Water jump - is cutting away right?

[phoenixlpr 0]

Hi,

I had a water in last Saturday. I've used a MTC-2 (F111, ~320sqft). Wind was about 3m/s. I had no flotation device, I've used a wet suit. I've jumped into a lake approx. 500m from the shore. It's a (ex)military rig with some kind of snaps and a kind of belt too. After opening I've opened the belt and the chest strap. I've "landed" into the wind and flared too. The main has drop behind me.It took about 3 seconds to open the leg straps and max. 10 sec. to leave the harness. 2-3 cells of the main remained inflated and pulling slowly backwards. In general the gear was floating. My crew has reached me in half a minute with a boat.

What is the advantage of cutting away before hitting the water?

[airtwardo 6]

What is the advantage of cutting away before hitting the water?


***


Isn't one...you could get injured doing so.

Ride it in 'till your wet.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Kris 0]

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Isn't one...you could get injured doing so.

Ride it in 'till your wet.

Bingo. People have killed and seriously injured themselves cutting away over water. Judging height over water is incredibly hard to do. You may think you're less than 20 feet up, when you may really be over 80 feet.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[nael 0]

I've never jumped anywhere where a water landing was a big issue, but I've been told to loosen the leg straps prior to impact with water so that you can get out of them easier. Should you undo the chest strap too? Maybe that would be more dangerous than helpful, I don't know...?

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[Zep 0]

If you are going to land in water weather it be planned or by accident,

loosen legstraps, undo chest strap and cutaway when your feet touch the water and NOT before.
As you start to come up you will be able to swin out of the container with relative ease,
Swim away from the canopy to avoid the risk of getting tangled in the lines

Wear a flotation device

And remember your gear can be replaced, YOU can't

Gone fishing

[phoenixlpr 0]

Yeah, thanks. I've read that everywhere.

Why is it recommended to cut away?

I love those snap on the military gear. It can be opened in 2 seconds.

[tombuch 0]

Others have already said that you should not cutaway before landing in the water. That's so important that I'll repeat it in bold: Never cutaway before landing in the water!

Cutting away AFTER landing in water my be an option if you land in a fast moving current and your parachute is dragging you down, but that is very rare. The best bet is to loosen your leg straps and chest strap before hitting the water (some people undo their chest strap). Unless it's a tiny pond I like to enter at half breaks because it is so hard to judge the flare point. Keep your feet and knees together and plan for a PLF because the water may be shallow, or there may be rocks just below the surface. As soon as you are in the water undo the chest strap (if not already opened), and then swim out of the gear.

It sounds like you handled the water landing well, and you found out that your equipment will tend to float a bit. That's especially true of the packed reserve. The great advantage of that is that the gear will help you float for a minute or two, so there is no need to panic, and plenty of time to get yourself out of the gear.

It is important to get yourself free of the gear quickly. Eventually it will loose buoyancy and sink, and the lines could snag your legs. That's especially true in a river with a current. If rescue will be fast, you may choose to get free but to hold onto the harness. If rescue will take more than a few minutes then abandon your gear immediately...your life is worth far more than a rig.

I'd also suggest getting rid of any weight belt quickly, and if rescue will be delayed you should consider removing your heavy jumpsuit and shoes/boots.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks.

It was a planned water jump. I had a wet diver suit as a floating device, no shoes at all.

[Ron 7]

If you are going to land in water:

1. First DON'T. If you must then get as close to shore, or a boat as possible. Land in the FRONT of a boat, unless they have a skier people don't look back much.

2. Ditch weight, helmet, gloves...ect...GET RID OF THEM.

3. Take off your chest strap, and loosen your leg straps.

4. If there is a visible current, land INTO it. It is much easier to ditch the harness by swimming up stream and you will roll out of the harness. If you are being drug face down you will have to roll forward out of the harness.

5. Flare for the top of the water, if you can't tell where the top is go to half brakes.

6. Prepare to PLF as soon as your feet hit.

7. Take a deep breath.

8. When you hit the water sweep your arms back like a track, and swim UP stream with your legs. The harness will slide off.

9. Screw the gear...It will float for a few mins, but with all the lines and the fact that once it starts to sink it will drag you down...GET AWAY FROM IT! If the canopy lands on top of you, Go to the surface and take a breath. Find a seam and follow it to the edge of the canopy.

