Sportbike rider/canopy pilot parallels

[Hooknswoop 19]

An article from a sport bike forum caught my attention because of the interesting parallels between new sport bike riders and new canopy pilots. Human nature isn’t limited to skydiving. (Reproduced here with the author’s permission).

"Form Equals Function: Sportbikes are Not Beginner Bikes

Introduction

Well, another riding season is upon us and as it always happens, we get lots of inquiries from potential new riders on how to get into the sport, what's a good first ride, where to take safety classes and so on. One particular type of inquiry that pops up with almost clockwork frequency is from a small number of new riders who wish to buy 600cc and up sportbikes as their first ride.

For the past year and a half, I, along with lots of other BB forum members, have entertained this question of 600cc sportbikes for a first ride with patience and lots and lots of repetition. It seems this small group of newbies keep coming back with the same arguments and questions over and over again. As a result, I am going to take the time in this column to try and put into words, answers that get repeated over and over on the BB forums.

Allow me to state first and foremost that I am a sport rider. My first bike was a Ninja 250R and I put nearly 7000 miles on it in two seasons before selling it. Although I am not an expert rider by any stretch, I have tinkered enough and done enough research along with talking with other riders to be able to speak with some degree of knowledge on the subject.

This column is split into two parts. First, I would like to address the common arguments we see here as to why a 600cc sportbike simply must be a first ride along with rebuttals. Second, I want to cover the rationale behind why the sportbikez.net community-at-large steers new riders away from these machines.

False Logic

On about a three month interval, a whole slew of questions pop up on the forum from potential riders trying to convince the community that a 600cc sportbike is a suitable first ride and then proceed to explain to us why they are the exception. I can almost set my clock to this pattern of behavior since it is almost swarm-like. I guess the newbies figure by swamping the forum with the same questions in lots of places we might trip up and endorse such a machine. Hasn't happened yet but they keep on trying.

For those of you that come to Beginner Bikes trying to convince us to endorse a 600cc sportbike, I offer you the following responses to your arguments.
I can only afford to get one bike so it might as be the one that I want.

I don't want to go through the hassle of buying and selling a used bike to learn on.

These two lines of reasoning pop up as one of the more common arguments. I am going to offer first a piece of wisdom which is stated with great regularity on the forums:

This is your first bike, not your last.

Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc.

Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible.

However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000.

Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike.

Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category.

If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there.

And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue with.

Vanity Arguments

The beginner bikes you recommend are dated and ugly looking.

I want something that's modern and stylish.

I want a bike that looks good and that I look good on.

I call these the vanity arguments. These are probably the worst reasons you can have for wanting a particular bike.

I will not disagree that aesthetics plays a huge part in the bikes that appeal to us. Motorcycles are the ultimate expression in personal taste in vehicles. Far more than cars. Bikes are more personal and the connection between rider and machine is far more intimate on a bike than a car. On a bike, you are part of the machine, not just a passive passenger.

However, as entry into world of riding and with the temporarily status that most beginner bikes have in our garages, looks should be the least of your concerns. As long as the bike is in good repair and mechanically sound, that is usually enough for most new riders to be happy. Most riders are happy to ride and they will ride anything given the choice between riding or not riding.

If you are looking at bike mainly because of how it looks and/or how you will look it and how others will perceive you on it, take a good, long, honest look as to why you want to ride. There are lots of people out there who buy things strictly because of how it makes them appear in the eyes of others. It's shallow and vain but it is a fact of life. It shouldn't be a factor in choosing that first ride but it is. I won't deny that.

The difference is: a BMW or Mercedes generally won't leaving you hanging on for dear life if you stomp on the accelerator or throw you into the road if you slam on the brakes a little hard. Virtually ever sportbike made in the past 10-15 years will do both of those things given a chance to do so (for reasons that will be explained later in this column).

The population at large may think you're cool and look great on that brand new sportbike and ohh-and-ahh at you. The ohhs can quickly turn to screams of horror should, in your efforts to impress the masses, you wind up dumping your bike and surfing the asphalt. Will you still look cool with thousands of dollars in damage to that once-beautiful sportbike and with the signatures and well-wishes of your friends on the various casts you'll be wearing months afterwards?

You Be The Judge

I'm a big rider so I need a bigger bike to get me around.

I'm a tall rider and all of those beginner bikes just don't fit me the way the sportbike does.

I'll look huge and foolish riding on such a small bike.

My friends will laugh at me for riding something so small.

These arguments are almost as bad as the vanity arguments. The difference being is they simply show a lack of motorcycle knowledge for the most part.

