Maxx 1 #51 May 17, 2005 Hi Bill, Thank you for your description! This is basically what I was already doing instinctivly, but I never thought about it.. Thanks again, Max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #52 May 17, 2005 QuoteWhile EPs are a little off topic, I can think of one incident within the last month where an licensed jumper forgot her EPs. I was referencing EPs to show a point. The point that many times instructors don't stress continuing the training for PLFs as they would with EPs, both of them are important; however, I personally believe forcing a student to do a PLF on a jump when it may not be necissary proves nothing and really teaches nothing to a student (unless they needed to do one).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #53 May 18, 2005 PLF's have kept me out of the hospital. Wait 'til you've seen a few more things before you discount the PLF too much. If you jump long enough, it will be your friend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #54 May 18, 2005 I havent had a PLF landing.....yet but I do like practicing them on the ground, I include it with every dirt dive, and yes I am a dork, while watching CSI I dirt dive through my AFF course and Ive plfed off my couch a few times, I am assuming this is like a cutaway, not needed often but when it is , you want to get it right and since I cant cutaway while watching TV ...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #55 May 18, 2005 I wonder what the people downstairs think when you PLF off the couch. It's good to hear you're practicing. I tell my students to not be too self concious while they are practicing a lot of dorky stuff on the ground. It's how every skydiver started out. With all the practice you're giving it, it should be automatic when you need it. All my PLF's and cutaways are like that. Don't even have to think about it. Dorky is getting hurt when it could have been avoided. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #56 May 18, 2005 QuoteI tell my students to not be too self concious while they are practicing a lot of dorky stuff on the ground. lol - off the thread, but i inadvertantly whacked my husband practicing throw-outs at home Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #57 May 18, 2005 lucky for all around I live on the first floor. If it werent so fun Id still do it, but I have such a great imagination I would swear I could feel the wind in my face...off topic again, Ive found I also now put my left arm out the car window and go into my jump thoughts, sighhhhhh is it memorial day weekend yet?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #58 May 19, 2005 I completely agree that PLF's should be taught more than they are. In my FJC, we were not even told about PLF's, let alone practiced them. I only knew the term because I read it in a book. Throughout my early AFP jumps, it was never mentioned. Then on jump #10, I found myself coming in downwind on a high wind day. I was tired and scared, coming in like a bat out of hell, and didn't know what to do. I didn't put my feet and knees together (cuz no one ever told me to do that). But I knew I didn't want to land on my butt, either. So I came in with my legs apart, and went face-first into the ground, but not before twisting my leg around and tearing my MCL. That sucked. And it took me out for the season. PLEASE, PLEASE!! ALL NEW STUDENTS -- LEARN TO PLF!! IT WILL HELP KEEP YOU FROM GETTING INJURED!! Now every jump I do, I come in with my feet and knees together, and prepare to either PLF (if I'm coming down vertically) or slide on my hip (if I have forward speed). I still need to practice my PLF's more so that it will be completely automatic when I need it again. (And I'm sure I will.) Just my experience."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #59 May 19, 2005 QuotePLEASE, PLEASE!! ALL NEW STUDENTS -- LEARN TO PLF!! IT WILL HELP KEEP YOU FROM GETTING INJURED!! Minor edit - "Please, please!! All instructors - TEACH PLF'S!! It will help keep your students from getting injured!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #60 May 19, 2005 QuoteQuotePLEASE, PLEASE!! ALL NEW STUDENTS -- LEARN TO PLF!! IT WILL HELP KEEP YOU FROM GETTING INJURED!! Minor edit - "Please, please!! All instructors - TEACH PLF'S!! It will help keep your students from getting injured!" Yes, much better!!"