Exit protocol

[Witelli 0]

Being a newbie, I want to clear up the proper etiquette for exiting. Being that I still pull high (5,000) and our airport is huge, it's not really a problem for me now. However, when I pull lower and am visiting smaller DZ's, I need to make sure my spot is really good. If it's my turn and I look out and am not confident in the spot, what do I do? Remember, you could have 20 people behind you anxious as hell to get out. I might feel pressured to go anyway. Is is OK to pull higher than you had planned and told everyone? I don't think so. Should you wait at the door until you're ready? How do you handle this? Please answer this question in 2 scenarios. You don't like the spot because there's a potential you could fall through a cloud, or you feel that with the winds, you might not be able to get back to where you want to land, the DZ.

[NWFlyer 2]

Do a search on "exit order" and you'll find there are a lot of thoughts/theories on the topic.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=exit%20order&sb=score&mh=25

It's really not as much a matter of etiquette as it is a matter of safety and communication. Be clear and honest about your intended pull altitude and type of jump and discuss it with the other jumpers on the plane and/or the load organizer before you get on the plane.

As for spotting ... well, you'll get a lot of thoughts on that, I'm sure, from folks who have much more experience than me. For now, I'll just direct you to one thread, but you can probably do a search on that as well to get some thoughts. The one thing to remember is that you always have a choice whether or not to get out of the plane.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=873572

You're asking the right questions for going to a new DZ... when you show up somewhere, make sure that you get a thorough briefing, not only on the landing area, but also the DZ's approach to load order and spotting. You'll learn quite a bit there that will probably answer some of your questions.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[tombuch 0]

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If it's my turn and I look out and am not confident in the spot, what do I do? Remember, you could have 20 people behind you anxious as hell to get out. I might feel pressured to go anyway. Is is OK to pull higher than you had planned and told everyone? I don't think so. Should you wait at the door until you're ready? How do you handle this? Please answer this question in 2 scenarios. You don't like the spot because there's a potential you could fall through a cloud, or you feel that with the winds, you might not be able to get back to where you want to land, the DZ.

Gosh, that's an interesting set of questions. Your profile lists your home DZ in Long Island and says you have 14 jumps. I'm one of the S&TA's at a neighboring DZ (The Ranch) so I'll chat about our policy, but you need to understand that while every drop zone is unique, The Ranch is very, very, very unique.

The first rule of skydiving is to be safe. If you think a spot is too dangerous then don't get out. That rule applies at every drop zone, even those without rules.

The Ranch is famous for jumping through clouds. Big ones, little ones, tall ones, small ones. I hate that, but it happens. If you have a problem jumping through clouds then I'd suggest you evaluate the conditions on the ground and not get on the load when there are lots of clouds in the area. If it happens that you are in the door ready to jump, and the jump run will put you in a cloud, you can always step back and let others go ahead of you. Please make your decision quickly so the rest of the load has an opportunity to violate FAR's and place themselves and other air traffic at risk without blowing the spot. Once the load is empty you can talk to the pilot and if there are wide enough holes he/she should be willing to give you a quick second pass. The pilots won't like that, but they are pretty solid about taking care of our customers. If the clouds are really too big for you, you may of course ride the plane down.

On the cloud issue, keep in mind that jumping through a small isolated cloud is illegal, but not really dangerous. Jumping through a 6,000 foot wide hole may be legal, but it's usually not safe.

As for just not liking the spot...umm, I hate to say this, but with 14 jumps I'd be shocked if you even know how to spot. Heck, I regularly see people with hundreds of jumps who don't have a clue about spotting. That's especially true of jumpers from large turbine DZ's with big open landing areas where spotting isn't considered a big deal. Our pilots are great with GPS, and unless you are at the very end of a pass, you should get back. With that said, I'll repeat the first rule of skydiving...be safe. If you really don't like the spot, don't get out. If others want to get out, move away from the door quickly and let them go. Our pilots will probably be pissed that you didn't trust them, but they should be willing to get you back over an area that you are comfortable with.

As for opening high if the spot is too long...I like to talk with the folks behind me about that long before exit. If it looks like I'm going to be at the back of a pass I'll adjust my intended opening altitude at the early discussion stage. So, if I know I'll be number 18 I'll plan to open at 3,000 - 3,500 feet. If I'm first out I'll probably plan to open at 2,000 feet. Or, I'll adjust my opening for the people in front of me such that if you are in front and planning to open at 4,000, I'll also plan to open at 4,000, even if I'd rather get the extra freefall time. If things change while we are on jump run I'll know it as I look out the window while others are jumping, and I'll tell the folks behind me that we are long and I'm going to open at x,000 feet. I'll break off my jump early and then track off the flight line. Those altitude adjustment are pretty mild, generally limited to a bump-up of only 500 - 1,000 feet. If you do that, try to tell the folks behind you, and always track off the line of flight.

Since we usually build jump runs with belly flyers to freeflyers and big groups to small, the issues with spotting usually happen at the back of the pass with low-time jumpers, followed by tandems. Our tandem instructors should understand that they need to look out for those last customers on the pass, but too often the instructors are the ones yelling at the inexperienced jumpers to get the 'f' out. They can be pretty rude about it. The rudeness factor can be an issue for some people at The Ranch, but keep the first rule of skydiving in mind...be safe. Don't try to argue or discuss the spot with a hostile tandem instructor 'cause it's like teaching a pig to dance. Just move out of the way, quietly remind yourself the arrogant tandem instructor is a dick-wad, then seek a second pass from the pilot or enjoy the plane ride down.

In any case, if you have a problem with the spot, a pilot, or a tandem instructor, mention it to manifest and we'll try to resolve the issue. The tandem instructors know they are supposed to be kind to our guests and help the inexpereinced jumpers as best they can, but sometimes that part of the job description is forgotten. It may also be that the spot was fine, and we can go over that with you too. Things are mellower on the ground and most of us are friendly (in a New York kind of way), so don't sweat it.

Umm, that's a lot of words. Sorry. The key thing to remember, always, is the first rule of skydiving...be safe.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[phoenixlpr 0]

Its funny to read your post. You have to demonstrate spotting for B license in Finland (~jump nr 40).

[tombuch 0]

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Its funny to read your post. You have to demonstrate spotting for B license in Finland (~jump nr 40).

Same in the United States to get an "A" license at 25 jumps. Unfortunately, with many drop zones using large turbine airplanes and GPS spotting, far too many students are never taught this important skill. I'd guess that of the 22 people on our Otter at any time, I'd trust about 7-8 to spot for me, and those would be old timers or AFF instructors. I hear from many of our mid-experienced jumpers (100-300 jumps) that they don't trust themselves to spot.

We are having the same problem with packing. That's a skill that I think our DZ has been doing a better job of teaching lately, but we still get graduates that don't trust their pack jobs and won't ever do it after they get out of the school.

Don't even get me started on the way we teach regulation, 'cause we don't. Ughhhhh!
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[phoenixlpr 0]

It was kind a fun to see 2 planes with GPS ( C207 & C208 ) flying in formation for dropping a 20 way RW group into a bad spot, side and downwind and most of the experienced and instructors were onboard. The off-landing rate was 5/22.

[riggerrob 562]

Good approach to an awkward question.
And this is the right place to ask it.
The key is making most of your decisions before you ever stick your head out the door.
Ask questions here.
At questions at the next DZ you visit.
Watch where the first load exits and watch where they land (off DZ hee hee?). Once you finish laughing, make a mental note about where to adjust the spot to avoid repeating their mistakes.
Speaking of mistakes, you want to avoid the classic mistake of - napping in the airplane - and not having a clue where you are until you have hung your head outside for 10 seconds.
When you finally get up in the air, fly with your eyes outside the window. Note local landmarks and how they can help you steer back to the DZ. Don't expect to absorb it all on your first flight, but after a few dozen jumps at the same DZ, you should be able to call "short jump run" before you ever hang your head out the door.

Plan your dive and dive your plan.

[Elisha 1]

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We are having the same problem with packing. That's a skill that I think our DZ has been doing a better job of teaching lately, but we still get graduates that don't trust their pack jobs and won't ever do it after they get out of the school.

Don't even get me started on the way we teach regulation, 'cause we don't. Ughhhhh!
.

[sarcasm]Isn't that your problem since you're the S&TA?
[/sarcasm]

Seriously, I'm sort of a guilty one wrt packing. I've jumped mine own around 15 or so times now, so feel comfortable, but my skills obviously aren't great. I can barely pack in under 30 min and my skill in getting it into the back is difficult. Haven't had even a line twist yet though! (on other peoples', different story)

If I was in your area, I'd probably love to jump there and through the clouds - I've only done it a couple of times.