Unless you are over 6'3" tall or are extremely overweight (meaning well over 300lbs), even the smallest 250cc motorcycle will be able to accommodate you without difficultly. To provide an example, the Ninja 250R has a load limit of 348 pounds. That is more than sufficient to accommodate a heavier rider in full gear and still leave plenty of space for cargo in tank, tail and saddle bags. Or enough to allow two-up riding between two average weight individuals.

The idea that bigger riders need bigger bikes is almost laughable. It's like saying small drivers need Honda Civics but bigger drivers only 100 pounds heavier need to drive Hummers to get around. Or Corvettes with plenty of power to pull their ample frames, as the analogy goes. It is only because of the small physical size of bikes compared to their users that this train of thought even exists. It simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. A look at any motorcycle owner's manual will confirm that for you.

Tall riders suffer more from fit issues than weight issues. On this, they do have a point. I'm a taller rider (6'1"). I do fold up quite comfortably on the Ninja 250 which is considered a small bike. I found it perfect for my frame. Others haven't. Then again, my knees hit the bars on bikes like the Rebel 250 and Buell Blast. Just different ergonomics that didn't fit me.

For taller riders, a much better beginner fit is a dual-sport machine rather than a sport machine. They offer the high seat heights that make them comfortable rides and their power is well within acceptable limits. We have a small but vocal dual-sport community here and they will tell you, quite rightly, that a dual-sport is just as capable on twisty roads as a sportbike. The same properties that give sportbikes their cornering ability is also possessed by dual sports (high center of gravity).

As to peer pressure, I admit to taking more than my fair share of ribbing from my 600cc riding friends. Some of it good natured, some of it not. In the end, this argument falls into the vanity arena. Which is more important: Your safety and comfort on a bike or what your friends think?

The ways to deal with friends giving you a hard time about a smaller ride is very simple. Tell them to ride their rides and you'll ride yours. It's your ride, after all. Most true riders will accept other riders, no matter what they are on. Only posers and losers care that your ride doesn't measure up to their "standards". And if so, do you really want to be riding with them anyway? It's more fun to stand out than to be a member of a flock anyway. And if they don't buy that line of reasoning, try this one: "Well if you don't like my ride, why don't you go buy me something that you will like?". THAT will shut them up REALLY fast. It works too. Unless their name is on the payment book or the title, it shouldn't be their concern.

If your friends can't deal with your decisions, you're probably better off looking for new friends. And if you can't deal with the peer pressure, then you are putting your own safety at risk solely because of what others think. Revisit the vanity arguments above and think about why you want to ride.

Decision Justification Arguments

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions.

The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues.

Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity.

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of.

But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding.

In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to.

Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling.

You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation.

It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers."

Derek

[tdog 0]

So the fact I purchased a 600CC bike for my first bike 6 years ago, which I still ride, is wrong then...

I would let my best friend buy a 600CC bike as his first bike, but I would not let him own a canopy that was more than 1.2 to 1 wingloading as his first canopy... Why? Because on a sport bike you don't have to go fast - whereas on a canopy you really can't slow down beyond reason...

So I guess your author you quoted can flame me away. For the record, the one accident I got into had nothing to do with the size of the bike, and the one accident I avoided with the narrowest margin was saved by the fact I could floor it and get out of the guy's path.

But still a good article.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

So the fact I purchased a 600CC bike for my first bike 6 years ago, which I still ride, is wrong then

I didn't write the article. It's not a perfect parallel, but addresses some of the same issues new canopy pilots face. (My first bike was a 600 too

Quote

Because on a sport bike you don't have to go fast - whereas on a canopy you really can't slow down beyond reason...

Very, very true. excellent point. Again, not a perfect parrallel, but not bad.

Derek

[Brains 2]

I think it is a great parallel. Obviously not exactly the same things but i have heard so many of the same lame arguements from canopy purchasers. Nice find and thanks for posting.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Tink1717 2]

You forgot the "My skills are bigger than my experience.." argument.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[hipgnosis 0]

Quote

So the fact I purchased a 600CC bike for my first bike 6 years ago, which I still ride, is wrong then...

So since you did it it's for everyone?

I notice that you didn't notice your height/weight, what style/kind of bike it was, or any of the other myriad of details. These matter, a lot. Just looking at the CC's paints a really incomplete picture of the situation - one really has to look at the bike type and weight/power ratio. For example, a 750 cc cruiser will be safer and more docile than a 600 cc crotch rocket.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that a sweeping generalization like this is what newbies tend to cling to when justifying going to a canopy or bike they have no business on.

