kosanke 0 #26 July 19, 2005 i noticed your home dz is tenn skydiving center. talk to mike mullins. loads of experience and he'll get you there in less than 8 mins. 7 mins if you don't talk. i believe he will be at WFFC this year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #27 July 20, 2005 Quotei noticed your home dz is tenn skydiving center. talk to mike mullins. loads of experience and he'll get you there in less than 8 mins. 7 mins if you don't talk. i believe he will be at WFFC this year. Yep.. if I were to do a high alti jump at Mike's dropzone I'm sure he'd be the one doing the briefing.. but he doesnt own TN Skydiving Center. His dz is West TN Skydiving. We're not doing these jumps at a TN dropzone anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #28 July 20, 2005 QuoteI'm looking for an article on high altitude jumps. Risk, preparations, things that can happen that wouldnt normally happen on regular skydives.. etc. Basically, trying to educate a low timer who wants to make a high alti jump. Kitty, PM mjosparky. He's done a bunch of high alti stuff and may be able to help. Zig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HardCorr 0 #29 July 22, 2005 Is there anywhere that does 60,000 ft jumps? Not sure if any planes could really get up there. How bout weather ballons? That'd be a neat experiment!The key to being a good teacher, is to be a good listener... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #30 July 22, 2005 It still points to 25k as the threat altitude, even in the pressurized vessel.Quote The threshold for DCS used to be 25K. Several organizations in the US that deal with DCS research have lowered it to 18K. I see everyone discussing hypoxia mostly. (I just wanted to interject that about DCS.) Anyone that does not religiously use supplemental oxygen during unpressurized flight above about 15K is asking for it. Also, any HALO jump (above FL180) organized by a competent outfit will have all jumpers prebreathing oxygen at "ground" level prior to takeoff. And a nasal cannula does not cut the mustard for prebreathe operations. It needs to be via a tight fitting aviators oxygen mask... Now back to regularly scheduled programming.. peace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #31 July 23, 2005 >Is there anywhere that does 60,000 ft jumps? You mean like for fun? It is _very_ difficult to go beyond about 45,000 feet without a pressure suit. (By 'very difficult' I mean you would likely die attempting it.) Above about 39,000 feet there just isn't enough ppO2 even in pure oxygen to compensate for the lower pressure. Even going to 39,000 is going to be difficult. Time of useful consciousness is around 15 seconds, so any interruption of O2 at all could be fatal. And there's the usual pre-breathing issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #32 July 23, 2005 Quote>Is there anywhere that does 60,000 ft jumps?Quote I guess I could borrow a full pressure suit.....I, ah, have a few friends in low places Buck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #33 July 23, 2005 QuoteAnyone that does not religiously use supplemental oxygen during unpressurized flight above about 15K is asking for it. Thank you. I was beginning to feel like I was banging my head against a wallQuotea nasal cannula does not cut the mustard for prebreathe operations. It needs to be via a tight fitting aviators oxygen mask... Oh, how sweet the sound of knowledge. Can I get a Hallejullah? Amen Brother"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bud8Fan 0 #34 July 23, 2005 Can you say WOW ? http://www.stratoquest.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #35 July 23, 2005 Quote The threshold for DCS used to be 25K. Several organizations in the US that deal with DCS research have lowered it to 18K. Which orgs? I'd like to find more information here. Quote Anyone that does not religiously use supplemental oxygen during unpressurized flight above about 15K is asking for it. Also, any HALO jump (above FL180) organized by a competent outfit will have all jumpers prebreathing oxygen at "ground" level prior to takeoff. And a nasal cannula does not cut the mustard for prebreathe operations. It needs to be via a tight fitting aviators oxygen mask... There's an awfully large number of jumps in the 20-22k range without, some to 24, and Bill has gone to 26. Doesn't seem that there had been a heavy price paid, and esp measured within the risk that jumping already presents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #36 July 24, 2005 Quotehttp://www.stratoquest.com/ Cheryl and I had a nice conversation about that and a few other things a few weeks ago while waiting for the airplane. There is so much more to it than just the jump. The TECH behind it and the use of bleeding edge is what she seemed most passionate about. She really is a pioneer."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beerlight 0 #37 July 25, 2005 QuoteWhich orgs? I'd like to find more information here. NASA, U.S. Air Force, and the (FAA is still in research.) QuoteThere's an awfully large number of jumps in the 20-22k range without, some to 24, and Bill has gone to 26. Doesn't seem that there had been a heavy price paid, and esp measured within the risk that jumping already presents. 