D jump requirements - USPA

[nigel99 151]

The night jump requirements have generated debate on 1 specific aspect of the D license. How about we widen the debate and try and lose the semantics of the other thread.

What do you believe should be added to the D license to raise the bar?

I think that requiring a specialisation, with an appropriate level of achievement would be good. I don't think it is necessary for everyone to have wingsuited, swooped, CRW, RW etc for the license.

Also following Australia with an E and F license would be an option. In fact I would like to see the D kept at 500, but add an E at 1000 and an F at 2000+.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Ron 7]

I think that to get a "D" License you should have to show some level of proficiency in more than one thing.

For example two of the below:
* Instructor rating (Coach or higher)
* Competition exp.
* 8pt 4way or 4pt 8way RW
* 4pt VRW
* CRW 4 stack
* Wing Suit flock 4 or larger
* 50 way or larger RW
* PRO rating
* Style set in less than 10 seconds

Just threw those out as examples.

I also think that a cutaway should be required.
I think the night jumps should remain.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I agree with Ron's approach about demonstration of some degree of competence in a couple of disciplines. I suppose that some swoopy stuff could be added to Ron's list.

Regarding the poll... I don't consider SCR to be relevant to a D-license. Most new jumpers at my DZ earn that on their first weekend off student status.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[rehmwa 2]

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I think that to get a "D" License you should have to show some level of proficiency in more than one thing.

For example two of the below:
* Instructor rating (Coach or higher)
* Competition exp.
* 8pt 4way or 4pt 8way RW
* 4pt VRW
* CRW 4 stack
* Wing Suit flock 4 or larger
* 50 way or larger RW
* PRO rating
* Style set in less than 10 seconds
Just threw those out as examples.

this is a good idea for a LOT of reasons - and I'd say 3 or 4 items

for that matter, I'd like to see demonstrated proficiency in multiple disciplines be a pre-req for instructor ratings too.



however - "GoPro experience" and "low jump number swooping" should not be on the list

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 24]

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I think that to get a "D" License you should have to show some level of proficiency in more than one thing.

For example two of the below:
* Instructor rating (Coach or higher)
* Competition exp.
* 8pt 4way or 4pt 8way RW
* 4pt VRW
* CRW 4 stack
* Wing Suit flock 4 or larger
* 50 way or larger RW
* PRO rating
* Style set in less than 10 seconds
Just threw those out as examples.

this is a good idea for a LOT of reasons

for that matter, I'd like to see demonstrated proficiency in multiple disciplines be a pre-req for instructor ratings too.

The CSPA CoP proficiencies have been set up like that for about 15 years (at least).

Remster

[DSE 3]

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I think that to get a "D" License you should have to show some level of proficiency in more than one thing.

For example two of the below:
* Instructor rating (Coach or higher)
* Competition exp.
* 8pt 4way or 4pt 8way RW
* 4pt VRW
* CRW 4 stack
* Wing Suit flock 4 or larger
* 50 way or larger RW
* PRO rating
* Style set in less than 10 seconds

Just threw those out as examples.

I also think that a cutaway should be required.
I think the night jumps should remain.

Most of what you proffer makes sense, except for PRO before D when D is required for PRO.
And night jumps.

I'd add:
* Night RW/Wingsuit
* Two accuracy jumps within 12" of target
* Smoke jump
* 4 or more differing types of aircraft and related exits.
* Completed Canopy Proficiency card
* 2 Twilight jump; no lighted landing area.

[beowulf 1]

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I think that to get a "D" License you should have to show some level of proficiency in more than one thing.

For example two of the below:
* Instructor rating (Coach or higher)
* Competition exp.
* 8pt 4way or 4pt 8way RW
* 4pt VRW
* CRW 4 stack
* Wing Suit flock 4 or larger
* 50 way or larger RW
* PRO rating
* Style set in less than 10 seconds

Just threw those out as examples.

I also think that a cutaway should be required.
I think the night jumps should remain.

The "* 4pt VRW" is probably the most difficult example in your list. Especially if it were a 4pt 4 way VFS! With out any tunnel it would take probably a 1000 jumps to achieve. Depending on the person.