Bill
(1997 Suzuki Intruder 800 -> Kawasaki Ninja 1000 -> Kawasaki 7R-7S -> 2003 GSX 1300R -> 2005 GSX 1000R)

[hookncrater 0]

My canopy progression has been slower than my sport bike progression by far:

1995 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-7
1996 Ducati 900SS SP
1998 Ducati 748
2003 BMW K1200RS

I started with the fastest in class (at the time) 750cc sport bike. However, I knew as soon as I bought it that I was waaaay over my head when it came to riding it hard. So, what did I do? MSF riders skills course, worked with my experienced friends on riding skills, read tons of books by Keith Code and others, and tried not to kill myself. And it worked.

Now, over a decade later I have seat time on about 50 different models of motorcycles of every style from Honda to Harley to sidecar bikes and am definately an expert by any definition of the word. What did all that time teach me? Start small(er) but that doesn't mean you have to start on a 250 which is tiny IMO.

Same goes for canopies IMHO. You can jump something safely that is a bit aggressive, just don't go and start hooking the sh1t out of it after only a few jumps on it. Get coaching, study, and do tons of H&Ps! Jumping a boat for hundreds jumps is just overkill IMO.

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when in doubt... hook it!

[Beerlight 0]

Hey Derek, nice article and appreciate whatever you contribute...

Hijack: Did you ever get in touch with Ryan Wannemacher?? And business is booming here at the NBL .

Buck

[Hooknswoop 19]

Yep, Ryan and I got caught up. Ran into John Grunsfield the other day. I dove with him on the last Hubble mission.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Same goes for canopies IMHO. You can jump something safely that is a bit aggressive, just don't go and start hooking the sh1t out of it after only a few jumps on it. Wink Get coaching, study, and do tons of H&Ps! Jumping a boat for hundreds jumps is just overkill IMO.

The difference, like Tdog said, is you can't slow down a canopy like you can a bike. How often do people accidently roll the throttle to the stop, commiting themselves to go a certain distance before they can get it stopped? A hard turn under canopy does exactly that.

Also, just like with bikes, people tend to push with a too small canopy.

I don't see the big deal with starting with a less aggressive bike/canopy. Is it possible to get away with it? Of course, but why stack the odds against yourself?

Derek

[tdog 0]

Quote

Quote

So the fact I purchased a 600CC bike for my first bike 6 years ago, which I still ride, is wrong then...

So since you did it it's for everyone?

No... I had the maturity to take a class, go slow on my learning, and respect the bike.

Quote

I notice that you didn't notice your height/weight, what style/kind of bike it was, or any of the other myriad of details. These matter, a lot. Just looking at the CC's paints a really incomplete picture of the situation - one really has to look at the bike type and weight/power ratio. For example, a 750 cc cruiser will be safer and more docile than a 600 cc crotch rocket.

I had the crotch rocket. I was 190 pounds and 6-3".

Quote

What I guess I'm trying to say is that a sweeping generalization like this is what newbies tend to cling to when justifying going to a canopy or bike they have no business on.

Bill
(1997 Suzuki Intruder 800 -> Kawasaki Ninja 1000 -> Kawasaki 7R-7S -> 2003 GSX 1300R -> 2005 GSX 1000R)

Bill... I am friends with Hooknswoop who started this thread and actually went on a ride with him before I posted my response that you replied to.

My post was in the spirit of saying - canopy progression has to be taken even more serious than motorcycle progression - simply because - on a motorcycle with discipline and awareness you can go slow in your learning... No way to slow down a canopy, even for a "straight in approach"... Just saying, "I don't plan on hookin it" does not slow down the speed, whereas on a bike you can say, "I am not going past 50% throttle, sticking to the less populated roads, sticking to the speed limit, and practicing a lot in empty parking lots emergency stopping, evasive turns, etc.)

I love my 600 cc bike. I have no intention of getting something different - after riding a few. It is light weight, nimble, quick, and does everything I need it to do. I honestly believe it was a great bike to learn on and keep forever. (my first 20 miles were on a 250 CC bike, but that was in a class.)

If I had ANY doubt that one of my friends did not have the maturity to learn on a 600CC bike, I would believe that then the WOULD NOT have the maturity to ride ANY bike. If they can't (which many younger males can't) know where the line is and promise to themselves not to cross it - then they have no business of being on a bike.

Bikes only go when you accelerate and you can choose how hard you accelerate and when you stop accelerating... Canopies you can't stop it from flying unless you chop it, land it, collapse it, or crash it.

I am in 100% agreement, you can't safely learn on a fast high WL canopy - because there is no way to slow it down and fly within "your limits" - instead it flies you at "its limits."

That's all I am thinking...

• Quote

[Erroll 49]

Quote

But you are also entering in a contract with the bike canopy. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike canopy to act on your inputs and the bike canopy in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike canopy doesn't know that. It does what it is told.

Not a lot different to what Ron, Bill, Derek, Ian or any number of other experienced jumpers have said many times over. Very accurate parallel, in my opinion.

[Ron 7]

Very good artical....

And one reason I have not bought a bike yet.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[outlawphx 1]

I took my MSF class on a Ninja 250, which was a fun bike to ride (although it was my first time ever riding a motorcycle). The funny thing is I never see that class of bikes out on the road. The smallest bike I commonly see driving around is a GS 500. I think a great starter bike for sportbikes is the Suzuki SV 650. It has potential to be set up as a race bike, and it can be competitive in many classes.

I went out and bought a brand new '95 YZF-600 after getting my motorcycle license, and I managed to put 10k miles on it with no lay downs. 600cc bikes now days have about 15 more horsepower and weigh 50 pounds less. I think that makes them a little sketchier as first bikes.

My last bike was a 2000 YZF-R1 that I ended up decking out with Ohlins shocks front and rear. After putting another 10k miles on that, I decided that I prefer to stick to the racetrack.

There are just too many inattentive drivers out there trying to kill me, and they don't even realize how close they've come to being successful. Maybe there is a parallel between that and canopy patterns over the DZ

Anyway, I think sportbike riders and canopy pilots do have many parallels, and I think the number one thing that differentiates the safety of people in both sports is mindset. I generally always rode with the same group of riders, and we all were veterans of many track schools, track days, and road racing competitions. We were always willing to mentor to new riders, and we helping many riders improve their skills to become peers. But for every person decked out in full leathers with appreciation for a reasonable skill progression in a group like mine, there are a half dozen kids riding sportbikes in tank tops and shorts trying to do wheelies in traffic.

Now my group wasn't exactly conservative though, but we tried to minimize our risk. We wore protective gear, slowly pushed the limits of our skill, scouted roads before blasting them, etc. One day a rider of ours lowsided his R1 doing about 80 mph through a turn going up a popular mountain. We had ridden up the road at a slow speed to scout the road conditions and for police like normal, but he just pushed too hard that day. He was in full leathers with a back protector, and his only injury was to his palm where the road burned through a small part of his riding gloves. While we were waiting for a tow truck for him, and inexperienced rider on a Katana crashed a mile down the hill. He had never taken any courses, and generally didn't respect the position he put himself in. He was wearing a tank top and shorts, so he left a nasty streak of skin on the pavement. He was life flighted out, but luckily he lived.

I guess the comparison between those two riders is similar to low timers and experienced canopy pilots that get hurt. The low timer often didn't even realize the position they put themselves into until after the accident. The experienced person knew the risks and just pushed too deep into the safety margin. The other difference between the two classifications of people is that the ratio of low timers to experienced people getting hurt is heavily skewed to the low timers.

[nicknitro71 0]

Having raced bikes professionally I see a lot of parallels with super-fast uneducated canopy progressing and squids on bikes they don't have the skills to even ride them at their 50%.

It is true that some people might have the right state of mind to buy a 600 sport bike as first bike but they are the vast minority.

Riding is a very difficult skill to master and it's hard to master it with a bike that is capable of stuff that should be left for the track and for very skilled riders. Same with learning to swoop on a canopy loaded at 1.8 at 100 jumps.

A ninja 250 does not have the "cool" factor of a R6 like a Triathlon 210 does not have the cool factor of a Katana 120. And some must be cool or else...I see it everyday on the street, and read it here as well.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I think that's a great article. As I started riding at the age of six (on minibikes/dirtbikes) and was a small kid, it was hard to do too much damage to myself on the size of bikes I was capable of riding. As I grew, so did the size of bike I rode/raced. I did not get my first street bike till I was a senior in high school (a 1980 Suzuki GS 400) and, lucky for me, it only ran around 90 mph wide open. I have owned/raced a ATC 250R three wheeler since then, had unlimited access to a CR500 Elsinore, owned three Harleys and a Buell.

