Learning from Each Other

[NWFlyer 2]

Moderators - feel free to move this if this isn't the right forum. I wanted to bring this up but didn't want to threadjack other discussions.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1448166

Bill's sticky (linked above) and the response I've seen to some of my posts and the posts of other students or low-timers got me to thinking about these forums and how people interact.

I'm new to skydiving, new to Dropzone.com, so I'm still learning the "rules" of the community. I've learned pretty quickly that while there is a lot of good information here, you've got to take everything you read with a grain of salt, process it, filter it, take it back to a trusted source (instructor, DZO, etc) for validation and choose to act on it or not act on it. Bill's post says that much better than I did. Same goes for most of what I hear or observe on the DZ - some of it's good stuff, some of it is B.S.

That doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking questions and trying to learn as much as I can from as many different sources as I can. I'm one of those people who is an information sponge, and I learn and retain best when I hear (or see) the same thing explained multiple times in multiple ways. It took five different people (some instructors, some not) explaining to me how to get off a lift on a snowboard before someone finally explained it in a way that "clicked" with me.

What I guess is frustrating to me is that I perceive a bit of a lack of respect (or at the very least discomfort) at students or low-timers providing *any* feedback or advice to questions that are asked here. I'm very careful to always say "I'm on student status" and "ask your instructors/coaches" when I offer any advice, but as a student who is currently facing the challenges of the student progression, I can offer a very different perspective and viewpoint. The farther along you are in any new thing in life, the harder it is to remember what it was like to be brand new and learning.

Instructors and coaches can learn something from students and low-timers because we all learn in different ways and the more we talk about things that were successful in helping us (newbies) learn, the more things instructors have in their arsenal for the next student.

I've read enough to know where this attitude comes from - as in ANY sport, there are an awful lot of newbies who think they know it all, the "X-jump wonders". But please, I encourage you not to let your cynicism about those types color your interactions with anyone who is less experienced than you who offers an opinion. There are a lot of us who are new to this sport who are trying hard to learn and grow and become valued members of this community both online and offline, and the ability to contribute is an important part of that journey.

I'm not thin-skinned. By all means, tell me (and others) if we're blatantly wrong. But a little respect for what we do bring to the table can go a long way in making us a part of this sport you love so much.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[skybytch 259]

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But a little respect for what we do bring to the table can go a long way in making us a part of this sport you love so much.

When talking about how it feels to do your 1st, 5th, 15th, 20th jump, yes, novice jumpers do have valid insights because you are far closer to those jump numbers than are those with hundreds or thousands more jumps than you. At 25 jumps you're still in what could be termed the "euphoria state" of jumping - it's all you think about so of course it's all you want to talk about.

When discussing the hows, whys and whens of skydiving (whether manuevers, emergency procedures, training, etc) all you can "bring to the table" is what you've been told by your instructors (or by other experienced jumpers, or even by other novices like yourself).

Let's say you're at work. You're a trained professional and have been doing your job for several years. You're standing around the water cooler with some of your coworkers when an intern who has been at the company for two weeks starts explaining your job to you - how from his experience things are much better done "this way" instead of the way you know from years of working in the field. How much respect would you show said intern?

Another way to look at it. You're standing around the fire at the dropzone. Alongside you are a couple of students, a few instructors, several riggers, the local gear dealer, a pilot and five "experienced" jumpers. One of the students asks a question about what kind of gear s/he should buy. Who should answer? The pilot because he sees lots of rigs on the plane? The rigger who packs lots of rigs? Or you, because you just bought a rig?

Think about it.

[firstime 0]

well said

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[mjosparky 3]

I think you are entirely right that "newbies" have something to contribute. All of us can learn for each other.

There are 2 areas where I think things get a little testy.

1. Newbies that parrot something they have heard and try to pass as knowledge on the subject. There is a difference between being able to repeat some bit of information and understanding what it means.

2. Newbies that will ask a question and then argue with the answer they get. They will continue to ask the same question until they get the answer they want.

This happens both on line and at the DZ. But it is a very small number and we (me) should not paint all newbies with the same brush.

Thanks for the contribution you have just made.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Brian425 0]

Skybytch is pretty much dead on on her assesment. One thing that us low time jumpers can REALLY help with are the feelings and fears related to skydiving. We are much closer to it than the more experienced jumpers. I can still very directly relate to many of the feeling that students have.

Also when discussing things that "worked for us" we need to be careful. Each student is a little bit different and each instructor has a slightly different teaching method. What's done at the Ranch might not be exactly the same as what's done at Eloy. Also we are still at the bottom of the learning curve. We are really just students allowed to self study.