20 -22K - minimal risk of DCS. Unless your in the climb for an extended time period. However, hypoxia is a real issue. 24K - considering the time of useful conciousness at this altitude is in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, I find it hard to believe anyone would not use supplemental O2. 26K - military has required for years that jumpers "prebreathe" and use a "bailout" oxygen assembly during freefall ops for jumps above 18K. There's something to be said about why they do that..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #38 July 25, 2005 QuoteIs there anywhere that does 60,000 ft jumps? Not sure if any planes could really get up there. How bout weather ballons? That'd be a neat experiment! At 60k you are approaching the temperature at which water boils at 98.6. So, if you've got a slight fever when you hit that altitude, even with oxygen to breath, you are running a high risk of becoming a mummy going that high. Nice thought, but PV=nRT would act against you. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bud8Fan 0 #39 July 26, 2005 It was 102 here the other day, you should of seen the ponds around here boiling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #40 July 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteIs there anywhere that does 60,000 ft jumps? Not sure if any planes could really get up there. How bout weather ballons? That'd be a neat experiment! At 60k you are approaching the temperature at which water boils at 98.6. So, if you've got a slight fever when you hit that altitude, even with oxygen to breath, you are running a high risk of becoming a mummy going that high. Nice thought, but PV=nRT would act against you. I think it's Clausius-Clapeyron that's against you. PV=nRT doesn't have much to say about boiling points. Molecules in a liquid are always trying to escape into the air as vapor, with a pressure called "vapor pressure"; and the barometric pressure keeps trying to squish them back into the water. Boiling occurs when the two forces are equal. That is, when the vapor pressure of the liquid equals the barometric pressure. The vapor pressure of blood at body temperature is 17.5 mmHg. In a standard atmosphere it occurs at about 26km. or 15.5 miles MSL.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #41 July 26, 2005 QuoteIt was 102 here the other day, you should of seen the ponds around here boiling. Your ponds are at 60,000ft MSL? Where do you live?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bud8Fan 0 #42 July 26, 2005 Guess I should of used the tongue instead of the wink. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #43 July 26, 2005 Quote 24K - considering the time of useful conciousness at this altitude is in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, I find it hard to believe anyone would not use supplemental O2. There is no question about supplemental O2. That's mandatory above 15k for passengers. But you spoke of the need for prebreathing and demand fed O2 and bailout bottles for above 18. It's no surprise that the military would do so. Their business is more life and death and the cost of using better equipment to gain higher lucidity can easily be justified. And if their needs require going a bit higher, the gear will be necessary, so it's beneficial to stick to one process for all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beerlight 0 #44 July 26, 2005 QuoteBut you spoke of the need for prebreathing and demand fed O2 and bailout bottles for above 18. I'll bend on that one. For me personally, I would have to HALO from 25K or above before I would "prebreathe" oxygen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beerlight 0 #45 July 26, 2005 Barometric pressure at 63,000 feet (Armstrong's line) is only 47 mm/Hg, which equals the partial pressure of water in the body. At this pressure, water begins to "boil" within the body as it changes into a gaseous vapor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #46 July 29, 2005 Above somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment)My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #47 July 29, 2005 QuoteAbove somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment) Ed Viesturs has just completed "The Fourteen". He has climbed the world's 14 highest peaks, all over 8000m high, WITHOUT OXYGEN. www.everestspeakersbureau.com/edviesturs.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #48 July 29, 2005 ah, but he spends over a month per trip! I wonder how many chances he has per year to attempt a 8k peak. Some of them have a single period per year, and with no guarantees that bad weather will win anyway. Getting 14 must have required quite the level of patience and commitment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #49 July 30, 2005 Does Ed skydive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #50 July 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteAbove somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment) Ed Viesturs has just completed "The Fourteen". He has climbed the world's 14 highest peaks, all over 8000m high, WITHOUT OXYGEN. www.everestspeakersbureau.com/edviesturs.htm Whats your point? We are discussing skydiving, not climbing. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
