New jumpers at your DZ

[virgin-burner 1]

i think my first season was close to 15 grand..

nobody mentions altimeters, googles, gloves, audibles, fuel (yes, the ride to the dz also costs money if you dont have one next to you), beers, food and what not..

dave's figures are very likely for the US, here, its a bit more expensive..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

Just to play devils advocate, let's use some lower numbers, and see what it takes to get paid to skydive. Let's face it, the real problem with no new jumpers is no new instrucotrs, so that's something to think about.

Let's say you can get your A license in 25 jumps, and it costs $2k.

Let's say you put together a rig on the cheap, no AAD, $2k. Let's also say that you manage to upgrade your stuff by selling the old stuff, so gear never costs you anything more.

Let's say you don't buy anything else. No suit, and you borrow a helmet, goggles, altimeter from the DZ.

Let's also say you don't go to any boogies, or travel to jump.


OK, now you're in it for $4k, and you have 25 jumps an A license, and a rig.

The best way to get started getting paid on the DZ is video. So you probably need 250 jumps min to get on staff just about anywhere. So you need 225 more jumps at $23 each = $5175.

Now you need a camera helmet, so $500 for video, $500 for stills, $500 for a helmet and mounts, and $500 for a camera suit = $2000.

Grand total to make $35 on a video jump = $11,175.

Remember, that's the bottom dollar cost.

It would take 319 paid video jumps to break even in this example (you have to double your jump numbers plus 70 to actually make $35).

If you want to be more realistic, and add in equipment upgrades, rigging, equipment maintenence, jumpsuits, etc, you're looking at about $13k to $14k.

If you skip video, and go right to tandem, that's a 500 jump min, so add 475 jumps at $23= $10925.

Add in the cost of the tandem cert course, $1500.

Grand total to make dollar one as a TM = $17,425


Wanna try AFF? That's 500 jumps min as well, so you still have to spend $10925, but some of those have to be prep dives where you pay an AFF I to play student, so figure another $1500 for that. Jumps alone = $12425

The AFF course is closer to $2k.

Total to make dollar one as AFF I = $18425

Again, all of these numbers are absurdly low. Teh TM and AFF numbers don't include the required coach course, or USPA dues, or medical checkouts (for TMs).

The whole point is that it's not a cheap sport, and the sport itself is going to suffer for it. All of today's instructors are going to get old, or married, have kids or buy houses, and have less and less time to spend at the DZ.

The interesting part is that all of the jumpers, DZOs and gear manufacturers who created this monster are going to die, retire or quit skydiving before push comes to shove, and they'll never see the shortfall.

I got into skydiving right when Point Break had put it in the spotlight, and tandems and the economy were such that business was booming. Since then I've watched jumpers come and go. Equipment and trends have come and gone, and I[m telling you, my first post is dead on.

[fanya 3]

In my first 3 months skydiving I spent...

AFF: 1500
lift tickets 8-54: 1100
gear rental: probably close to 1000
altimeter: 300
helmet: 30
my own rig: 1500 (this is the cheapest you can possibly get a rig pretty much, no AAD)
+ gas, beer, food

So thats 6k in 3 months, and actually a little more cause I bought tandems for 3 people I know. So close to 7k in 3 months. The only way this was possible was I had 4k cash on my desk burning a hole in my pocket and was working a good job at the time. I jump once a month now just to stay current cause I have no job now.

I don't know how people with family, real bills and other stuff afford to jump. At the time I started I had rent and car insurance.

I've been packing here and there and my goal is to become a TI but its gonna be a long road in just jump tickets now days.

[skybytch 259]

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Let's face it, the real problem with no new jumpers is no new instrucotrs, so that's something to think about.

Yes, that would be a problem, but it's not one we're seeing where I jump. They've got a nice crop of sub-200 jumps puppies, a solid core of jumpers with 200-500 jumps, a good sized group of regular and semi-regular more experience jumpers, enough AFF students (new and continuing) to need 3 or more instructors on a weekday, a handful of coaches who want to get AFF ratings...

How did they end up with good student and post-A license retention?

A lot of credit has to go to a 4 way team that trains there. They organize lots of skills camps and scrambles competitions that are open to pretty much anyone with an RW suit.

Some credit must go to the generally friendly and social vibe at the dz. Students are encouraged to hang out after sunset and get to know people.

