HeatherB 0 #26 March 5, 2003 QuoteBrian's system is a great system and we're actually implementing it at my DZ for students/low time jumpers. Playing devil's advocate here.... Brian's system is great, but you don't follow it yourself, right? Why not? If Brian's system is so great why are you not jumping something with a less than a 1.4. wingload? Or, do you not consider yourself a "low-time jumper?" 1.7:1 with 370 jumps...well beyond what most, including Brian, would deem reasonable. (Yes, I'm picking on you, but I only b/c I like you and I care) blue skies, devil's advocate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #27 March 5, 2003 Hi, Right and wrong. Everyone has to obey the rules, but the rules only are in effect when the jumper change category. I'll continue now in dutch (sorry for the english speaking) Het BVR artikel 501, lid 10: Lid 10: De sportparachutist, die wil gaan springen met een parachute uit een hogere ervaringscategorie, dan de parachute waarmee hij tot op dat moment heeft gesprongen, mag dat alleen indien hij voldoet aan de daarvoor in BVR bijlage A gestelde criteria.. Saskia zal in dit geval (de stilleto 120) niet met een hogere categorie gaan springen dan ze nu al doet.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #28 March 5, 2003 QuoteSo you going to go back up to something in the 1.4 range? If not is'nt that like calling the kettle black? Nope and yup. I've also spent a lot of money getting a lot of canopy coaching. Its not fool proof due to lack of general experience, but it could be worst.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #29 March 5, 2003 Quote Saskia zal in dit geval (de stilleto 120) niet met een hogere categorie gaan springen dan ze nu al doet. Yeah, well, all that is moot, as I'm not even allowed to jump a Lightning 126 anywhere in the near future categories or no, a Stiletto 120 would definately be out of the question... Note: I don't even want to jump one, so relax ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #30 March 5, 2003 You shouldn't concentrate on the list of canopies to much. It's only a first list and, as mentioned in my fipo it should be update regulary, at least once a year. I personally think the Spark should be beside the sabre (1) and a triathlon should be beside the spectre. Currently the sabre2 is thought of as a crossing between the stilletto and a sabre, and it is judge accordingly. When needed this can be adjusted whenever the list is updated. Also the spectre is considered the be a good starter canopy, but not suited for the first jumps, that's why it's a cat II canopy (25 jumps and more). This specific set of rules seems poorly thought out, poorly constructed, and is being poorly implemented. Ok, I know it's not US made, but aren't you a little harsh here ? It's been in the making for over a year, there were 2 national input day (mandatory for every1 holding an instruction license) and it has been implemented last weekend, so I it's a little early to judge that factor... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sandi 0 #31 March 5, 2003 I just want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. I have 300 jumps, all in less than a year. The 109 I currently jump at 1.2 falls into the correct wingloading. But since the minimum canopy size for this category is 150, I'd be stuck with a .88 loading until 500 jumps!?! Umm, I don't think so! This puts lighter skydivers at a disadvantage as far as improving their canopy skills. Most smaller women can't turn with their risers at low wingloadings. So that limits how much they can learn, and can also be a safety issue because they can't quickly turn after opening. It's also safer/easier to land going forward than going backward or straight down. Lighter jumpers will be more limited by wind conditions. This could discourage people. If they go to the dz every weekend and never get to jump because it's too windy for such a low loading, they may just stop going to the dz. I'm not saying this guideline is bad, but it may be better used as just that, a guideline. It doesn't take into account that not everyone is the same size. Wingloading is only one consideration in choice of canopy size. A suggestion would be to categorize further by weight groups. I'm not an advocate of downsizing quickly, but keeping a segment of skydivers at basically a student wingloading for 500 jumps isn't beneficial either. I think the issue of downsizing involves many, many different factors and each case is very individual. I'm glad those of us in the US get to enjoy less regulation than some other countries! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katecooper 0 #32 March 5, 2003 Greetings, DZ Denizens; What a great list. Thanks to Saskia for printing it here. I've often wondered how some of the foreign canopies performed compared to canopies I'm more familiar with. While the list may not be perfect, this certainly gives me a good starting point for comparing canopies and wingloadings. Also, for all the grumbling on wingloadings, I'd say that the vast majority of jumpers (yes, even you--gentle readers) are using canopies at too great a wingloading for their current experience. I've found that the "Peter Principal" of canopies is to size down until you find the canopy you can not land consistently in a safe manner, and then crow with pleaseure that you finally have the "right" canopy and that you'll no doubt "grow into it" in time. I'm a cat V jumper and I quite happily am jumping Cat IV and Cat III canopies although I have experience in Cat V wings as well. My wingloading is Cat IV to Cat V (depending on whether I'm wearing weights or not) I'm here for the long run. How about you? :-) Good job, Netherlands, for putting together this information. kate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #33 March 5, 2003 A number of factors have led to the 170 sq feet minimum. Most important 2: 1) a 120 sq feet flies ALOT faster at 1.2 then a 170 sq feet at 1.2 2) It's very rare to find someone in the Netherlands that only weighs (body weight) 105 pounds.