What we can do is give emotional support and encouragement to the students. The person who sat all day on a wind hold. The person who did not jump because of fear or whatever other reason. The one who failed a level. I was amazed how far a few words of encouragement and a smile go.

We can also teach them to buy beer/soda. Don't forget that is an important part of skydiving. Sharing a few beers, a little food and a few laughs goes a long to meeting people at the DZ.

Just so you know, I have 38 jumps. I am just a wobbly belly flier learning to dock and track straight.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[Scrumpot 1]

Man, you've REALLY done well here Krisanne, to "soften" this old, crusty one here for sure!

In all seriousness though, I too think that when we approach things RESPECTING EACH OTHERS perspectives, and WITHOUT necessarily "broad-brushing" and flinging about the disparaging stereotypes (something that even little ol' me has been guilty of at times ) we are ALL better served. You have done me a service in here as well recently by pointing this out to me, and I appreciate it. This was a very well thought out and CONTRIBUTIVE post!

Thank you for having taken the time to do it. I'm sure (or at least I'm HOPING) you will get some very valid feedback here as a result of it. Just another thing to remember is that it is indeed a TWO WAY street. As some others also point out, it can in fact get FRUSTRATING when we (and when I say "we", I mean the euphemistic basically "all of us") witness a relatively low-timer, supposedly come in here for advice, then RECEIVE IT ...from someone like say my buddy Sparky here (who has "been around" awhile) or Skatch Garrison (dare I harken up another fairly recent thread? ) ...and then either TOTALLY ESCHEW IT, or further yet feel somehow compelled to "argue" it.

Unfortunately, there are those out there who merely are looking for nothing more than their own reaffirmations; or in other-words, the answer(s) they came in either LOOKING TO, or WANTING TO hear in the 1st place. In MANY cases THAT IS DANGEROUS ...and needs in some instances to be dealt with directly, and yes, TERSELY. If it stimulates a "reaction", that is not necessarily "bad".

As someone else has recently PM'd to me...

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Bottom line is that I know you guys have seen some shit, stuff that I dont want to see but I know I will, .. I just dont want to be that shit that you see next time...

I think that pretty much says it all. And this was an insightful realization by another jumper I was recently "arguing" a bit with. We (again that big euphemistic "broad brush" ) really just DON'T (as desperate as that may sound) want you guys to either see, or worse yet: yourselves BE "that shit"! Some of "you" (and us) inevitably though, no matter what we do will be ...but whatever "fight" I think that we all go through here, if it results in similar to the above realization, at least in my mind and in the end analysis DOES make all this, somewhat more "worth it".

Thank you again for taking the time to draw up, and then post, this very valid post; and for continuing to offer your viewpoints!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[NWFlyer 2]

Lisa - I don't disagree with anything you've said, and I appreciate the acknowledgement that newbies can bring a valuable perspective to discussions and also appreciate the caution that there's only so much we know and that we should tread lightly. I know I try to.

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Let's say you're at work. You're a trained professional and have been doing your job for several years. You're standing around the water cooler with some of your coworkers when an intern who has been at the company for two weeks starts explaining your job to you - how from his experience things are much better done "this way" instead of the way you know from years of working in the field. How much respect would you show said intern?

I know just enough about this sport to know how much I don't know, and the second I start to get too big for my britches, I'm glad to know there's plenty of people (both at my real and virtual dropzone) who will say "take a step back and think about what you're doing." I'd hope that I, or someone else, would do that for the intern as well. I guess the point I was trying to make is that just because there are a few "interns" out there, doesn't mean that all newbies should have their contributions dismissed. Engage us in healthy discussion. We can all learn.

I'd like to share one more thought that I shared with someone who PMed me about this post and asked for specific feedback about how he came across:

"It's tough because there ARE a lot of people who don't know what they don't know, and who aren't thoughtful about things and who don't listen, but keep an eye out for those who do because we're the ones that you (and others with lots of experience) can have the greatest influence on if the message doesn't get caught up in the attitude."

[NWFlyer 2]

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We can also teach them to buy beer/soda. Don't forget that is an important part of skydiving. Sharing a few beers, a little food and a few laughs goes a long to meeting people at the DZ.

Believe me, the folks at Snohomish already have me WELL indoctrinated into this particular tradition!