But most of the credit goes to the fun jumpers, especially those between 25 - 500(ish) jumps. These are the people who always seem to be the most excited about jumping. They're always happy to talk about skydiving, even to a clueless whuffo. Even more important, without fun jumpers on the dz and on the plane, students have no example of what skydiving is really all about to get them excited about spending all that money to continue.

[davelepka 4]

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In my first 3 months skydiving I spent...

AFF: 1500
lift tickets 8-54: 1100
gear rental: probably close to 1000
altimeter: 300
helmet: 30
my own rig: 1500 (this is the cheapest you can possibly get a rig pretty much, no AAD)
+ gas, beer, food

Ok, so for those who thought my numbers were high, here's this guy-

AFF $1500

Another 15 jumps to get an A license = $400
Gear rental for 15 jumps = $250

So A license, no repeats, no video = $2150


Rig was $1500 (for a cheapo). Add an AAD and the cheapo costs $2500.

He's got $300 in an altimeter

$30 is a for cheapo helmet.

So gear total is $1850.

Cheapo gear + training with no repeats or video = $4000.

Add in an AAD ($1k), a jumpsuit ($400), a skydiving helmet ($200) and an upgraded rig ($1k on top of what he spent, and even then $2500 is a good price for a complete used rig).

New total, representative of an average jumper getting trained and set up = $6770

If you repeat a level or two, get a video of one of your AFF jumps, or if your DZ charges more than $16 to rent gear (that's the number I used) then there you have your $7k to get trained and set up with a modern rig w/ADD, jumpsuit, helmet and altimeter.

By the way fanya - no offence meant when I said your stuff was 'cheapo'. I just mean it's low priced, and that's actually how I bought all of my skydiving gear for years, prefering to spend my money on jumps.

[freeflyit 0]

Yep, I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you're saying, especially:

>>Another thing I've learned from the few years I've been at this is that everything costs more than you think it will.<<

And this is a good statement about life in general.

Just maybe want to add something as well. So if you do get to 200-250 jumps and buy a camera, etc, you not only have to be competent in that discipline but also have material that will get you hired, meaning at least 10 consequtive jumps where you've filmed a tandem successfully. These two factors easily add 100 jumps, it may even be much more...in the sence that if you have 150 hop-n-pops out of 200 jumps, you've demonstrated that you can open your parachute and that's about it.

[kallend 1,623]

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The catch 22 is that alot of affluent people don't want to sleep in tents, drink beer around campfires, and shit in a porta-potty. They want catered meals, hotel suites, and yes, flushing toilets.

Skydiving has ... the facilities of a tractor pull.

That is not true of the DZ where I jump.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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...

Some credit must go to the generally friendly and social vibe at the dz. Students are encouraged to hang out after sunset and get to know people.

But most of the credit goes to the fun jumpers, especially those between 25 - 500(ish) jumps. These are the people who always seem to be the most excited about jumping. They're always happy to talk about skydiving, even to a clueless whuffo. Even more important, without fun jumpers on the dz and on the plane, students have no example of what skydiving is really all about to get them excited about spending all that money to continue.

Hmmm...I returned to the sport fairly recently (jumped a bit in the 1980's) and essentially started again with AFF. I graduated from AFF in March and was really, really excited.

At this point--it is now August--while I still want to do this--my enthusiasm level has dropped a bit from where it was in March. The main reason is that I haven't made much progress towards my 'A' after finishing AFF. At this point I've logged more than 25 jumps in 2009 (I'm not 'counting' old jumps from years ago but I've put in enough recent jumps this year to get my 'A').

It seems difficult--at least I've found it tough--to get anyone to talk to me and sit down and discuss a plan for finishing my 'A'. I'll admit that money is a bit of a concern for me--by this I mean that I have a job, but it is kind of a 'recession job' that doesn't pay too well. But I do have SOME money and if I had a clearer plan for finishing my 'A', I'd find a way from the money side to make it happen.

Things seem very structured up until the end of AFF but after that there doesn't seem to be a clear plan for finishing. In talking with others who've finished their 'A' licenses recently; they seem to say that they didn't have to do very many official coach jumps--they would practice a number of things on solo jumps and then do one coach jump and get a bunch of stuff signed off. For that to be effective, though, there needs to be a clearer plan than I've been able to nail down.

Tracking has been a bit of a concern for me so I know that is one thing I need to work on. However there doesn't seem to be any clear plan for getting some other stuff done in parallel--eg accuracy landing and hop'n'pops--and so none of that stuff is signed off or even attempted. As noted, I'm finding it difficult to get anyone's attention for long enough to formulate a plan. For example, if I email people prior to the weekend to talk about what I should be focusing on, those emails are often ignored and not responded to.

