USPA 0 #1 March 5, 2003 Hi everyone, In The Netherlands, a new canopy regulation has gone into effect. What are your opinions? Blue Ones Paul Renting RULES For Canopy choice In art. 501 of the dutch Safety Regulations, a new canopy regulation is introduced. It states that anyone who wants to jump with a certain canopy and by choice that canopy changes from one experience category to another one, has to obey certain rules. The rules are as follows: Every canopy is assigned to a certain category. This category is assigned based on type (see appendix), it’s size and also it’s wingload which it will have in combination with the jumper. The five categories are: I : assigned type; wingload max.1,1; size min. 170 sqft II : assigned type; wingload max.1,1; size min. 170 sqft III : assigned type; wingload max.1,3; size min. 150 sqft IV : assigned type; wingload max.1,5; size min. 120 sqft V : no limitations Jumpers are assigned to five experience categories. These categories are based on total number of jumps, but also de number of jumps in the last 12 months. I : Less than 25 jumps II : 25 to 100 jumps III : 100 to 500 jumps; At least 25 in the last 12 months IV : 500 to 1000 jumps; At least 50 in the last 12 months V : Over 1000 jumps; At least 100 jumps in the last 12 months A jumper, who wants to jump a canopy from category I, II, III, IV, or V is only allowed to jump that canopy if he, or she, at least is assigned to the appropriate experience category. For the type assignment of each (brand, type) canopy, the regulators are advised by a technical committee, which updates the list as many times as needed, but at least once a year. When a certain type hasn’t been assigned to a category (yet), it should be handled as an category V canopy. When a transition is made to a canopy assigned to a higher category, it is strongly advised to follow a canopy control program, like the one that is mandatory for the A or B license. (which I haven’t attached, but you can image a basic canopy control program), with the new canopy. The system is visualized in the “Dutch Bulls-eye” which is attached. Appendix: Categorie I: • Performance Designs: Navigator, PD F111 serie, Sabre • Parachutes de France: Prima, Drakkar, Turbo • Precision: Raven, Super Raven, Falcon • PISA: Skymaster • Paratec: Balans • Flight Concepts: Maverick, Fury, Firelite, Cricket, Startrac, Sharpshuter, Raider, Maverone, Clipper, Manta, Cruislite • NAA: Eagle 7 & 9 • Icarus: Student ZP7 • Chute Shop: Zepo Student Categorie II (wingload max 1.1, > 25 jumps) • Parachutes de France: Electra, Merit • Paratec: Super 7, Quadra • Performance Designs: Spectre, Silhouette • Precision: Synergy • Icarus: Omni Categorie III (wingload max 1.3, > 100 jumps) • Performance Designs: Sabre 2, Lightning • Precision: Fusion • Big-air sports: Lotus • Aerodyne: Triathlon • Icarus: Saffire 2 • Strong: Z-po • Paratec: Quadra V-Tec • PISA: Hornet • Chute Shop: Zepo • Performance Variables: Spark • NAA: Parafoil • Other pure PA canopies Categorie IV (wingload max 1.5, > 500 jumps) • Performance Designs: Stiletto, Vengeance • Parachutes de France: BT, BT Pro, Springo • Precision: Nitro • Airtime: Jonathan, Jedei • Big-air sports: Samurai • Atair: Impuls, Ace, Cobalt • Aerodyne: Diablo • Fligth concepts: Pro serie • Icarus: Crossfire • Paratec: Factor • Performance variables: Contrail • PISA: Heatwave • Chute Shop: Hurricane Categorie V (wingload = unlimited, > 1000 jumps) • Performance Designs: Velocity • Parachutes de France: Ninja • Precision: Xaos 21, Xaos 27 • Icarus: Extreme FX, VX • Paratec: X-wing, FandangoThe trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 March 5, 2003 Where would I fit into that at? 450 jumps, 250 in the last 12 months and about 180 out the door. It looks like a Cat 3 correct? If so its about the pace I've taken to get to my current 136 at 1.42 loading. Its a slow progression and it places small people at a serious disadvantage by forcing them to stay on stuff like 170s that they might only be loading at .7 or .8 and get blown around in the slightest breeze.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #3 March 5, 2003 I'd say this would be more suited to being described as guidance, for instructors and DZ safety officers etc (don't know the Dutch term the UK is CCI, US is S&TA),as opposed to regulation. I see the difficulty arising where a jumper is already in 'breach' of the regulation and may be forced to either break the 'law', lie about their experience level, or sell their canopy in order to continue jumping. Will this 'rule' apply to visiting jumpers as well?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #4 March 5, 2003 Ok, this is a rather common misconception, also here in The Netherlands. You can't be already in breach of the regulations: In art. 501 of the dutch Safety Regulations, a new canopy regulation is introduced. It states that anyone who wants to jump with a certain canopy and by choice that canopy changes from one experience category to another one, has to obey certain rules. The rules only apply when you change from 1 canopy to another and by doing that also change to a higher category.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #5 March 5, 2003 I don't think you can blanket govern canopy pilots like that. It wouldn't fly in the US. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #6 March 5, 2003 Paul, How's this: I have 266 jumps (cat III). I jump a safire (cat III). It's 135 sqft (cat IV). My WL is 1.18 (cat III). Now what? Does this place me in cat III or IV? I presume I can jump say a safire 120 without changing categories. What if: I want to jump a cat IV chute (Stiletto 120, or bigger)? Am I changing categories or not? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #7 March 5, 2003 There is always the possibility that this could\would have to fly in the US if the FAA takes interest in skydiving for some reason. The possibility of needing actual ratings to fly different levels of canopies is always there. All it takes is alot more incidents and then some one will have to step in to save us from ourselves.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #8 March 5, 2003 Hi Sas, I thought we talked about it, but here goes: If we say you now jump in cat IV, based on the size of your canopy, you won't be changing category when you switch to a stiletto 120, so you can chose that canopy.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #9 March 5, 2003 And nobody could so far explain to me why you now need 100 jumps to jump a Triathlon, but you can jump a Spectre/Silhouette and stuff with 25 jumps and you can even start out on a Sabre???? I also think you don't need 100 jumps for a PA chute or a Lightning, either... Personally I really do think 500 jumps for a Stiletto and stuff is okay, for most people. But I think the easier canopy list can use some work. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #10 March 5, 2003 QuoteWhere would I fit into that at? 450 jumps, 250 in the last 12 months and about 180 out the door. It looks like a Cat 3 correct? No you'd be cat IV because of your WL and canopy type, for which you'd need 50 jumps more. Quote If so its about the pace I've taken to get to my current 136 at 1.42 loading. Its a slow progression and it places small people at a serious disadvantage by forcing them to stay on stuff like 170s that they might only be loading at .7 or .8 and get blown around in the slightest breeze. The point is that smaller chutes at a conservative WL are faster than larger chutes at that same WL. I get that. Only I didn't think my Spectre 150 at 1:1 at 75 jumps was all that big a deal....... not allowed anymore. And I am definitely not the lightest girl at our DZ. I know 2 girls who got a 120 for a first canopy (triathlon, sabre), both at a WL < 1. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #11 March 5, 2003 Yeah, I know, that's what you said. Harm says not, tho. And he's the one I gotta listen to. Maybe not everything is clear yet, for everybody. Sure isn't for me... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #12 March 5, 2003 Talk to him again, cause I just discussed this with him monday...The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #13 March 5, 2003 Hey Paul, Last weekend I talked to one of the EC/TC members, I understood that everyone who chooses a new canopy should do that while following the posted rules. So, for Saskia, that would mean she can keep on jumping her Saffire135, but once she chooses to buy another canopy, she'll have to obey the new rules (which would place her in cat. III ). Right? Wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rtroup 1 #14 March 5, 2003 So according to this someone just off student status couldn't jump mains like the sabre2, safire2 or spectre even if the are loading it under 1.1 becouse these canopies are listed in categories 2 and 3? Even though these canopies are recommended as good first mains at lower wingloadings and some are used as student mains at some dropzones. Is this a false statement? This could be good as guidelines from the uspa if the list is done over a little but if people are already going to ignore the advice of fellow jumpers and the S&TA's, and jump canopies they are not ready for, why would they follow guidelines from uspa? I don't know how I feel about them being mandatory rules but if they were it would shore save some lives and lots of broken bones.(insert philosophical quote here) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #15 March 5, 2003 The Dutch have a good idea. Their new system mimics a similar system that the Australian Parachute Federation used for about 8 years. Remember folks, this is only a RECOMMENDATION. It provides guidelines for instructors, coaches, safety officers, etc. who are trying to talk young jumpers out of femuring. Australian DZOs, instructors, etc. only get hard-nosed about guidelines when over-achievers flagrantly ignore guidelines, look like they are going to femur and tell coaches, etc. to "f**k off." The Dutch system will only become law if skydivers continue femuring in at the current rate and the public gets scared. The Dutch wisely "grandfathered" in a bunch of non-conformists by only insisting on conformity when people CHANGE canopies. Finally, I agree with the idea of formal canopy control classes when people change categories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 March 5, 2003 Lets use me for an example. I have 360 jumps, I jump a Heatwave 170, but my wingloading is just a hair under 1.7:1. If the rules were instantly applied to me, would I have to go out and buy a new container and a new reserve/main to be in the rules or would I be exempt?