[ChrisL 2]

I'm curious about the way you repeatedly emphasized the "instructor"
part of tandem instructor

Was this to tell the low timers that the tandem instructors know what they are taking about, was it meant to point out to the tandem instructors
that they are supposed to be providing guidance to the low timers, or was it meant to illustrate that the word "master" has been replaced with a better term with different implications?

__

My mighty steed

[tombuch 0]

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I'm curious about the way you repeatedly emphasized the "instructor"
part of tandem instructor

Was this to tell the low timers that the tandem instructors know what they are taking about, was it meant to point out to the tandem instructors
that they are supposed to be providing guidance to the low timers, or was it meant to illustrate that the word "master" has been replaced with a better term with different implications?

Number 2. The tandem instructors should be focused on students and customers. Instead, they tend to focus on factory style rides, and making the next back to back load. It isn't fair to say that of all of our tandem instructors, but it does seem to be a problem recognized by many of the regular jumpers. Of course that's not just a problem at my DZ, but at other as well.

I'd like to say that all of our staff are customer focused, and if you have a problem with the spot you can simply ask for help, but that's not the case.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[kelpdiver 2]

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So, if I know I'll be number 18 I'll plan to open at 3,000 - 3,500 feet. If I'm first out I'll probably plan to open at 2,000 feet.

Tom - I was curious about this. Are you adjusted your altitude for your opening position relative to the LZ, or more for the opening altitudes of those near you in the exit order?

I'm much more concerned with getting back from a short position (exit 1) than long (18), where the wind and my big canopy work well together.

Of course, I guess it's a given with you in the first slot you won't be starting the jump run early. Seems like the hardest spot to do - if you take too long it's hard for the load to get out on the pass, but I know I've seen the pilot light the green light too early.

[tombuch 0]

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Tom - I was curious about this. Are you adjusted your altitude for your opening position relative to the LZ, or more for the opening altitudes of those near you in the exit order?

Both. I like to open at around 2,000 - 2,500 feet. I have an original Saber 120 that opens fast, so the lower opening altitudes are fine for me.

If I'm deep in the order I know the spot will be long, so I want a bit of extra altitude to fly back, and will usually plan on 3,500 or so. Plus, the folks who usually get out late in the order generally open high so it works out if I do too. On those rare passes where the jump run begins downwind of the DZ I'll usually open at 2,500 and be fine.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Witelli 0]

Thanks a lot Tom, you're always full of great info, I totally respect your experience. You're right that I really don't know how to spot. All I really would try to do is look straight down and assuming ground winds, I'd like to leave the plane upwind of anywhere on the DZ. I wouldn't have a clue how to spot unless I was looking straight down and I can't do that until it's my turn. It would probably take me longer to register what I'm seeing given my experience and I don't want to sit there contemplating and pissing people off. So to be honest with you I just go when it's my turn. I really like to understand things for myself. There just seems to be a lot of pressure when everyone is going out the door and I don't want to be the one to delay everything. By the way, our instructors are awesome, always looking out. My question was prompted when I was on a CASA load full of funjumpers and it was decided I should go last. I got a bit nervous. I thought LAST=FAR. But it worked out perfectly since winds were going pretty good and I got out way upwind. I just want to figure out this stuff for myself. Thanks again for all of your useful info.

[Frenchy68 0]

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All I really would try to do is look straight down and assuming ground winds, I'd like to leave the plane upwind of anywhere on the DZ

In most Dropzones I believe (not all of them though), jumprun is into the uppers, which may be blowing in a different direction than "ground" winds. Something to keep in mind. Ask the pilot (or manifest).

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Witelli 0]

I figured upper winds would come up. But even if you knew the winds at all altitudes, how can you possibly calculate that in your head, meaning your horizontal movement in freefall and winds under canopy relative to the exit point and desired landing spot before you even leave the plane? I'm probably overthinking this as I do everything.

[tombuch 0]

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I figured upper winds would come up. But even if you knew the winds at all altitudes, how can you possibly calculate that in your head, meaning your horizontal movement in freefall and winds under canopy relative to the exit point and desired landing spot before you even leave the plane? I'm probably overthinking this as I do everything.

You are overthinking it, but not by much. You should understand the concept and be able to calculate a precise exit point based on a winds aloft forecast. In the real world we use a lot of "thumbnail calculations," but that is based on a technical understanding of drift. Overthinking the process now gives you the understanding and foundation to "wing it" later.

I can calculate a precise exit point that, given the forecasted winds, that would be perfect, but in reality, the winds are never as forecasted, and we use a wide range of exit points along an extended wind line. In time you will understand how to assess the accuracy of the winds forecast, and how much margin for error you can build into the jumprun calculation. You will also understand the differing effect of wind on freefall and canopy drift, and be able to add changing winds into your thumbnail calculation.

I often complain on this site and elsewhere because so many instructors fail to teach spotting and wind calculation, but part of that problem is students who don't want to learn. Your efforts to "overthink" the issue are applauded because they indicate an interest in understanding the process. Stick with it.

Check out the following:
http://skydivetheranch.com/spotting.htm This is from the student area of The Ranch web site. I didn't write it, but recommend it as a beginning point for understanding wind drift calculations.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Witelli 0]

Awesome. Thanks again, I'm sure It'll all come together with time as does everything.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Make people do a dozen jumps on round parachutes. They'll learn to spot in a hurry.

I bet you remember those days, hiking back in.

[popsjumper 2]

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Make people do a dozen jumps on round parachutes. They'll learn to spot in a hurry.

I bet you remember those days, hiking back in.

Ahhh...brings back memories...spotting as an art along with PLF training...forward AND backward.....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rasmack 0]

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... All I really would try to do is look straight down...

That is not as easy as it sounds. A lot of people tend to align with the aircraft instead of the horizon. In the beginning you may misjudge your position by many hundreds of feet.

Btw don't anyone throw streamers over there? I had to throw a few and jump on my own spot with an instructor laughing at me. I wasn't cleared to jump without jumpmaster until I could do it correctly and correct for whatever the streamer showed.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Jeth 0]

I don't know squat, but I just wanted to tell you I was as overwhelmed with it all as you are when I was just off student status. With time you'll figure out your comfort zone. I still don't know how to spot based on uppers and ground speed (was never really taught much), but I do know if I am comfortable getting out or not. A couple things from my measy experience:

For me, clouds are not a big deal unless they are a thick layer all the way across the sky. I have jumped through thin or puffy clouds several times, and its not a big deal. But they have to be up high enough so that I'm through them before I open. I also need to be able to see the ground when I exit. (Our pilots are great about finding holes for us.) One time when we were at about 12 grand I looked out and couldn't see anything but white. I told myself I was not going to go with it like that. But the pilot circled around, climbed a little higher, and when we hit 14 grand the clouds had parted and I could see the dz below, so we went.

You mentioned you were worried about being out last. At my dz, they do jump run into the wind. So I would probably be better off if I'm out last rather than first. I am very lightly loaded under my canopy, so if I am downwind at all, it can be hard for me to get back. If I am upwind, I can just ride it in. Also when you're a rookie you are pulling higher so U have more time to get back. Of course, the jump run could be too long. But I've been out last on some jumps when the airport looked so far away, and I still made it back.
But when I'm doing RW, I'm usually first out. If I am the one by the door, I look out when the door light comes on, and make sure we are near the airport. My lame/newbie rule for myself is if I can see the airport in the vicinity, I'll go. But we have great pilots and usually we're right on top of it.

Anyway, that is just how another rookie at a turbine/gps dz does it. If you can learn better than the rest of us how to truly spot, I'm sure you'd be better off!
Oh, one other thing -- if you are not comfortable jumping, just step aside and let the next group go. Its your ass up there so don't be pressured into anything you're not comfortable with.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[Witelli 0]

What do you mean by streamers? Never heard that before.

[gemini 0]

Wind Drift Indicators usually made of cloth or paper that are thrown from the plane over the dz. The plane circles and (old days) the jumpmaster would watch the streamer so he could set the jump run.

Today we just let the first load jump out over the dz and watch where they land before we adjust the spot for the 2nd load. There are some colorful names for the guys on the 1st load.

Blue skies,

Jim

[Witelli 0]

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Oh, one other thing -- if you are not comfortable jumping, just step aside and let the next group go. Its your ass up there so don't be pressured into anything you're not comfortable with.

I guess this might be the meat of my question. If I pass on my turn, where does that leave me? I would think I would have to go last then. Since I wouldn't want to screw anything up. Since getting out at a different time would throw everything off with openings and separation and stuff I'm not too keen on yet. So, if you pass your turn, try to go last, if you don't like it, ride the airplane down. Is that correct?

[Witelli 0]

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess they would call those first load guys "Streamers"