People are friendly but seem too busy to really guide me during this phase of my skydiving career--at least that has been my perception. I realize I need to be persistent but at the same time I'm at a point where my frustration level is a bit high--I was very excited in March but was hoping to have more to show for the jumps I've done since March.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[davelepka 4]

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That is not true of the DZ where I jump.

That's your comment?

I've said it before in this thread, and I'll repeat it here, there are exceptions to every rule, but you cannot expect to grow a sport based on the exceptions.

SDC is an exception to the rule. It is, without a doubt, one of the nicest DZ in the country.

[pirana 0]

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We're not talking about the cheapest way to do things, that's another discussion. we're talking about the average costs for the average jumper looking to get into skydiving and fit it into their lives and financial picture.

I didn't even touch on specialty items like wingsuits ($500) or camera helmets ($1000+) or competition ($$$$$ who knows) or specialty coaching ($100's) or wind tunnels ($600+). Again, none of these are 'must haves', but they are things the average jumper ends up spending money on.

The thread is about new jumpers, and retaining them, right?

Why bring up wingsuits, cameras, competition? Sounds more like you are scaring them away.

I still think sound used gear and AFF graduation is easily accomplished for under $5K. (For the record, I put it all on a VISA and took 2 years to pay it off.)

Maybe your area is a bit pricier than the Midwest. Could be some influence of needing to look sharp. I noticed the comment about spending all that money and not wanting to be like a student (or something like that).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[wmw999 2,123]

People come back when they think that someone WANTs to jump with them. Nearly everyone wants to be wanted, as opposed to being merely tolerated.

So if the more experienced jumpers take the time to recognize a couple newbies and invite them on an approprately-leveled jump, or point out to them where they can get a good deal on some piece of equipment they need, or take the time to help them learn how to pack well enough that they'll actually DO it -- that's one way to get them back.

But we all have to contribute to that. It doesn't mean that you have to do it all the time, or every time. We seem to keep a pretty consistent crop of up-and-comers at Spaceland, too. But during the worst part of team training season the pickings can be pretty slim if you're a belly flyer showing up for a fun day of jumping.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wormly81 0]

There just arent enough students who:

1. Have inadequancy issues that drove them towards lucrative careers and helped develop an extreme type A personality

2. Have social dysfunctions that allow them to completely disassociate with their friends and family to pursue a whole new lifestyle at the dropzone.

3. Have historic substance abuse issues and have recognized adrenaline to be a workable substitute.

One of the previously aformentioned students is worth 20 of your normal, well adjusted variety.

[GaVak 0]

I think it takes being hooked by the sport, or some other reason to be self motivated to pursue proficiency. Most of the instructors at my DZ are busy being sent up every load in one capacity or another. This means outside of the focus of the jump practice and prep or the snatches of conversation over a cigarette, they don’t have time to grab the pom-poms and cheer for someone to make it through AFF7. There is actually a lot MORE that from peers: other AFF students, pre-A License students, etc. Without other inexperienced jumpers around, it’s easy for a student to be caught in the jaded environment that is home of the experienced (working) jumper.

Also: this sport calls for a driven, self motivated person and I believe it is that personality type that is on these decline these days.

~Gav

Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.

D.S.#21

[billvon 2,400]

>But we all have to contribute to that.

Agreed! And I would add that new jumpers have to put in the effort as well.

There are two newer jumpers on our DZ. One jumped with the free low-timer organizers and learned a little about RW. She rented gear, and is looking for her own rig, but doesn't always like doing the free-organizer jumps because they're not always that successful. So she kind of hangs around looking for people to jump with. She's always asking the 4-way competitors, video people etc if they want to jump, but often they are training for 4-way or doing video. So she ends up not jumping as much.

The other jumped with the free organizers for a while and also outgrew them. So she talked to some other newer jumpers and went to a Fury free-coaching weekend. They helped her find a fourth and they started jumping together. It took a lot of work to find the other three people, work out a very basic schedule, find coaching, find a video guy etc but she did it, and is now jumping a lot and learning how to do 4-way.

I think most DZ's have people who are willing to jump with new jumpers. They may not be the best jumpers on the DZ, but they're willing to help people get in the air and learn the basics. At some point, though, the new jumper has to take the initiative and seek out coaching, jump partners, and video people. They're there and available at most DZ's, but they don't just "come to those who wait" - they have to be found.