I have wrecked every single motorcycle/ATV I have ever owned at least once (minus the new Buell) for one reason or another. All the street bike incidents have been at relatively low speed and left me mostly unscathed, but I had many, many hellacious motocross wrecks (still, no broken bones ever). I learned my lesson on street bikes when I, like a moron, went flying past a truck, uphill, double-yellow no-passing line, on a badly patched piece of road on an original Kawasaki 900 Ninja (this was 1985). I wobbed out as I was forced into the very center of the road when I found myself head-to-head with oncoming traffic. I knew I was dead so I simply let go of the handlebars and waited for the inevitible. Amazingly, the vehicles passed me less than two inches on either side of me, the road got smooth, and the front end stopped wobbling. I pulled over, parked the bike, walked thirty minutes up the road shaking like a leaf, turned around and walked back to the bike, and rode it 45 mph back to Fort Bragg where I promptly gave the bike back. That was all the lesson I needed and it wasn't until 1990 that I considered buying another street bike.

I still ride pretty hard sometimes, but never wrecklessly. Unfortunately, that simply cannot be said of the literally thousands of young GI's running around town on their brand-new rice rockets. Fresh back from Afghanistan/Iraq with a pocket full of money and off they go to one of the many bike shops in town. 600 F4's are the minimum size bike anyone of them will accept, 1000's and above being the norm. I am talking first bikes here. I wonder how often I see them on the cover of the newspaper? A lot, that's how much. They ride wide open throttle in big packs weaving in and out of traffic. You can't tell them shit.

Lots of "grown" people I know have "both" kinds of bikes. I have a 2001 Harley FLTR Road Glide for tooling around on and going on road trips and a 2003 Buell XB9S for doing wheelies and riding hard/scaring myself. I keep current on both because I ride both almost daily. My bikes ride as differently from one another as I could possibly imagine. I ride both with the same confidence as I show when switching between my tandem main and my Velocity or Sabre2. Not everyone has that ability with bikes/canopies because they simply do not stay current enough on both varieties of whatever they ride/pilot.

Sorry for rambling, but the original post really struck home with me and others here at Raeford because we just had one of our best, most accomplished canopy pilots (who also does tandems for a living) wreck the hell out of his GSXR 1000 (he also rides a custom Harley). Unless I am mistaken, both were his first bikes ever. In this case, even his fantastic skydiving/canopy piloting ability did not rub over onto his riding ability.

Chuck

2001 FLTR/2003 Buell Lightning
Firebolt 350 tandem/Velocity 84

[goose491 0]

Quote

I would let my best friend buy a 600CC bike as his first bike, but I would not let him own a canopy that was more than 1.2 to 1 wingloading as his first canopy... Why? Because on a sport bike you don't have to go fast - whereas on a canopy you really can't slow down beyond reason...

Good point. However, on a bike, there are a good number of situations you can find yourself in that are better to throttle out of than to break.

Being cut off on the highway, for example, and grabing a handful of throttle to avoid being struck... too much bike and you may find yourself trying to avoid traffic on one wheel.

Having said that, I bought my first motorcycle this year. It is a Suzuki Katana 600. This is actually spoken of as a good starter-bike. It is classified as sport-touring. It is heavy, low to the ground and has a longer wheel base which makes the above-example a little harder to find yourself in.

I agree it is a well written article. Mine is a 600 but I would not recomend any other 600 sport bike as a first.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[hexadecimal 0]

I used to get pissed about my insurance rates going up because of idiot kids and their parents buying them Hayabusas and other 1000+cc sports bikes which they ride in t-shirts, shorts, and flip flops... but now I just see it as evolution getting rid of the dumb ones.

[hookncrater 0]

Probably the thing I hate the most about motorcycling and skydiving is the hypocrisy of them both. There is so much, "Do as I say and not as I do (did)." going on it's humorous.

In both sports the real secret has nothing to do with fractions of a point in wingload or an extra 250cc of engine displacement. It has to do with staying within your limits. If you don't know what your limit is, then set it arbitrarily low 'till you can figure it out. I never ride my bikes, or fly my canopy, at greater than a 7/10ths pace. That way, you always have an out.

Some people may say it's luck, but luck doesn't last that long. I was loading my canopy at 1.2 at like 70-80 jumps and started with a 750 for my first bike but you'd never catch me doing a 270 on approach or a crossed-up wheelie exiting the local DQ parking lot. Why? Because I knew A (speed) + B (skill) + C (unknown) =

Just like most people in this thread, I have had friends that augured-in on bikes and canopies, but I doubt any of them would want the proposed nanny-state that some desire.