[grlsgotalot2lrn 0]

thank you! I've never wanted to learn as much about anything as I do about skydiving. And while I know I will learn the most from jumping, and jumping some more, Dropzone has been a great source for me, in terms of education and entertainment. As a newbie, I've learned that whuffos and experienced skydivers alike don't really want to hear anything I have to say about my new obsession. And like skybytch said, I do feel like I'm in the euphoria stage where it's all I think about. I don't think anyone can argue that dropzone.com is an amazing source for all skydivers. Maybe there should be a forum - Newbie advice noone should ever take.. I do agree that I sometimes feel a level of discomfort in even posting, but do know that what you bring to the table is respected and valued. I think most of the experienced jumpers don't want to see us in the incidents forum because we foolishly took bad advice from the wrong person. I just try to realize that the skydiving community is a small one, and most of these people know/know of one another. So when a newbie comes along thay really have no idea of knowing if we are the next scott lutz, or the next billvon . But as we grow and learn, I hope we will feel more valued. Even though respect isn't going to come easy, keep at it, it will come. And hopefully one day we'll have a hard time remembering what it was like to be a newbie. Thanks again for your post, to all the others who've posted before, and to all the others who will post in the future. . .

[Brian425 0]

NWflyer,
I have a feeling you will do fine here. You seem open minded and thoughtful. And you are right, we ALL have something to offer. One of the most important things is presenting it correctly.

And hell even if we suck at this sport and are a very dangerous to ourselves, at least we can be used as a bad example.

See Ya,

B

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[billvon 2,400]

>But please, I encourage you not to let your cynicism about
>those types color your interactions with anyone who is less
>experienced than you who offers an opinion.

Personally, what makes me consider or not consider advice people give is not based on what "those types" are like, but rather what _I_ was like. Around jump 100 I figured I knew a lot and gave out a lot of advice. Around jump 250, with a new JM rating, a "high performance" F111 canopy, and the respect of a lot of people at a small DZ, I thought I knew just about everything. I had met George Galloway and Sandy Reid! I knew Kate Cooper and Tony Domenico! I had done a 40 way! I had BASE jumped!

It took me to around jump 500 to realize that I didn't know very much after all. At best I knew a little bit about some parts of skydiving, but the amount I didn't know far outweighed the amount I did.

I see this happen in a lot of people in skydiving. Look around the bar - the guy holding forth on "what he should have done" often isn't the rigger with 8000 jumps over 30 years, it's a freeflyer with 250 jumps and a canopy he can't really land yet.

That's not to say that new jumpers don't have valid opinions on things. They are as entitled to their opinions as anyone else, and when it comes to "what's your favorite plane to jump out of?" someone with 100 jumps has just as much right to voice their opinion as someone with 2000. Still, it can be worth listening just a little more carefully to the guy who's had to bail out of more aircraft than the newer jumper has jumped so far.

I think a lot of it comes down to basic respect. Everyone deserves respect no matter how many jumps they have (or even if they have none.) As long as we have that, we're in pretty good shape, I think.

[bodypilot1 0]

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Another way to look at it. You're standing around the fire at the dropzone. Alongside you are a couple of students, a few instructors, several riggers, the local gear dealer, a pilot and five "experienced" jumpers. One of the students asks a question about what kind of gear s/he should buy. Who should answer? The pilot because he sees lots of rigs on the plane? The rigger who packs lots of rigs? Or you, because you just bought a rig?

Can I answer that after I find out how long the BEER light has been on?




Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Bandanarama 0]

Krisanne,

Is this your first Rodney Dangerfield "Get-No-Respect" posting? What is the number one rule for skydiving firsts? See ya at Skydive Snohomish in the near future. Is anyone else thirsty?

___________________________________________________

One's destination is never a place, but rather a new way of looking at things. ~ Henry Miller

[skybytch 259]

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Can I answer that after I find out how long the BEER light has been on?

As long as you're bringing the beer, it's all good.

Back on topic...

Part of the issue here is how to differentiate between those who will still be around and jumping ten years from now and those who will be moving on to other things before their Cypres is due for it's first factory service.

Harsh perhaps, but those who've been in the sport for awhile have seen too many excited new jumpers disappear once the thrill has worn off (or they see their first life flight take off... or they run out of $$$... or the whuffo significant other says no more... etc... etc...). Sometimes it's hard to make an emotional committment to someone (and respecting someone and their opinions is an emotional committment) we aren't at all sure will still be around next year.

Don't be too hard on "older" jumpers for an apparent lack of respect or caring. The "three year cycle" tends to lessen the effort put out to meet/get to know/show "respect" for the opinions of newer jumpers until the new jumper has been around awhile too. That may take a couple months, it may take years. It's not that the newer jumpers opinions/ideas don't have value, it's that the ones who've been around awhile have seen too many "flash in the pans."