10. Jumpsuits are good. Guess what? They hold air. You can bring the neck up to your mouth and inflate them....This works with cotton suits as well once they get wet. I have stayed afloat an hour with a cotton long sleeve shirt with this trick.

11. Hope someone likes you and will look for you

Instructors...Am I missing something?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zep 0]

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Yeah, thanks. I've read that everywhere.

Why is it recommended to cut away?

So that when you surface you don't come up under the canopy, cutting away the canopy will normally carry it
a few meters from where you enter the water,
of course their are exeptions, A fast flowing river, or strong surface currents in the sea.

Gone fishing

[riggerrob 558]

Cutting away above the water is likely to shorten your skydiving career, just like what happened to the Commanding Officer of the Canadian Army Parachute School, last summer - cruel joke!!!

Definitely undo your chest strap and pull the ends of your leg straps out of the elastic keepers.

But I am wondering if we should re-think the whole concept of loosening leg straps while jumping twitchy, tiny canopies. Remember that current procedures were written when round canopies and solid saddles were in fashion. If you were careful (i.e. slid your butt far back) you could completely disconnect leg straps and still sit in your solid saddle.
The last solid-saddle sport harnesses were sewn in the 1970s.
Nowadays, loosening leg straps would radically change toggle position during flare and if you loosened leg straps unevenly, could produce major turn problems.
Let's hear opinions from other senior jumpers who have done multiple water jumps.
I have only done 2 water jumps and that was back in the 1980s.

[tombuch 0]

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But I am wondering if we should re-think the whole concept of loosening leg straps while jumping twitchy, tiny canopies. Remember that current procedures were written when round canopies and solid saddles were in fashion.

I agree. Loosing legstraps of tiny high performance parachutes is a bad idea. For larger parachutes it is still fine.

I jump an original Sabre 120 at a wingloading of about 1.6. My leg straps do make a difference in the way the parachute opens and flys, but ultimately the difference is pretty minor. I have no problems flying with loose leg straps even if they are uneven.

Water training is generally given to people with 25-100 jumps who are on relatively big stable parachutes. I think the standard of loosening leg straps is still very valid, but a caution should be offered about flight performance at higher wing loadings. It is sort of like the RSL, AAD, and one handed vs two handed cutaway issues. There is a specific way this material should be taught to novices, and there are different considerations when we progress. A good program will offer a specific solution for the jumpers current status and also touch on considerations for later.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[airtwardo 6]

Let's hear opinions from other senior jumpers who have done multiple water jumps.


***

~I've done a bunch of intentional water jumps...so far none "un".


The only thing I have to say...and it's only my opnion...
Don't worry about the cut away handle at all. If one were to be concentrating on that, it might get inadvertently pulled.

I 've done enough water jumps to know the depth perception thing is real...

It's VERY hard to tell just how high you are above the surface, and I have found myself 'reaching' for it while still high enough to get slammed had I opted to cut away.

I don't touch the leg straps for the reasons listed...all my rigs have QE or B12 snaps anyway
but I do undo the chest strap and fold it back on itself using the elastic keeper....and undo the helmet strap...remember you can use a lot of helmets for floation.

I always try to face into the wind for splash down, and I use 3/4 to 9/10ths of the brakes when entering the water...the slower the canopy is going the better chance the wind will push it behind you, even a very light breeze.

As stated, once you're in the water bring your arms back and the gear will just 'fall' off your upper body.



As an added note...and again all mine have been intentional so I've always had floation gear with me...but if it looks like I may be in the water for a while, I swim WAY around the canopy, staying clear of the lines...and grab onto the deployment handle of the pilot chute...and start back stroking to shore.

Gives you a better chance of 'keeping' your gear, and if you need to, you just drop the pud and your clear of it. But if you're in fast moving water or having any other porblems...screw the gear!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[darkwing 4]

I agree with most of what has been said, but I want to address the issue of leg straps. I have only two real water landings, both a long time ago. As mentioned above, loosening the leg straps is a hold over from the old days with different canopies and harnesses. With modern canopies and harnesses I would merely clear the free end of each leg strap, so make it more accessible after I hit the water. In other words, I would make sure the free end of each leg strap was pulled out of the leg pad covers, and/or from under the elastic keepers. I believe that anything more is asking for trouble.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[kelpdiver 2]

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2. Ditch weight, helmet, gloves...ect...GET RID OF THEM.