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #34 March 5, 2003 Quote It's becoming abundantly clear that dz's can not be trusted to push lower time jumpers into picking appropriate gear. I agree that it would be nice if DZs would try to enforce some standard of control, but let's be honest, the problem is with the people selling the canopies to individual jumpers. So we blame the dealers, but, the ones we really need to consider are the trunk-dealers with no overhead to cover and no misgivings about selling anything to anyone. MOST reputable shops will do their best to sell the jumper what they need, not what they want. But in order to keep the lights on (especially in this world where you can ALWAYS find something cheaper on-line) a shop is forced to bend to try and keep their doors open. Why is it more expensive to buy from a shop? Do you think those sewing machines are free? How about the wages to keep someone on staff who knows what the hell they're talking about, not just what the print ads say? What do you get for your money? Experience and the solidarity of knowing that shop will be there to help you in the future, because you supported it with your business. I can't tell you how hard it is to deal, day in and day out, with people coming in with some on-line quote for gear that simply blows us out of the water. Not that this "company" has ever had contact with the potential buyer they gave the quote to, nor do they care in most cases. But this is business, so screw morality, just sell the damn products! Right? You basically get chastised for trying to guide someone in the right direction because, "They're adults and make up their own mind about what they want to fly" then you get laughed at when you quote them...even when you explain the extended service they gain from working with a reputable shop and the help they'll have if/when something goes wrong with their gear and it needs to be fixed or sent back. Then you get yelled at when you won't bend over backwards to fix their broken equipment, that they didn't buy from you, on Friday afternoon at 4PM! If you want to blame someone, blame the folks selling out of their trunks, cutting the margins down to nothing and not caring who they sell to in order to make $50. Be part of the solution, people, not part of the problem. Shops exist to be there to service you and your gear for the years to come in your skydiving career...don't run them out of business by buying from some 'dude' and saving $100...That's enough, I'll get off my soapbox now...... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sandi 0 #35 March 5, 2003 Quote1) a 120 sq feet flies ALOT faster at 1.2 then a 170 sq feet at 1.2. I absolutely agree with this statement. I tell people that all the time when I hear smaller people wanting to get a 120 or 135 at 50 jumps just because someone told them to have a 1.1 loading. And I did jump a 150 until I had 100 jumps, then jumped a 135 and 120 for the next 200 jumps. I'm just saying that there are people who do have low exit weights and keeping them at under 1.0 loadings until 500 jumps isn't helping them learn. Quote2) It's very rare to find someone in the Netherlands that only weighs (body weight) 105 pounds. It's probably not as rare as you think. Actually I weigh 110 pounds and my gear weighs 22 lbs. Yes, that includes everything. Smaller people have smaller rigs, helmets, shoes etc. so it adds up to less. Of course if I had to jump a 150 I'd have a larger rig, so the loading would be a little higher. There are probably more lighter people than you think. I'm light because I'm short, I'm certainly not super skinny. Anyway, even if it is rare, what about those few rare people? I know a lot of people who weigh under 110 pounds. Shouldn't they be taken into consideration in the regulation. A good portion of women skydivers do have lower exit weights may be adversely affected by these regulations. Just looking out for the small people out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #36 March 5, 2003 The few sadly have to suffer, but in 6 years time I never met some1 in the skydive communitee in The Netherlands who would suffer.... Don't forget average height is aprox. 5 feet 12 for women here.... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sandi 0 #37 March 5, 2003 okay, okay, I do realize that I'm smaller that average. I'm just hoping that if by chance there is a 100 pound jumper there that you might make an exception for her after watching her go backwards under a 150 for a couple hundred jumps. I'm going to keep jumping my 109 and be damn happy that I'm allowed to do so! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #38 March 5, 2003 Quote The few sadly have to suffer, but in 6 years time I never met some1 in the skydive communitee in The Netherlands who would suffer.... Don't forget average height is aprox. 5 feet 12 for women here.... Paul, What about Sveta and Claudia..? Don't know what YOU consider small, but.... well..... They both have a WL ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #39 March 5, 2003 I didn't say we don't have any light jumpers, just said no1 would really suffer... get my drift? The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #40 March 5, 2003 QuoteI'm just hoping that if by chance there is a 100 pound jumper there that you might make an exception for her after watching her go backwards under a 150 for a couple hundred jumps. 