[AggieDave 6]

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it's that the ones who've been around awhile have seen too many "flash in the pans."

Maybe its that I've only been in this sport for a bit under 5 years. Maybe its because I only have about 1400 jumps. Maybe its because I've only been an instructor for about 2 years...

BUT

I feel its my obligation to new jumpers to answer their questions to the best of my ability or point them to the person that can answer their questions correctly. Pay it forward means a lot to me in this sport and I feel like its my duty and responsibilty to help out the low time jumpers as best I can. Basically because I was there, I was "that guy" that was asking all the questions and trying to discuss different opinions so to learn from the conversation.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NWFlyer 2]

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Krisanne,

Is this your first Rodney Dangerfield "Get-No-Respect" posting? What is the number one rule for skydiving firsts? See ya at Skydive Snohomish in the near future. Is anyone else thirsty?

Eric, believe me, I'm bringing out a keg at this point.

[NWFlyer 2]

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As someone else has recently PM'd to me...

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Bottom line is that I know you guys have seen some shit, stuff that I dont want to see but I know I will, .. I just dont want to be that shit that you see next time...

I think that pretty much says it all. And this was an insightful realization by another jumper I was recently "arguing" a bit with. We (again that big euphemistic "broad brush" ) really just DON'T (as desperate as that may sound) want you guys to either see, or worse yet: yourselves BE "that shit"! Some of "you" (and us) inevitably though, no matter what we do will be ...but whatever "fight" I think that we all go through here, if it results in similar to the above realization, at least in my mind and in the end analysis DOES make all this, somewhat more "worth it".

I don't want to "be" that shit either. That's why I'm trying so hard to learn as much as I can from as many different sources as I can. The people at my DZ and here with much more experience than me have so much to teach me and I'm trying to absorb it all.

There is so much knowledge and support and wisdom in this community, and I hope no one here thinks I'm bashing the experienced folks, because I'm not. As I posted just 10 days ago, the time I spent on DZ.com helped reinforce my training to the point of helping me deal with a low-speed malfunction. That's such a powerful positive influence and I hope that what I've accomplished by starting this thread is to remind folks of how much good can come of a forum like this, even with its frustrations and disagreements.

[kelpdiver 2]

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2. Newbies that will ask a question and then argue with the answer they get. They will continue to ask the same question until they get the answer they want.

Answer shopping certainly does happen, but not too rarely an answer does not feel right (or perhaps just not complete), and the only explanation given is that the answerer is too experienced to be bothered to explain it. (but not too busy to spend a lot of time mocking you for asking).

Given the number of high timers who continue to give me the 45 degree answer when I ask for suggested separations with a new exit sequence scenario, this can be very frustrating.

[peek 20]

Nice observations.

"Filter" is the key word in _all_ internet usage.

Obviously you are one of those willing to do the work that will enable you to make good use of these resources.

Many aren't willing to do that work, including many experienced skydivers and instructors.

I read quite a few posts made by less experienced skydivers because I am interested in how they perceive certain things, and in particular, how I can better teach skydiving, having learned their perspective.

Or, as I always say, "I learn so much from my students."

[Reginald 0]

I’ll throw in my 2 cents.

I’ve seen a lot of very low timers, including students, give technical advice on skydiving. Much of this advice is just plain wrong, and the newbies don’t know enough to know it’s wrong. Although we all should filter what we read, and understand the source of the info and that source’s credibility, unfortunately that’s not always the case. Other people might not know it’s incorrect advice and take it. Thus low timers giving technical advice, particularly to other students, is generally a bad idea.

At 350 jumps and a USPA and SDU coaches rating, I’m uncomfortable giving technical advice on DZ.com except in some very limited areas.

I encourage low timers, especially, students to give encouragement to other students and feedback to higher jump number skydivers (including instructors) about what type or method of instruction or advice worked for them. It helps me, for one, relate better to students and low(er) timers in the future.

The vast majority of my posts are encouragement to other skydivers and relating my own experiences. For example, I’m willing to talk about my experience with a cutaway using a skyhook, because I’ve been there. I’m not comfortable talking about how to install a skyhook because I know squat about rigging.

Anyone wanting the respect of others on this board should try and earn that respect by understanding what they can, in a meaningful way, contribute and what they should shy away from. The fastest way to loose respect on this board is to make it clear that one does not know what they are talking about.

Healthy debate and discussion is a good thing and we ALL can contribute and learn from each other regardless of jump numbers, but it is also a courtesy to keep our input to things we have some expertise in. That may be how we overcame the fear of being a student, our rigging prowess, our experiences on downsizing, or whatever is appropriate.

Krisanne, I think you brought up a great point of discussion here and I believe we can all learn something from it.

I hope your adventures in skydiving are as rewarding as mine are!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[firstime 0]

I gave advice to someone who had 8 jumps and I had only 25 jumps... This person had problems with
getting stable after exit and I said "just look at the plane until you get flat". He PM'd me and said
"great advice" it worked. Had I said that here I would have gotten spanked like a bad puppy. Can
anyone dispute that advice??
I love these forums but it's (or maybe always has been)?? become "my daddy is bigger than yours"
hey sky gods..don't forget where you came from..

Hey Reginald, this was in support of your post, just needed some where to put it

[mjosparky 3]

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2. Newbies that will ask a question and then argue with the answer they get. They will continue to ask the same question until they get the answer they want.

Answer shopping certainly does happen, but not too rarely an answer does not feel right (or perhaps just not complete), and the only explanation given is that the answerer is too experienced to be bothered to explain it. (but not too busy to spend a lot of time mocking you for asking).

Given the number of high timers who continue to give me the 45 degree answer when I ask for suggested separations with a new exit sequence scenario, this can be very frustrating.

I agree with you that time in sport and jump numbers do not automatically mean knowledge. You could have 20 years and 5,000 jumps or 1 year repeated 20 times and 100 jumps repeated 50 times. But for the most part, the more "experienced" jumper will have more knowledge. You must remember that this is the internet and remember that when taking advise posted here.

About getting and answer that is incomplete or doesn't feel right. I have never seen a post that referred to someone being to "experienced to be bothered". Quite the opposite, I have seen some very experienced and knowledgeable jumpers take a great deal of time explaining something to a newer jumper. You might just have real thin skin.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Frenchy68 0]

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I know just enough about this sport to know how much I don't know

I would actually challenge this statement. I doubt anyone, regardless of their experience level, knows how much they don't know.My own take: at my level, I can advise someone on which beer tastes best to me; on cool rig color combo (mine rocks); and on personal feelings experienced on a skydive. But at such a low level of experience, and due to the amount of sensory overload we tend to feel, we think we "know" about the sport. We know just barely enough not to crater ourselves into the ground IMHO (the canopy control requirements being meant for another thread).
I get very wary of threads started by Tandem or AFF Students, with several posts by low "jump-number" newbies lining up one after the other...
My .02 notevenenoughtobuybeer cents...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[billvon 2,400]

>Had I said that here I would have gotten spanked like a bad puppy.

Had you said "you must look at the horizon to be stable" you might have gotten spanked. If you had said "I looked at the horizon, and it worked for me" you probably wouldn't have. There's nothing wrong with sharing your experiences; it's something we all do. But it's a little worrisome to see a student take authoritative advice (i.e. "do this!") from someone with 25 jumps.

Case in point. I once had a nervous woman jumper who did fine on her first jump. We were worried about her overarching (she was small and very flexible) so her I worked on her a bit on getting her body position right. She did OK on her first jump, but was worried because she was stiff and was potato chipping a little.

On her next jump (the one I was on) she arched so much that she almost fell out of the harness; we grabbed her harness and got her dearched a little, but by the time she was OK again it was near pull time. Turns out a friend of hers had told her "you gotta arch through your hips as hard as you can!" to help her with her perceived stability problem. Good advice for most people, but it was a mistake for her. Her friend's advice cost her $140 in a repeat dive.

Now, was he evil for doing that? Not at all. He was trying to help. But sometimes even the best intended help can cause trouble if you don't have the experience to know when it's inappropriate.

>become "my daddy is bigger than yours"
>hey sky gods..don't forget where you came from..

Not "my daddy is bigger than yours" - it's "some people know better than you." It's no problem to not have as much experience as someone else, as long as you recognize that that does mean something in terms of the value of advice you give.

[Kbone 0]

I don't mind listening to newbies give each other advice. I used to get annoyed but now I just laugh.

It's like listening to a 12 year old tell another kid how to drive.

At the end of the day, I really don't worry about it.
Every skydiver is over 18 years old, which makes them a legal adult capable of making their own decisions.

They can choose to listen to the guy with thousands of jumps or listen to the 20 jump wonder that just got off student status. It is their decision to accept their advice as fact or opinion.

If a rookie skydiver wants advice from a seasoned vetran, they will ask! If he just wants to "shoot the shit" with the low timers, let them have their fun!