Why ditch the helmet? Doesn't it have value if you hit the water hard? Entanglement concern?

[Ron 7]

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Why ditch the helmet? Doesn't it have value if you hit the water hard? Entanglement concern?

In a word....Panic. You might not with all your SCUBA training, but most people will freakout when they end up under water.

The helmet ,while yes it could protect you from an impact injury, is weight (even more so when the liner absorbs water). And if you flare to at least half brakes and are prepared to PLF I don't see to much impact risk in a water landing where a helmet would help.....I could be wrong, but I would say the odds favor not needing it.

In a panic, I bet few will be able to maintain calm enough to remove the helmet once they are in the water. They will be quite busy trying to get out of the gear. And yes it could snag a line or fill with water (If its a full face).

With half shell designs you could just unsnap it. But I'd ditch everything I didn't need.

Might be a good test for someone to try...Take a factory diver to the next pool training and see if people can remove it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zep 0]

I'm going to agree with leg staps an pocket rockets, as I can see that uneven body inputs can make the flight erratic

I'm going to disagree with not cuttingaway as years ago we lost some to the sea because they did'nt cutaway
The ones who survived had cutaway,

Gone fishing

[petetheladd 0]

Cutting away too high can cause you to be knocked out from impact with the water.

You rig being somewhat bouyant will keep your unconscious body face down in the water(I've seen it happen) .... and you drown, if someone does'nt get to you quickly and tow you out.

So in summary lots of disadvantages to cutting away before your feet get wet.

PtL

No, Not without incident

[Amazon 7]

I have a few water jumps... and at the USAF Sea Survival School , it was standard practice..land into the wind... prepare for a plf if the water is not very deep and upon feet wet cut away the main.
All of the students going thru the USAF Sea Survival training had to do this twice. They were towed up to 700 ft under a parasail( think Paracommander with no steering toggles). The difference is they had flotation( LPU's) as well as a seat pack with a one man life raft in it. before they ever got to the canopy ride they also had to traverse a canopy laid out on the water by finding a seam and following it from one side to the other. Once they made it thru the so called basin training with the cable slide into the water and the canopy traverse.. they would load up and head out into the bay for thier rides up to altitude.

FYI... those were my very first canopy rides...and what got me into going out to the DZ for some real jumps

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[Erroll 49]

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......upon feet wet cut away the main.

On rounds with little to no flare, this makes sense, but I'm having difficulty with this as far as ram-air canopies are concerned. As your feet get wet haven't you just about reached the full flare point, with your hands in your crotch? In order to execute the breakaway you are going to have to let go of both toggles in order to get to your handle, and if the canopy has any forward speed left, surely it will surge forward, complicating matters? You also run the risk of not releasing the toggles evenly with the resultant rapid turn one way or the other?

[FrogNog 1]

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......upon feet wet cut away the main.

On rounds with little to no flare, this makes sense, but I'm having difficulty with this as far as ram-air canopies are concerned. As your feet get wet haven't you just about reached the full flare point, with your hands in your crotch? In order to execute the breakaway you are going to have to let go of both toggles in order to get to your handle, and if the canopy has any forward speed left, surely it will surge forward, complicating matters? You also run the risk of not releasing the toggles evenly with the resultant rapid turn one way or the other?

I think the "wet" description is a way of telling people NOT to cutaway before they touch the water. I don't think this wording is intended to try and get people to cut away in the one second after they touch the water and before they are completely immersed. (Swoopers may have a lot more time. )

I agree that cutting away mid-swoop while dragging a toe could complicate things if the water is not deep and clear. That's why they say to flare for the top of the water or use half-brakes: in case the water is shallow or there's something big and tough in it that you don't want to hit at full-flight speed.

In deep water or with stronger wind, results could vary. In high wind I once dropped my toggles immediately after touchdown and pulled my cutaway very quickly and it was a soft, stand-up landing. (Well, not for my canopy. )

I don't see myself trying to land all fancy-like in the event of an unplanned water landing.

P.S. *cough*RSL*cough*

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Erroll 49]

Fair enough.

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P.S. *cough*RSL*cough*

I think it is reasonable to assume that under most conditions the jumper will know that he/she is about to do a water landing and should therefore disconnect the RSL.

[apley 0]

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P.S. *cough*RSL*cough*

I think it is reasonable to assume that under most conditions the jumper will know that he/she is about to do a water landing and should therefore disconnect the RSL.