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #17 March 5, 2003 Quote Remember folks, this is only a RECOMMENDATION. . No it's not. It's already mandatory. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #18 March 5, 2003 QuoteLets use me for an example. I have 360 jumps, I jump a Heatwave 170, but my wingloading is just a hair under 1.7:1. If the rules were instantly applied to me, would I have to go out and buy a new container and a new reserve/main to be in the rules or would I be exempt? Everybody can keep jumping what they already have. It's only when you change canopies and would thereby end up in a higher category, that you will have to meet the requirements for that category. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #19 March 5, 2003 QuoteSo according to this someone just off student status couldn't jump mains like the sabre2, safire2 or spectre even if the are loading it under 1.1 becouse these canopies are listed in categories 2 and 3? Even though these canopies are recommended as good first mains at lower wingloadings and some are used as student mains at some dropzones. Is this a false statement? No it is a true statement. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #20 March 5, 2003 What I do find kinda weird, is that nobody's mentioning reserve canopies (again). Which means I may have to jump a 150 sqft Spectre but can have a PD 106R??? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #21 March 5, 2003 I'm probably gonna take some flaming for this, but here goes: I think this is a great idea for a system...there is some tweeking that needs to happen IMO (basically to accommodate lighter weight persons), but overall I think it's way cool. I've been an advocate for Canopy ratings for a long time, but since US Jumpers (just like US citizens in general) wouldn't know a good thing if it smacked them in the head, it'll be a cold day in hell before we see it. We're all so caught up in "I can do whatever the hell I want" that we seldom stop to think "Hmmm, if there's a rule saying I can't do this, maybe there's a reason." Now, I'm not saying we should get rid of HP canopies, but rating them wouldn't be a bad idea...except for all of us asses out there that would feel that "some damn agency is always regulating my life!!!"...heaven forbid we educate some people and save some lives. I fly a highly loaded HP canopy, and I got there through education over time, not luck or "getting away" with it. You want to fly the hot rod, make more jumps, spend more time in the sport, LEARN MORE! Flame away... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #22 March 5, 2003 I agree with the concept. There are way too many people in this sport doing things way too early. Drop by the video forum and notice the guy with 8 jumps asking which helmet he should buy, for example. It's becoming abundantly clear that dz's can not be trusted to push lower time jumpers into picking appropriate gear. "Recomendations" are meaningless if dropzones are not going to follow them. Now, that said - these specific rules seem foolish. The Sabre2 is being used very effectively as a student first jump canopy in the US, but the dutch say you must have a hundred jumps to jump one. That doesn't make sense, to me. Likewise, that you can jump a sabre on your first jump, but not a spectre? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either. These specific regulations seem to lock in an entire nation to one groups idea of what an appropirate canopy is, even though in reality there are some wildly divergent and well justified alternate views. Any regulation that is adopted must be flexible enough to allow canopy instruction to mature, such as using a Sabre2 as a first jump canopy. Likewise, it must avoid contrived comparisons of "safety", unless those are well established. This specific set of rules seems poorly thought out, poorly constructed, and is being poorly implemented. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #23 March 5, 2003 I totally agree. A bit of tweaking and the system is a good one. I'd bump it to a 1.4 loadin at the class break and lower the jumps to 400, and maybe add in one at 1.6 and 600 jumps. Make the canopy list for the 600 one include all the X braced stuff, and reserve loadings of over 1.5 require proof of a reserve ride (either as a main or as a reserve). A system like this will help promote canopy skills since people will not be afraid of their canopies and might actually learn to fly the wing instead of the wing flying them. Its a lot like the people that buy a X braced canopy at a high wingloading that don't want to hook but still want to swoop far. Its the price you have to pay sometimes...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #24 March 5, 2003 Quote I'd bump it to a 1.4 loadin at the class break and lower the jumps to 400, and maybe add in one at 1.6 and 600 jumps Gee, that sounds familar...Brian's system is a great system and we're actually implementing it at my DZ for students/low time jumpers.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #25 March 5, 2003 So you going to go back up to something in the 1.4 range? If not is'nt that like calling the kettle black?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