[davelepka 4]

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I still think sound used gear and AFF graduation is easily accomplished for under $5K

Well, a guy chimed in upthread, and he was for just over $2k to get an A license. Again, you can get gear for under 3k, but I don't think that what most people want.

The thread is about why can't we retain new jumpers, and my assertion is that the monetary aspect is a big part of it. I know that there are ways to do anything on the cheap, however, this is a materialistic society in the US, and when you bring that mindset to the DZ, it costs a certain amount of money to keep up with the Joneses.

I'm not in that camp myself. I spent as little money on gear as possible, all for the sake of having more money to jump with. I had ratty used stuff, and I borrowed whatever I could. At the time, I was 18, and willing to do whatever it took to get in the sky. I was tyring to get myself paid to jump, because otherwise I couldn't aford it.

Now if you take a slightly older person, the type who has the disposable income to afford to jump, they're going to have a different viewpoint.

My point is this, even for a jumper to get outfitted with reasonbly new used gear, an AAD, helmet jumpsuit, etc, it going to cost $5K. That's a steep price of entry, and that's not for a new, or top of the line rig.

So what I'm saying is that for John Q Public to show up, and get an A licesne, and the equivilant of 'middle class' equipment is $7K, and all that gets you ready to start paying for jumps.

Those prices are not related to my area. I also live in the midwest, Ohio. The costs add up, it's just the way it is.

[redramdriver 0]

I didn't take the time to read each and every response, so take away my birthday. The 182 dz is such a great place to learn, and feel comfortable jumping, and your not lost in the numbers. Lets just face it, like we haven't beat this to death so many times. DZ's with big planes to fill, any DZ for that matter, has lost touch with it's A's through D's that aren't part of their staff, period! The amount of licensed jumpers that just don't come back to jump is hugh. Some just get tired of waiting hour after hour to get on a load, only to be bumped for a student, a tandem, a video slot, etc. Or have their 4 way down to a 3 way then a 2 way. Ya'll get the drift??? Who the hell wants to go to a dz and spend all day waiting for a load. I have better things to do then sit there all day waiting to get some sky. And the new guy,,, forrrrgeetaboout it. The DZ has allready got your money, and they are just waiitng for you to buy the gear they will get for you at 25% or so higher then the next guy. So stop yer whinning...and asking everyone else why nobody has the time for you. The answer is simple...the DZ's got your money...now run home.

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[dks13827 3]

very interesting discussion......... just FYI, years ago since you could start with surplus gear, cheap, then buy a good main later ( PC for 350), boots for $40, jumpsuit for 100, helmet for 25, and Cessna jumps for $4 to $5. FJC might cost $30. A biggie now is the basically custom harness and container.. hard to get around that cost. Surplus harness and container was darn near free.

[SKYgoonie 0]

As a low timer im not going to agree or disagree with the numbers being said on here about jumping but, Being in my mid 20's and no college degree I never made much money did my AFF and my coaches and plenty more after that. As I made friends we all find it fun to travle around and try out new DZ. to date I only bought a helmet, and goggles, alti, and audiable like 500 bucks.

My problem is the more I jump the more I WANT to jump so I spend all my money jumping rental gear and never buying my own.

Ive recently lost my job about 4 months ago and still spend half my unemployment to go jumping every month.

Now am i doing the right thing? Most say no and few say "do what you love". The best advice I ever got was before I got my A and was waiting with the DZO for my check dive he told me "aply for a credit card max it out buy all your gear and worrie about paying it off later" fortunatly i never had enough credit to do that.

i only pretend to know what im doing
D.S.#619

[ScottyE 0]

I'm lucky My DZ now is Skydive City. T.K. runs the DZ and everybody I've met there seems to be very friendly. Mike Wolfe is one of the load organizers there and seems to have no problem helping newer jumpers get on four way and six way RW jumps.

Even when I was jumping at Lake wales there were plenty of people (experenced and newbie's) willing to jump with me after I got my A liscense

And yes its expensive built a good rig for 2500 (Racers can be found cheap) slapped a barely used Pilot 210 in it raven 3 reserve .

Bought a bonehead Mamba, a protrack and a hand mount altimeter I dont have an AAD but thats a personal choice more than a financial choice.

I started My AFF course in 1995 got to level 6 and then stopped because I couldnt afford it started back in Pittsfield Maine in 2000, (Static line) did some more jumps then stopped again same reason finances werent there.

But now I'm back in it again got my A and working towards My B I think if a person really wants to jump they will find a way !