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mailin 0 #61 May 19, 2005 I didn't learn PLFs in my FJC either - thought it was strange cause I had spent so much time going over it the year before in another FJC I had taken. Even Scott Miller goes over it in his canopy course... I don't prepare for PLFs very well when coming in to land... I suppose I should re-evaluate that huh? JenArianna Frances Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #62 May 19, 2005 Quote I don't prepare for PLFs very well when coming in to land... I suppose I should re-evaluate that huh? Big time, I learned this lesson the hard way while I was taking canopy instruction(with my instructor telling me specifically to work on this). If you're on your last 20 feet of descent and wind sheer stops your canopy from generating lift (possibly causing a partial collapse) the only thing you have left is your PLF and you probably have less than a second to execute, even less than that by the time you figure out that your usual flare generates no additional lift. If you're not in a ready position you're really leaving yourself at a dangerous disadvantage, and that's just one scenario. It's not that uncommon either, I've read several similar reports, some way worse than my experience, wind shear on final even if you're straight in and in the clear can drop you fast with no warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,130 #63 May 19, 2005 If you come in mentally and physically prepared to do a PLF it's very easy to go ahead and stand up. You had an extra success. The change in body position isn't huge, either. If you come in mentally and physically prepared to stand up, then you failed if you fell down. Either way you're changing your mind. Preparing for a PLF is not preparing for failure. It's preparing for a landing that you can walk away from. If you prepare for a PLF and get to stand up (which I generally do), then you still have success. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 2fat2fly 0 #64 May 20, 2005 QuotePLF's are fundamental survival skills... there is no excuse for NOT knowing how to do them... Great point. I have never hurt myself PLFing when I "might" could have saved a stand up landing. I "Have" caused myself pain by not PLFing when I should haveI am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #65 May 22, 2005 Imagine falling on a ski slope with skis unreleased. Picture the position you want to be in - feet facing down the hill sliding on the sides of your boots and your thigh. That's the position you want to slide in. Thanks Bill and Lisa. I once got up and walked away from a collapsed 5 cell canopy long ago after making a really sincere PLF. And my only serious injury was from being stupid when I shoulda PLF'ed. But the problem I've had on modern canopies is the way the traditional PLF tends to throw you over forward, it's nasty. On so many "hot" landings rate of descent isn't really a problem, it's the excessive forward speed. So when I've been able to see a good flat surface, I have been sliding in on my butt and quite comfortably. But that doesn't negate the risk of tailbone or spinal injury either, so your side slide and comparing it to a downhill skier's slide is very helpful. Sort of like "stealing 3rd base", no ? Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #54 May 18, 2005 I havent had a PLF landing.....yet but I do like practicing them on the ground, I include it with every dirt dive, and yes I am a dork, while watching CSI I dirt dive through my AFF course and Ive plfed off my couch a few times, I am assuming this is like a cutaway, not needed often but when it is , you want to get it right and since I cant cutaway while watching TV ...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #55 May 18, 2005 I wonder what the people downstairs think when you PLF off the couch. It's good to hear you're practicing. I tell my students to not be too self concious while they are practicing a lot of dorky stuff on the ground. It's how every skydiver started out. With all the practice you're giving it, it should be automatic when you need it. All my PLF's and cutaways are like that. Don't even have to think about it. Dorky is getting hurt when it could have been avoided. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #56 May 18, 2005 QuoteI tell my students to not be too self concious while they are practicing a lot of dorky stuff on the ground. lol - off the thread, but i inadvertantly whacked my husband practicing throw-outs at home Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #57 May 18, 2005 lucky for all around I live on the first floor. If it werent so fun Id still do it, but I have such a great imagination I would swear I could feel the wind in my face...off topic again, Ive found I also now put my left arm out the car window and go into my jump thoughts, sighhhhhh is it memorial day weekend yet?