[billvon 2,470]

>I think that to get a "D" License you should have to show some level of proficiency in
>more than one thing.

Agreed. I think I would make two lists.

List A would be a list of (say) eight requirements, all of which must be met. Instructor rating, night training, water training (maybe make it live), competition experience in anything, demo experience, accuracy requirements, perhaps even basic aircraft flight instruction (a 2 hour familiarization flight.) Maybe add Kallend's "twilight jump" training. All requirements intended to add to lifesaving and judgment skills.

List B would be a list of say ten requirements, of which five have to be met. These would be the specialized skill category, like wingsuit flight or CRW. These are the cool-to-haves but not essential from the point of view of safety.

[theonlyski 3]

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>I think that to get a "D" License you should have to show some level of proficiency in
>more than one thing.

Agreed. I think I would make two lists.

List A would be a list of (say) eight requirements, all of which must be met. Instructor rating, night training, water training (maybe make it live), competition experience in anything, demo experience, accuracy requirements, perhaps even basic aircraft flight instruction (a 2 hour familiarization flight.) Maybe add Kallend's "twilight jump" training. All requirements intended to add to lifesaving and judgment skills.

List B would be a list of say ten requirements, of which five have to be met. These would be the specialized skill category, like wingsuit flight or CRW. These are the cool-to-haves but not essential from the point of view of safety.

While I actually like that plan, not everyone is cut out for, want to be, or SHOULD be an instructor/ competitor or demonstrator.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Remster 24]

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While I actually like that plan, not everyone is cut out for, want to be, or SHOULD be an instructor/ competitor or demonstrator.

Then they wouldn't be considered "expert" skydivers.

Remster

[theonlyski 3]

The license as I understand it, doesn't say 'expert' anymore...

Also, some people do this as a weekend thing, not able to ditch their jobs for extended periods for rating courses, competitions or weekday demos.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Remster 24]

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The license as I understand it, doesn't say 'expert' anymore...

Also, some people do this as a weekend thing, not able to ditch their jobs for extended periods for rating courses, competitions or weekday demos.

Well, call it whatever you want, it's the upmost license you can get.

So, if those people with "Real" jobs cant get those requirements, they dont get that license. So what?


PS: I've always had a "Real" job and skydiving was always a weekend thing for me, but managed to get ratings for Coach 1, Coach 2, Instructor A and PFF in Canada, along with participation in 2 (or 3, cant remember) Canadian Nationals, 2 provincials, and now 1 US nationals. If I really wanted that D and I needed some of those things to happen for it, I would have made the time.

Remster

[billvon 2,470]

>While I actually like that plan, not everyone is cut out for, want to be, or SHOULD
>be an instructor/ competitor or demonstrator.

Agreed. Not everyone should get this license, either.

[Ron 7]

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The "* 4pt VRW" is probably the most difficult example in your list. Especially if it were a 4pt 4 way VFS! With out any tunnel it would take probably a 1000 jumps to achieve. Depending on the person.

I was thinking more of a two way.... But then again, I am not a VRW guy.

I would add things like camera jumps as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Also, some people do this as a weekend thing, not able to ditch their jobs for extended periods for rating courses, competitions or weekday demos.

I am a weekend jumper and have:
AFFI, SLI, TI.
Been to 10 nationals with medals in open 8way, int 8way, advanced 4way, int 4way, 16 way and 10 way.
I have a PRO rating and about 100 demos.
Flown video for teams and tandems.
Been on a 110 way.
Have a National Record in 16way.

So, it is very possible to be a weekend jumper and do a bunch of stuff. No, you may not do it in a couple of years, but this should not be a race.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Quote

Also, some people do this as a weekend thing, not able to ditch their jobs for extended periods for rating courses, competitions or weekday demos.

I am a weekend jumper and have:
AFFI, SLI, TI.
Been to 10 nationals with medals in open 8way, int 8way, advanced 4way, int 4way, 16 way and 10 way.
I have a PRO rating and about 100 demos.
Flown video for teams and tandems.
Been on a 110 way.
Have a National Record in 16way.