[fanya 3]

Quote

Quote

In my first 3 months skydiving I spent...

AFF: 1500
lift tickets 8-54: 1100
gear rental: probably close to 1000
altimeter: 300
helmet: 30
my own rig: 1500 (this is the cheapest you can possibly get a rig pretty much, no AAD)
+ gas, beer, food

Ok, so for those who thought my numbers were high, here's this guy-

AFF $1500

Another 15 jumps to get an A license = $400
Gear rental for 15 jumps = $250

So A license, no repeats, no video = $2150


Rig was $1500 (for a cheapo). Add an AAD and the cheapo costs $2500.

He's got $300 in an altimeter

$30 is a for cheapo helmet.

So gear total is $1850.

Cheapo gear + training with no repeats or video = $4000.

Add in an AAD ($1k), a jumpsuit ($400), a skydiving helmet ($200) and an upgraded rig ($1k on top of what he spent, and even then $2500 is a good price for a complete used rig).

New total, representative of an average jumper getting trained and set up = $6770

If you repeat a level or two, get a video of one of your AFF jumps, or if your DZ charges more than $16 to rent gear (that's the number I used) then there you have your $7k to get trained and set up with a modern rig w/ADD, jumpsuit, helmet and altimeter.

By the way fanya - no offence meant when I said your stuff was 'cheapo'. I just mean it's low priced, and that's actually how I bought all of my skydiving gear for years, prefering to spend my money on jumps.

No offense, trust me I know my stuff is as "cheap" as you can get for shit that will save your life. I'm jumping a Sabre1 and a rig that is a c16 size when I should be jumping a c18-c19 but I needed a rig right right now because I lucked out and got a job over the winter packing chutes where I got free jumps but had to have my own rig, is it ideal; no, but is any rig you get for 1500 ideal, no.

The aff I did repeat one level but from what I'm told pretty much everyone repeats one level. I did no coach jumps because: 1, coach jumps weren't required and 2. I got lucky and my dive and docks were done by people that were coach/tandem/dzo licensed but did it for fun. At the point I finished my A license I had 40 jumps and had been a the DZ 4-6 days out of the week when I was working 30+ hours at a "real" job a week.

I love jumping, I really do, more than I can really convey to anyone, but atm I gave up a full time summer packing job to peruse a relationship. She supports what I'm trying to do and my jumping but the DZ I was committed to didn't allow dogs so I decided to peruse her instead of something for myself for once in my life. Everything is a compromise.

It's like a above poster said, for a new person to commit to jumping you either have to have a good job and an established life or totally commit to a DZ life style to make it.

[fanya 3]

I don't like editing, so one last thing...

I got by as cheap as I could, I repeat on AFF, no coach jumps, no AAD, a DZ that was semi supportive of my jumping efforts but at the same time it was because I was showing up 3-6 days a week and I became a familiar face. And that was forcing myself upon them.

My biggest problem now is I have no home DZ, can't find a job and can barely afford to stay current. I want to get my TI license but that is a ways off considering I've been skydiving for a year and I don't have a DZ to support me because atm I'm moving every 6 months to be with my GF.

My opinion when I started skydiving was it is a really open sport, as I get more in depth into it I'm realizing its a really tight sport that's hard to break into.

[popsjumper 2]

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very interesting discussion......... just FYI, years ago since you could start with surplus gear, cheap, then buy a good main later ( PC for 350), boots for $40, jumpsuit for 100, helmet for 25, and Cessna jumps for $4 to $5. FJC might cost $30. A biggie now is the basically custom harness and container.. hard to get around that cost. Surplus harness and container was darn near free.

Prices you mention are about right...but...consider that $25 helmet, for example....I could buy a whole cart-load of groceries for that $25 back then.

For that cart-load of groceries today, I could get a decent helmet.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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For that cart-load of groceries today, I could get a decent helmet.

That may be true as well, but it doesn't change the fact that the costs in skydiving (and grocery stores) have outpaced inflation and increases in pay.

Given that fact, it should be no surprise that there is a reduction in new jumpers entering the sport. People are having enough trouble paying for groceries, let alone a hobby like sky jumping.

[unclekenny01 0]

Every DZ is a bit differnt . The student want to be part of "the group" . They want to learn , meet new freinds , have fun and be safe . Remember yourself when you started . And remember the 3 part of a skydive .
1-freefall
2-canopy
3- campfire
And if they do that they will have fun , thats why they skydive, to have fun.

[virgin-burner 1]

WORD!!!!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda