What is the business case for fun jumpers?

[Remster 24]

Kegger? Where??????

Remster

[DcloudZ 0]

Business case:

As a fun jumper, I've provided my DZ with more direct profit than a 1 time tandem.

Done.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[Elisha 1]

NWFlyer

***If you're a tandem-only operation you're missing any and all AFF business. Those slots must have decent margins as well.

Nobody would want to do AFF at a strictly AFF/Tandem operation either, so just adding the more expensive services wouldn't be terribly helpful.

When you say "no one would want to do AFF" do you mean no one would want to teach it or no one would want to be a student? Because I've seen some folks go through AFF at some very tandem-focused dropzones near here. They don't know what they don't know. They just know that the DZ closest to their home (which, let's face it, is often the way a DZ gets chosen) has AFF and they want to learn to skydive.

Of course, often times they'll show up at one of the more fun-jumper-friendly DZs once they get their A license because they realize that there's more to skydiving than solo jumps.

EXACTLY. This was me 11 years ago. It took me a year or so to "get it". I did a couple of tandems at a turbine DZ 1 hr 20 min away, but later did AFF at a Cessna Tandem factory 15 min away. Then one day, I visited a third DZ 1 hr 30 min away and felt very welcomed and had lots of fun. This place has been my home DZ ever since (8 years ago now). It also helped that the Cessna place packed up and left town not long after. I consider the first DZ a second home though,

[ufk22 32]

This all depends on logistics.
If you've got a turbine DZ flying a 14 pass aircraft, you would need 14 tandem rigs, 14 T-I's, and and 7 students/load to keep the plane turning (so as not to have to cycle the engine each load). If you have a fun-jumper base, you could cut those numbers in half. The alternative is to fly the plane holf full. If that's the comparison, then whatever you charge fun-jumpers is almost pure profit.
If you've got a Cessna, 4 rigs, 4 T-I's, and lots of tandem customers it's hard to make an economic arguement for funjumpers.
Had a DZ about 1 1/2 away from me that did an incredible tandem business with a kingair, but they eventually shut down. They were so focused on tandems that all the sport jumpers left. Without them to fill loads the economics didn't work.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[normiss 622]

Our place on the 4th, you're more than welcome.

[chuckakers 370]

Fun jumpers buy airplanes. Many would disagree with that, but try this on.

Many DZO's say they can't make any money on experienced jumpers, yet they get the fat tandem profits and spend all that money replacing rigs. Meanwhile the aircraft owner - who only gets the revenue of lift tickets (and usually only at the wholesale price, mind you) is the guy paying for a 7 figure aircraft with other people's money.

From an aircraft owner's perspective, every dollar he gets comes from an experienced jumper - just lift tickets - yet he's the guy that will own that asset at the end of the day. And it's an insured asset that typically goes UP in value while he depreciates it for tax purposes. That's what people who understand finance call a wise investment.

The DZO that says he can't make money on experienced jumpers probably leases his bird(s) from a guy who is banking from them.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[3mpire 0]

Could you elaborate a little bit more about how aircraft leases to skydiving operations work? I'm assuming there are a few variations, but is it a cut of each jump ticket? A flat rate per clock hour? A flat rate per day/week/month? Is there much variation in the market place in terms of what kind of a deal you can get or is it pretty standard that a certain class of aircraft goes for the same rate no matter who or where you are?

[fencebuster 7]

I am in season 2 running my own DZ. If not for fun jumpers, I would have gone out of business already. Like has been said here already, they fill up the plane; they come out and set the DZ vibe; they get the students enthused about being a skydiver; they entertain between loads and they keep it fun for the staff and me. EVeryone who "works" in slkydiving is really a fun jumper -- that is why we all started. Without fun jumpers it would be too much like work.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[DBCOOPER 1]

That model might work at a real busy turbine dz but not for a 182 dz.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[chuckakers 370]

DBCOOPER

That model might work at a real busy turbine dz but not for a 182 dz.

Funny, it worked for me when I owned a DZ. I leased turbines but owned a 182. It easily made its own payments through jump tickets and we only used it on weekdays and times when it was too slow to launch the big bird.

BTW, we didn't even do very many tandems. The vast majority of our jumps were fun jumpers - just the way we liked it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DBCOOPER 1]

Was av gas 6.25 a gallon then?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[chuckakers 370]

DBCOOPER

Was av gas 6.25 a gallon then?

Doesn't matter. Ticket prices vary with costs, including fuel. That's called business. If you aren't willing to adjust for costs, you aren't running a business.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Seems to me, a good business model (even DZ's) would be to encourage each and every revenue stream. Even to the point of selling observer rides. Each and every dollar fills the bank account.
I need to open a DZ... this shit is really simple.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[JeffCa 0]

FlyingRhenquest

I've never seen a dropzone take out an ad in radio, tv or print.

An ad in the newspaper for a FJC is how I ended up doing my first jump. Doesn't make it a common practice, but it can be and has been done.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[chuckakers 370]

JeffCa

So how much are we all being subsidised by tandems? If tandems were banned tomorrow, how much would our fun jump tickets have to cost for the average DZ to be worthwhile to run?

That depends. If you want a/c packing, jump tickets would go up a few cents. Video review stations - couple a pennies there. Bottom line - we get what we pay for regardless of who pays for it.

At the DZ I ran - Skydive USA outside Houston - we packed in a hot hangar, but we always had free cold beer on tap subsidized with a "throw in what you can" effort when it went dry.