100 pound body weight, plus 20-odd pounds gear.. plus however much weight she's going to need to wear to stay down with the bigger folks - I'd figure that 100 pounder's exit weight at closer to 140. On a 170 that's about a .8 wingloading. I put over 300 jumps on canopies that I loaded at about .8. Did I back up a few times? Sure I did - when the winds were over about 12-15 mph. There's a real easy fix for that - stay on the ground when the winds pick up. High wind conditions aren't the best thing for a sub-100 jump novice to be landing in regardless of wingloading - and if you look around the dz on days like that you might be surprised to find some of the most experienced jumpers, who jump much higher wingloadings, staying on the ground too. Other than a couple of canopy rankings that I disagree with (Triathlon in Cat III but Spectre in Cat II), I think the guidelines posted here are great and I would love to see USPA come up with something similar (guidelines, not requirements). But, I'm a Cat IV jumper flying a Cat II canopy at a Cat II wingloading... like Kate said, I'm in this for the long run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #41 March 5, 2003 Well, we should look at this, and not bicker about what canopy is on what list. I think it should be done jump # to wingload just like Brian G says. TYPE of canopy does matter, but less I think than WINGLOAD. SIZE being a function that effects WINGLOAD. So I would have rules to govern wingload. It would be the first, and easiest step. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sandi 0 #42 March 5, 2003 QuoteHigh wind conditions aren't the best thing for a sub-100 jump novice to be landing in regardless of wingloading I agree. And I'm usually the one staying on the ground in high winds. My concern is the 100-500 jump category. There is a big difference in canopy skill between 100 and 500 jumps. I only have 300 jumps but I know my skills are a lot better now than they were at 100 jumps (and I'm not saying I'm an expert now, far from it). But should someone with 300-500 jumps have to have a loading under 1.0? As far as the extra weights go. Yes, I have to wear weights if I'm belly flying (which is rare) and if I am wearing weights I jump my 120 instead of my 109. I don't wear weights freeflying and have no problem keeping up with larger people. As I said I don't have a problem with the regulations for people under 100 jumps. I didn't have a loading over 1.0 until about 150 jumps. Lighter people are going to have much more responsiveness from a canopy at a lower loading. But being forced to have a .8 or .9 loading at 400 jumps just doesn't seem necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #43 March 5, 2003 Arent I a poster boy for this....Cat IV jupmer jumping a Cat IV canopy at a Cat IV wingload..... Guess Atair wont be able to market their canopy as a student/begineer one in the NL..... and yeah.. the Triatlon seams funny in a cat III... Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #44 March 5, 2003 I must say I enjoy this topic and even more happy that I all ready have my own gear ,so I can keep jumping it . Now for a new jumper yes it is a bad luck (maybe),they will really have to start and progress slowly (hopefully safely) then before those rules another question is what is the ruling if you jump a canopy which is two class above you´r class and you want to down-sizeAM67 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #45 March 5, 2003 As long as you don't go into a category wich is higher than your current category you're flying in now, you can downsize. Do remember that an instructor can always ground you anyways on article 501 part 1 of the Dutch Safety regulationsThe trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #46 March 5, 2003 Quote This specific set of rules seems poorly thought out, poorly constructed, and is being poorly implemented. Ok, I know it's not US made, but aren't you a little harsh here ? It's been in the making for over a year, there were 2 national input day (mandatory for every1 holding an instruction license) and it has been implemented last weekend, so I it's a little early to judge that factor... I'm not made in the US either, but my girlfriend probably agrees with you on that. If so many people had a hand in its design, it may be a case of TOO many people designing something. Unless the inconsistencies in that canopy list are sorted out quickly, I suspect they'll have a lot of pushback. That said, I do like the idea. Edited to add, I am a class 4 jumper, jumping a class 4 canopy, at a class 5 wingloading. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #47 March 5, 2003 Instead of basing it so much on jump numbers, maybe the jump number restricitions should be relaxed and it should work similar to the USPA licenses? There are licenses for freefall, why not canopy? Give out instructor ratings for canopy flight and have them administer tests to condidates that want to move up. And make sure that everything is waverable in special cases. I don't think an 85lbs person is made safer by forcing her to jump a student wingloading for 1000 jumps and then letting her downsize to a tiny x-braced. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #48 March 5, 2003 Quote I am a class 4 jumper, jumping a class 4 canopy, at a class 5 wingloading. I am a class 3 jumper, jumping a class 3 canopy, currently flying at a class 3 wing loading (but soon will be jumping something in between class 3 and class 4 wing loading). So I'm not as radical as some think? I'm just a class 3 type of guy ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #49 March 5, 2003 With a 85Lbs person I would question his/her medical examination.... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcin 0 #50 March 5, 2003 What is the Australian system? M. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