So, it is very possible to be a weekend jumper and do a bunch of stuff. No, you may not do it in a couple of years, but this should not be a race.

And during that, were you not having to take time off of work?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[wmw999 2,168]

I agree with Ron. I'm not sure just how many different discipline-specific things should be part, but 3 or 4 sounds about right.

I've managed to accumulate some instructional ratings (now expired), did some CRW, plenty of RW, have taken pictures of others in freefall, the famous water jump, enough accuracy to get a D license with a round, etc.

They're not asking for extreme mastery - maybe it's really just enough to know how hard it actually is to do some of those other disciplines really well.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Remster 24]

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And during that, were you not having to take time off of work?

Yes. And? I still dont get your point. The top most license of the USPA (or whatever other body) should not be easy to get. Again: you dont have to get that license. So if you wan't want to, dont take the 3 days off it takes to compete in 4way one year, and then the 2 days off to get that coach rating the next.

Remster

[Ron 7]

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And during that, were you not having to take time off of work?

In 18 years maybe 5-6 weeks total.
Not a whole lot of time over 18 years

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Deisel 37]

Thanks for starting a new thread. I’m all for making the D more difficult to get, but as mentioned previously, there should not be a D requirement to be a TI. If an individual meets the manufacturer’s requirements why does USPA place an additional burden on them of getting a D?

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[AndyMan 7]

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And during that, were you not having to take time off of work?

In 18 years maybe 5-6 weeks total.
Not a whole lot of time over 18 years

And Ron is hardly unique, either. While working full time, I've accomplished similar goals including AFFI, TM, PRO, Rigger, Multiple US Nationals, video for teams and tandems, multiple 100-ways. The most I've ever taken off for skydiving is 2 days to make a long weekend.

I agree the USPA D License should mean something. If you're going to be claiming the top-most license in the sport, you'd better have an interesting skydiving resume to back it up.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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>While I actually like that plan, not everyone is cut out for, want to be, or SHOULD
>be an instructor/ competitor or demonstrator.

Agreed. Not everyone should get this license, either.

Not everyone does now.

[wolfriverjoe 1,368]

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The license as I understand it, doesn't say 'expert' anymore...

Also, some people do this as a weekend thing, not able to ditch their jobs for extended periods for rating courses, competitions or weekday demos.

It doesn't say "expert", but as the top license available, it certainly is implied.

Ratings courses are not usually "extended periods" AFAIK. If someone isn't willing to spend a week's worth of vacation for this, then I'm going to question their dedication to the sport.

I think an instructor rating of some sort should be required. If you don't know the sport well enough to teach it to others, then I don't see that you've earned a top license.

Competitions doesn't automatically mean "Nationals" or "Collegiates" either. There are lots of local competitions that I'd think would meet the requirements BillVon is suggesting. I think he is looking more at the willingness to put in the training time, dedication to improvement and teamwork that being part of a competition team involves.

"Demo" doesn't automatically mean stadiums or weekday. I've ground-crewed a couple that were open-field, weekend stuff. Not even PRO required. But the need for good judgement, accuracy and professional behavior were still there.

I really like the idea of a list of required stuff, and then a minimum number of cross discipline stuff to produce a skydiver who is comfortable in a variety of situations. Perhaps one canopy-specific (CReW, Accuracy or Swooping) some sort of belly (Big ways, mid-sized sequential or competitive 4 way) and some kind of "specialty" (wingsuit, freefly, freestyle, or ???).

Of course, this isn't going to happen. Too many people want it easier, not harder. And the BOD has too much other stuff on it's plate to seriously consider this sort of thing.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,470]

>There are lots of local competitions that I'd think would meet the requirements
>BillVon is suggesting.

Yeah, any organized national or regional event with USPA rated judges. An SSL meet would qualify out here for example. The objective isn't to get them to be top competitors - it would be to give them some basic experience in how competitions are set up so they could both better understand the sport and give better advice to newer jumpers.

[Squeak 17]

i think you could toughen up your starcrest a little,
Here nin OZ it's 3 jumps in an 8 -10 way docking 5th or later in a controled manner

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
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