For the record, I have never had more than a couple scratches in either pursuit.

edit: can't spell

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when in doubt... hook it!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Probably the thing I hate the most about motorcycling and skydiving is the hypocrisy of them both. There is so much, "Do as I say and not as I do (did)." going on it's humorous.

Doesn't that allow the sport to grow? Doesn't learning from the mistakes of those that came before us prevent us from making the same mistakes? Isn't that the point of accident investigations? Figure out exactly what happend and prevent it from happening again? What you call "hypocrisy", I call "growth".

Imagine where skydiving would be if the hard learned lessons were not passed on.

Derek

[billvon 2,406]

>Doesn't learning from the mistakes of those that came before
>us prevent us from making the same mistakes?

I think he's talking about the common "Yeah, I jumped a Hornet 120 (or rode a 600) real early on, and it was OK for me - but don't you do that!" Because what new people hear when you say that is not that the sport has evolved, but rather "You suck and I don't."

[hookncrater 0]

I don't consider the banning of "hook turns" or a BSR-of-the-month "growth".

I call it a cop-out. The law of unintended consequences will destroy this sport if left unchecked.

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when in doubt... hook it!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I don't consider the banning of "hook turns" or a BSR-of-the-month "growth".

I said the passing on of lessons like "Do not jump an ROL when free-flying, I did and it sucked when I had a pre-mature deployment." Not banning hook turns and BSR's. You called it hypocrisy to say, “Don’t do what I did.” I disagree. Is it hypocrisy to pass on hard learned lessons? I don’t think it is.

Derek

[hipgnosis 0]

The point behind my post wasn't to say your progression was in any way wrong but to say that it definitely doesn't apply to anyone.

This statement bothers me though :

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Bikes only go when you accelerate and you can choose how hard you accelerate and when you stop accelerating... Canopies you can't stop it from flying unless you chop it, land it, collapse it, or crash it.

If I started out with my current bike I'd be dead right now. Yes, it only accelerates when I rotate the throttle, yes it only does what I ask it to. The problem is that I didn't have the experience to know what those inputs were at the time.

Panic stop? I'd be over the handle bars.

Trying to pull away from traffic a bit quick? Better hope you can bring the front back down eventually.

Or a bit too much gas in a curve causing loss of traction. Or any number of things were just the slightest bit of wrong input gets amplified by the bike into a huge problem.

People who think "I'll be conservative and only ride at 50% of the bikes potential" are accidents waiting to happen. Yes, in normal situations they'll be ok, but the second something that requires instant reaction occurs they need to be 100% accurate or they're toast.


Happy riding!


Bill

[hookncrater 0]

We're not talking about those kind of lessons though.

For instance, when I was a student I was going over my A license card (the 2 page old one) and asked one of the instructors to clarify #7. "Above 1,000 feet, perform front riser dives and turns". I asked how/what to do and what would happen to the canopy when pulling on those particular lines. He said, "don't touch 'em". This is the same person that on every jump will do a 720 hook, landing within 6 inches of the beer line. Granted he is an awesome skydiver/canopy pilot but it's exactly that kind of condescending attitude that pisses me off. I got a second opinion, and a much more educated response from a younger/better instructor.

When 80% of the "up jumpers" (I'm referring to the local swoop-gods not the skilled professionals) give advice in my experience they are really just saying, "You'll never progress as fast as me so don't bother trying."

The opposite of that is the type that waited 1000 jumps to try an "elliptical" canopy then all-of-a-sudden says, "No one should ever jump canopy X until they had Y amount of jumps." What they are really saying is that you shouldn't try it until you have more jumps than I had at the time since I was too scared/conservative to try it earlier and I am trying cover it up now by being a self-prophesed "safe" skydiver.

What I would like to see is: If you want to progress to (elliptical/x-brace/swooping/higher wingload) here are the tools you need. What I detest is: Come back after you have bored 200-more holes in the sky because some chart on the internet says so. We need to collectively stop whining about wingload and focus more on how to not get in the corner to begin with, literally and figuratively. It's not the canopy that kills, it's the pilot.

This isn't an argument that people with 100 jumps can somehow be safe on a Katana at 1.7 but rather the more common person at 300 jumps that's thinking about a Crossfire or a Samurai at 1.4 that is current, has a couple of canopy courses under their belt, but somehow always ends up being the "bad guy" in the Safety and Training forum.

Really man, if you want to preach, show up to church and people will listen. For someone who used to jump like a 60-something sq ft canopy at a 5000+ft MSL DZ you sure like to whine about other people's choices.

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when in doubt... hook it!