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #58 May 19, 2005 I completely agree that PLF's should be taught more than they are. In my FJC, we were not even told about PLF's, let alone practiced them. I only knew the term because I read it in a book. Throughout my early AFP jumps, it was never mentioned. Then on jump #10, I found myself coming in downwind on a high wind day. I was tired and scared, coming in like a bat out of hell, and didn't know what to do. I didn't put my feet and knees together (cuz no one ever told me to do that). But I knew I didn't want to land on my butt, either. So I came in with my legs apart, and went face-first into the ground, but not before twisting my leg around and tearing my MCL. That sucked. And it took me out for the season. PLEASE, PLEASE!! ALL NEW STUDENTS -- LEARN TO PLF!! IT WILL HELP KEEP YOU FROM GETTING INJURED!! Now every jump I do, I come in with my feet and knees together, and prepare to either PLF (if I'm coming down vertically) or slide on my hip (if I have forward speed). I still need to practice my PLF's more so that it will be completely automatic when I need it again. (And I'm sure I will.) Just my experience."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #59 May 19, 2005 QuotePLEASE, PLEASE!! ALL NEW STUDENTS -- LEARN TO PLF!! IT WILL HELP KEEP YOU FROM GETTING INJURED!! Minor edit - "Please, please!! All instructors - TEACH PLF'S!! It will help keep your students from getting injured!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #60 May 19, 2005 QuoteQuotePLEASE, PLEASE!! ALL NEW STUDENTS -- LEARN TO PLF!! IT WILL HELP KEEP YOU FROM GETTING INJURED!! Minor edit - "Please, please!! All instructors - TEACH PLF'S!! It will help keep your students from getting injured!" Yes, much better!!"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mailin 0 #61 May 19, 2005 I didn't learn PLFs in my FJC either - thought it was strange cause I had spent so much time going over it the year before in another FJC I had taken. Even Scott Miller goes over it in his canopy course... I don't prepare for PLFs very well when coming in to land... I suppose I should re-evaluate that huh? JenArianna Frances Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #62 May 19, 2005 Quote I don't prepare for PLFs very well when coming in to land... I suppose I should re-evaluate that huh? Big time, I learned this lesson the hard way while I was taking canopy instruction(with my instructor telling me specifically to work on this). If you're on your last 20 feet of descent and wind sheer stops your canopy from generating lift (possibly causing a partial collapse) the only thing you have left is your PLF and you probably have less than a second to execute, even less than that by the time you figure out that your usual flare generates no additional lift. If you're not in a ready position you're really leaving yourself at a dangerous disadvantage, and that's just one scenario. It's not that uncommon either, I've read several similar reports, some way worse than my experience, wind shear on final even if you're straight in and in the clear can drop you fast with no warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,130 #63 May 19, 2005 If you come in mentally and physically prepared to do a PLF it's very easy to go ahead and stand up. You had an extra success. The change in body position isn't huge, either. If you come in mentally and physically prepared to stand up, then you failed if you fell down. Either way you're changing your mind. Preparing for a PLF is not preparing for failure. It's preparing for a landing that you can walk away from. If you prepare for a PLF and get to stand up (which I generally do), then you still have success. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2fat2fly 0 #64 May 20, 2005 QuotePLF's are fundamental survival skills... there is no excuse for NOT knowing how to do them... Great point. I have never hurt myself PLFing when I "might" could have saved a stand up landing. I "Have" caused myself pain by not PLFing when I should haveI am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #65 May 22, 2005 Imagine falling on a ski slope with skis unreleased. Picture the position you want to be in - feet facing down the hill sliding on the sides of your boots and your thigh. That's the position you want to slide in. Thanks Bill and Lisa. I once got up and walked away from a collapsed 5 cell canopy long ago after making a really sincere PLF. And my only serious injury was from being stupid when I shoulda PLF'ed. But the problem I've had on modern canopies is the way the traditional PLF tends to throw you over forward, it's nasty. On so many "hot" landings rate of descent isn't really a problem, it's the excessive forward speed. So when I've been able to see a good flat surface, I have been sliding in on my butt and quite comfortably. But that doesn't negate the risk of tailbone or spinal injury either, so your side slide and comparing it to a downhill skier's slide is very helpful. Sort of like "stealing 3rd base", no ? Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Don.Key 0 #66 May 22, 2005 QuoteWell, as most people on here will tell you, I can get get pretty wound up about this subject more than just about anything else. 1. You'll use PLF/R's a LOT more in your skydiving career than you will EP's yet PLF's are the most under-taught subject to students. You come to my FJC class and I will make you beg for mercy before it's over. No puss pads or golf clap for doing one or two... I am going to wear you out. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=639628;search_string=plf%20front%20front;#639628 If you're really into abuse, take the parachute packing class. Just wondering: Did you ever had someone break bones during this training? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #67 May 23, 2005 Add me to the list of PLF fans. Avoided injury with a PLF yesterday when some nasty turbulence dropped me from about 20 feet. I don't know if I just got lucky or if training took over, but I know it all happened too fast for me to even think about a PLF. I slammed into the ground, rolled over my side onto my back, and thought "hey, that was a PLF! how'd I do that??" Got up totally uninjured. My legs are still a little sore, but unhurt. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,062 #68 May 23, 2005 QuoteJust wondering: Did you ever had someone break bones during this training? No.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #69 May 23, 2005 QuoteJust wondering: Did you ever had someone break bones during this training? Yes. Not my class, but my old DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #70 May 23, 2005 oh a Manta? They can go plenty fast in a 15kts downwind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #71 May 24, 2005 I had a wake-up call about PLFs last weekend that made me realize how much I can learn from the people I jump with and how much I appreciate their experience... I was with a group that was first out on the first load and we ended up a little too far out on our spot. When I realized I wasn't going to make it back I glanced around to see where the other people in my group were landing. 2 of the other 3 had picked a grassy field nearby so I decided to setup to join them. As I landed near the most experienced jumper in the group I could hear him yelling to me to put my feet and knees together and PLF. I honestly thought he was joking. I had picked a clear spot upwind and everything was good as far as I could tell. I landed on my toes and walked over to him so that we could walk back to the DZ together and he chided me for not PLFing. When I told him that I thought he was joking around he pointed out that we had landed in tall grass without any idea what the surface underneath was like and that a PLF might have saved me from a nasty accident if the ground hadn't been level. I got a little dry in the mouth thinking that over. Anyway... I learned that PLFs are not always a skill you need when you flare high or land badly.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 307 #72 June 5, 2005 Quote You come to my FJC class and I will make you beg for mercy before it's over. No puss pads or golf clap for doing one or two... I am going to wear you out. repeat after me and as you say them, touch them. balls of the feet....calf....thigh......buttock......pull-up muscle..... i had a blackhat tie my boots together on the wire and they dropped me for an hour and a half off the slt at benning. i was bleeding from my ears, eyes, nose, lips, chin and neck. but i will never forget how to plf, ever. i have stood up 42 out of 43 student jumps (the other one went down to a knee on a downwind landing i was practicing), and stood up an mc1 and an sf-10 a couple of times. but if i ever need to do a plf for real, i can without thinking._________________________________________ Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,062 #73 June 5, 2005 Same here, Brother. Same here. Hooah.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayCam 0 #74 June 11, 2005 My instructor skipped over teaching us to PFL saying "we would figure it out if we needed it". He was great in every other way but I wish he hadnt skipped that part as a PLF last week would have saved me a whole lot of pain and money (cant go into work as I cant bend), plus now I am not going to be able to jump for a little while. I am going to teach myself to PLF now. I think its a good thing to know! J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,062 #75 June 11, 2005 QuoteMy instructor skipped over teaching us to PFL saying "we would figure it out if we needed it". IMO - unprofessional. You shouldn't have to teach yourself how to PLF. While I'm not sure of the training curriculum in the UK, I might suggest you request a copy of (or download) the BPA's recommended training guidelines for first jump students, then take it to the Senior Instructor and/or DZO, or BPA Safety & Training Advisor (S&TA) equivalent and ask them that you receive the requisite training. Learning PLF's well is something that is best learned using demonstration, by the numbers, emulating the instructor, getting corrective training and then practicing until proficient.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
