drive in a car w/o a seatbelt shouldn't drive at all? Nope. I think this is the same analogy. You wear a cypres just in case. You wear a seatbelt just in case. Sure, you should practice your emergency procedures sooner, swirve to avoid a collision, should have paid more attention to begin with... and you plan to do that. But, no harm in wearing the seatbelt because you just never know.

-A

[Ron 7]

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I would not own a rig without a cypres. Would I jump a friends rig without a cypres once in a while. Most likely.

Then you clearly don't fall into this class..

See the thing is there is a group of jumpers that don't take skydiving as seriously as it is since they have an AAD. And that is an attitude that is dangerous.

People trust them, so they do dumber things with them, than they would without one.

The AAD itself is not the dangerous thing...People's attitudes and doing dumber things IS.

Imagine how safe a person would be if they had an AAD, but really acted like they didn't have one?

Thats the best case.

Not buying one and doing dumb things since you think you are "safe".

I have actually had people tell me that they are safe since they bought an AAD

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Imagine how safe a person would be if they had an AAD, but really acted like they didn't have one?

As it should be. I certainly wouldn't argue that point. But, I still respect a person's decision to always wear a cypres. They have saved lives, and it is good to have everything you can on your side.

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I have actually had people tell me that they are safer since they bought an AAD

add the 'r' and I don't think that's a terrible thing. No, they won't make you "safe", but you never know when they might make you a bit _safer_, you just never know when someone might take you out in freefall, etc. You can jump with people you trust all day long, but shit happens.

-A

[kallend 1,648]

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I would not own a rig without a cypres. Would I jump a friends rig without a cypres once in a while. Most likely.

Then you clearly don't fall into this class..

See the thing is there is a group of jumpers that don't take skydiving as seriously as it is since they have an AAD. And that is an attitude that is dangerous.

People trust them, so they do dumber things with them, than they would without one.

The AAD itself is not the dangerous thing...People's attitudes and doing dumber things IS.

Imagine how safe a person would be if they had an AAD, but really acted like they didn't have one?

Thats the best case.

Not buying one and doing dumb things since you think you are "safe".

I have actually had people tell me that they are safe since they bought an AAD

106 no/low pull fatalities in the USA in the last 15 years, 69 of them prior to 1996.

That means the dumb shit newbies with the bad attitude you describe are killing themselves less than half as fast by this method as the no-CYPRES right-stuff folks were doing 1989 - 95.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,435]

>106 no/low pull fatalities in the USA in the last 15 years, 69 of them
>prior to 1996.

And now we have dozens of cypres saves a year. Looks like people are relying more and more on the cypres to save them. Today, people die not because they forget to pull, but because their 'cypres fails.' Not all of us consider this progress.

[Ron 7]

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add the 'r' and I don't think that's a terrible thing

They are not adding the "R". They think buying a CYPRES makes them safe.

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you just never know when someone might take you out in freefall

VERY few CYPRES "Saves" were people being knocked out. Read them for yourself.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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That means the dumb shit newbies with the bad attitude you describe are killing themselves less than half as fast by this method as the no-CYPRES right-stuff folks were doing 1989 - 95.

No, it means that they are being saved by the CYPRES...Thats all.

You refuse to see that skydivers are doing more dangerous stuff since they have the ADD to "Save" them.

Could it be because that is to close an issue for you?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,648]

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That means the dumb shit newbies with the bad attitude you describe are killing themselves less than half as fast by this method as the no-CYPRES right-stuff folks were doing 1989 - 95.

No, it means that they are being saved by the CYPRES...Thats all.

You refuse to see that skydivers are doing more dangerous stuff since they have the ADD to "Save" them.

Could it be because that is to close an issue for you?

The single most important task in skydiving is saving your life.

A CYPRES doesn't magically jump into a rig all by itself. Having a CYPRES installed is a conscious decision on the part of a skydiver. Those who make this decision appear to have made a smart choice, based on the no/low pull fatality statistics over the last 15 - 20 years.

I realize that this appalls you, but dumb shits with CYPRES's appear to be better survivors than their oh-so worthy predecessors.

Equating saves with fatalities is not good accounting practice.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,435]

>I realize that this appalls you, but dumb shits with CYPRES's appear
>to be better survivors than their oh-so worthy predecessors.

Of course. And incompetent canopy pilots under PD340's are better survivors than partially trained pilots under VX104's. Doesn't mean PD340's or cypreses are good solutions to those problems.

[kallend 1,648]

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>I realize that this appalls you, but dumb shits with CYPRES's appear
>to be better survivors than their oh-so worthy predecessors.

Of course. And incompetent canopy pilots under PD340's are better survivors than partially trained pilots under VX104's. Doesn't mean PD340's or cypreses are good solutions to those problems.

If the problem is survival, the analysis of the outcomes suggests you are wrong.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,435]

>If the problem is survival, the analysis of the outcomes suggests you are wrong.

Perhaps. It is a judgement call to say that a better trained skydiving population without safety devices is better than a poorly trained skydiving population with large canopies and many safety devices, even if the fatality rates are equal between the two. Since it is now difficult to do a decent comparative study between the two, it's going to be hard to claim that we know what the fatality rates really would be in either case. (Far more has changed in skydiving than cypres usage and average canopy sizing over the past 20 years.)

[adamsr 0]

I see a cypres like ABS on a car, I will (and have) drive cars without ABS, but would prefer to drive a car that has it.

a cypres isn't a necessity, it just helps make the sport a bit safer.

[Ron 7]

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The single most important task in skydiving is saving your life.

EXACTLY!!!!!, not having your life saved by a toy.

Your new jumpers are being saved by a toy, not saving themselves.

The SAFEST skydiver is one that trains and practices. He avoids dangerous situations and THEN adds an AAD.

You seem to advocate doing more dangerous stuff since you bought a cool toy. That is not safe.

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I realize that this appalls you, but dumb shits with CYPRES's appear to be better survivors than their oh-so worthy predecessors.

Only because the toys work well. There were stupid people back then as well...Today those stupid people get saved by a CYPRES.

Im glad you foud your saftey blanket...But Its a shame you think its OK to do dumb things with them.

You can see the change now. Instead of the fatality report saying no pull..And people blaming the person....We now how people trying to blame the AAD.

Thats not progress.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334