LouDiamond 1 #33 July 23, 2005 QuoteAnyone that does not religiously use supplemental oxygen during unpressurized flight above about 15K is asking for it. Thank you. I was beginning to feel like I was banging my head against a wallQuotea nasal cannula does not cut the mustard for prebreathe operations. It needs to be via a tight fitting aviators oxygen mask... Oh, how sweet the sound of knowledge. Can I get a Hallejullah? Amen Brother"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bud8Fan 0 #34 July 23, 2005 Can you say WOW ? http://www.stratoquest.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #35 July 23, 2005 Quote The threshold for DCS used to be 25K. Several organizations in the US that deal with DCS research have lowered it to 18K. Which orgs? I'd like to find more information here. Quote Anyone that does not religiously use supplemental oxygen during unpressurized flight above about 15K is asking for it. Also, any HALO jump (above FL180) organized by a competent outfit will have all jumpers prebreathing oxygen at "ground" level prior to takeoff. And a nasal cannula does not cut the mustard for prebreathe operations. It needs to be via a tight fitting aviators oxygen mask... There's an awfully large number of jumps in the 20-22k range without, some to 24, and Bill has gone to 26. Doesn't seem that there had been a heavy price paid, and esp measured within the risk that jumping already presents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #36 July 24, 2005 Quotehttp://www.stratoquest.com/ Cheryl and I had a nice conversation about that and a few other things a few weeks ago while waiting for the airplane. There is so much more to it than just the jump. The TECH behind it and the use of bleeding edge is what she seemed most passionate about. She really is a pioneer."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #37 July 25, 2005 QuoteWhich orgs? I'd like to find more information here. NASA, U.S. Air Force, and the (FAA is still in research.) QuoteThere's an awfully large number of jumps in the 20-22k range without, some to 24, and Bill has gone to 26. Doesn't seem that there had been a heavy price paid, and esp measured within the risk that jumping already presents. 20 -22K - minimal risk of DCS. Unless your in the climb for an extended time period. However, hypoxia is a real issue. 24K - considering the time of useful conciousness at this altitude is in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, I find it hard to believe anyone would not use supplemental O2. 26K - military has required for years that jumpers "prebreathe" and use a "bailout" oxygen assembly during freefall ops for jumps above 18K. There's something to be said about why they do that..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #38 July 25, 2005 QuoteIs there anywhere that does 60,000 ft jumps? Not sure if any planes could really get up there. How bout weather ballons? That'd be a neat experiment! At 60k you are approaching the temperature at which water boils at 98.6. So, if you've got a slight fever when you hit that altitude, even with oxygen to breath, you are running a high risk of becoming a mummy going that high. Nice thought, but PV=nRT would act against you. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bud8Fan 0 #39 July 26, 2005 It was 102 here the other day, you should of seen the ponds around here boiling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #40 July 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteIs there anywhere that does 60,000 ft jumps? Not sure if any planes could really get up there. How bout weather ballons? That'd be a neat experiment! At 60k you are approaching the temperature at which water boils at 98.6. So, if you've got a slight fever when you hit that altitude, even with oxygen to breath, you are running a high risk of becoming a mummy going that high. Nice thought, but PV=nRT would act against you. I think it's Clausius-Clapeyron that's against you. PV=nRT doesn't have much to say about boiling points. Molecules in a liquid are always trying to escape into the air as vapor, with a pressure called "vapor pressure"; and the barometric pressure keeps trying to squish them back into the water. Boiling occurs when the two forces are equal. That is, when the vapor pressure of the liquid equals the barometric pressure. The vapor pressure of blood at body temperature is 17.5 mmHg. In a standard atmosphere it occurs at about 26km. or 15.5 miles MSL.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #41 July 26, 2005 QuoteIt was 102 here the other day, you should of seen the ponds around here boiling. Your ponds are at 60,000ft MSL? Where do you live?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bud8Fan 0 #42 July 26, 2005 Guess I should of used the tongue instead of the wink. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #43 July 26, 2005 Quote 24K - considering the time of useful conciousness at this altitude is in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, I find it hard to believe anyone would not use supplemental O2. There is no question about supplemental O2. That's mandatory above 15k for passengers. But you spoke of the need for prebreathing and demand fed O2 and bailout bottles for above 18. It's no surprise that the military would do so. Their business is more life and death and the cost of using better equipment to gain higher lucidity can easily be justified. And if their needs require going a bit higher, the gear will be necessary, so it's beneficial to stick to one process for all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beerlight 0 #44 July 26, 2005 QuoteBut you spoke of the need for prebreathing and demand fed O2 and bailout bottles for above 18. I'll bend on that one. For me personally, I would have to HALO from 25K or above before I would "prebreathe" oxygen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beerlight 0 #45 July 26, 2005 Barometric pressure at 63,000 feet (Armstrong's line) is only 47 mm/Hg, which equals the partial pressure of water in the body. At this pressure, water begins to "boil" within the body as it changes into a gaseous vapor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #46 July 29, 2005 Above somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment)My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #47 July 29, 2005 QuoteAbove somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment) Ed Viesturs has just completed "The Fourteen". He has climbed the world's 14 highest peaks, all over 8000m high, WITHOUT OXYGEN. www.everestspeakersbureau.com/edviesturs.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #48 July 29, 2005 ah, but he spends over a month per trip! I wonder how many chances he has per year to attempt a 8k peak. Some of them have a single period per year, and with no guarantees that bad weather will win anyway. Getting 14 must have required quite the level of patience and commitment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #49 July 30, 2005 Does Ed skydive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #50 July 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteAbove somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment) Ed Viesturs has just completed "The Fourteen". He has climbed the world's 14 highest peaks, all over 8000m high, WITHOUT OXYGEN. www.everestspeakersbureau.com/edviesturs.htm Whats your point? We are discussing skydiving, not climbing. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kelpdiver 2 #43 July 26, 2005 Quote 24K - considering the time of useful conciousness at this altitude is in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, I find it hard to believe anyone would not use supplemental O2. There is no question about supplemental O2. That's mandatory above 15k for passengers. But you spoke of the need for prebreathing and demand fed O2 and bailout bottles for above 18. It's no surprise that the military would do so. Their business is more life and death and the cost of using better equipment to gain higher lucidity can easily be justified. And if their needs require going a bit higher, the gear will be necessary, so it's beneficial to stick to one process for all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #44 July 26, 2005 QuoteBut you spoke of the need for prebreathing and demand fed O2 and bailout bottles for above 18. I'll bend on that one. For me personally, I would have to HALO from 25K or above before I would "prebreathe" oxygen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #45 July 26, 2005 Barometric pressure at 63,000 feet (Armstrong's line) is only 47 mm/Hg, which equals the partial pressure of water in the body. At this pressure, water begins to "boil" within the body as it changes into a gaseous vapor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #46 July 29, 2005 Above somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment)My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #47 July 29, 2005 QuoteAbove somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment) Ed Viesturs has just completed "The Fourteen". He has climbed the world's 14 highest peaks, all over 8000m high, WITHOUT OXYGEN. www.everestspeakersbureau.com/edviesturs.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #48 July 29, 2005 ah, but he spends over a month per trip! I wonder how many chances he has per year to attempt a 8k peak. Some of them have a single period per year, and with no guarantees that bad weather will win anyway. Getting 14 must have required quite the level of patience and commitment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #50 July 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteAbove somewhere around 43,000 feet you will need positive pressure breathing equipment and around 63,000 feet you will need a full pressure suit. It is not a matter of using them if you have access to them, you will not survive without them. As for the “Time of useful consciousness” charts, they are based on a body at rest. If you have even a light work load, such as walking to the door, those times can be cut in half. Just because it has been done and will be done in the future does not mean it is the smart thing to do. Sparky This is what Beerlight is talking about. (see attachment) Ed Viesturs has just completed "The Fourteen". He has climbed the world's 14 highest peaks, all over 8000m high, WITHOUT OXYGEN. www.everestspeakersbureau.com/edviesturs.htm Whats your point? We are discussing skydiving, not climbing. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