We didn't have a bunk room, but jumpers were welcome to crash on the couches in the air conditioned manifest/office - with satellite TV that doubled as a review station, thank you very much.

No swimming pool, but an inflatable kiddie pool worked just fine for cooling off and made for many "interesting" drunkenese nights.

No cafe either, but nobody cared when they were getting naked around the bonfire eating pizza delivered to the DZ - usually at DZ expense.

Weight room? Nope, but climbing the beacon for midnight rides was pretty good for toning muscles anyway.

And on, and on.

I owned 4 tandem rigs and 20 student rigs. Tandems were important - but only as a way to get people to the DZ. From there, everyone on the DZ - including the fun jumpers - interacted with them, all of us looking for the ones that had "that". Those people were targeted for the Saturday night party. The parties of course included real skydiver talk. That usually sealed the deal.

There is no "right" formula for making money in the DZ biz. Money in, money out. That's it. The DZO decides how to get it done.

We did it with the vibe.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[airtwardo 6]

chuckakers

***So how much are we all being subsidised by tandems? If tandems were banned tomorrow, how much would our fun jump tickets have to cost for the average DZ to be worthwhile to run?

That depends. If you want a/c packing, jump tickets would go up a few cents. Video review stations - couple a pennies there. Bottom line - we get what we pay for regardless of who pays for it.

At the DZ I ran - Skydive USA outside Houston - we packed in a hot hangar, but we always had free cold beer on tap subsidized with a "throw in what you can" effort when it went dry.

We didn't have a bunk room, but jumpers were welcome to crash on the couches in the air conditioned manifest/office - with satellite TV that doubled as a review station, thank you very much.

No swimming pool, but an inflatable kiddie pool worked just fine for cooling off and made for many "interesting" drunkenese nights.

No cafe either, but nobody cared when they were getting naked around the bonfire eating pizza delivered to the DZ - usually at DZ expense.

Weight room? Nope, but climbing the beacon for midnight rides was pretty good for toning muscles anyway.

And on, and on.

I owned 4 tandem rigs and 20 student rigs. Tandems were important - but only as a way to get people to the DZ. From there, everyone on the DZ - including the fun jumpers - interacted with them, all of us looking for the ones that had "that". Those people were targeted for the Saturday night party. The parties of course included real skydiver talk. That usually sealed the deal.

There is no "right" formula for making money in the DZ biz. Money in, money out. That's it. The DZO decides how to get it done.

We did it with the vibe.


So what you're saying is..you had a DROPZONE!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Trev_S 0]

airtwardo

***And as a business man I'd say the savings I'd get by keeping fun jumpers out would buy me the best ad campaign since the geico gecko ;)

Everyone says to make a million in skydiving start with two million...that's not really true, BUT to get RICH in skydiving - you invariably will end up fucking somebody over.

Don't be that guy.

Without fun jumpers you have no AD campaign....because you have no sport.

The reason people want to do a tandem is because they then are a 'skydiver' to all the wuffos back at the office.

"Yeah I can skydive just like those guys on the 400way in the news"

You take away the fun jumpers you have a 'real' carnival ride...tandem ride would get stale.

Do you know WHY theme parks spends millions a year on a NEW ride? Nobody wants to do the 20 year old roller coaster...even IF they've never done it before.

Now IF what you're talking about is a small tandem only operation...you can no doubt have a workable business plan and make a profit.

But then...you're in effect leaching off the operations that DO promote fun jumping to keep interest in the sport etc.

It's being done at certain places and appears to be profitable...IF that's where you're sole interest lies in the sport - filling your pockets.

Then IMHO you are no better than Slydied or any of the other cheesedick fukwads the ME gereration has seemed to produce.

You CAN be a successful businessman AND a skydiver...there are plenty of drop zones proving that.

OR you can be a cheesedikfukwadbusinessman & and make the occasional solo fun jump (with all your friends LOL) at your 'tandem factory' when you're not haulin' meat ... wondering why real skydivers won't return your calls.


Keeping fun jumpers away from your operation is like having a bar that won't let women in the door because they don't buy as many drinks as men...short sighted and stupid.

best post on the internet.

[dzswoop717 5]

The answer is in the question."Fun jumpers" Have FUN! Without fun who would want to keep jumping. If you grow your own students into Tandem Instructors you can train them along the way and know their strenghts and weaknesses. Cultivate the outstanding ones and mold them into excellent TI,s. Otherwise you put an ad on dz.com and take all the other dropzones rejects. The very best TI that I personally took from AFF to TI now has over 10,000 tandems and has trained dozens of todays TI"s. He started out as a FUN jumper and became the back bone of the DZ. Try doing that with out FUN jumpers!

[topdocker 0]

chuckakers

***So how much are we all being subsidised by tandems? If tandems were banned tomorrow, how much would our fun jump tickets have to cost for the average DZ to be worthwhile to run?

That depends. If you want a/c packing, jump tickets would go up a few cents. Video review stations - couple a pennies there. Bottom line - we get what we pay for regardless of who pays for it.

At the DZ I ran - Skydive USA outside Houston - we packed in a hot hangar, but we always had free cold beer on tap subsidized with a "throw in what you can" effort when it went dry.

We didn't have a bunk room, but jumpers were welcome to crash on the couches in the air conditioned manifest/office - with satellite TV that doubled as a review station, thank you very much.

No swimming pool, but an inflatable kiddie pool worked just fine for cooling off and made for many "interesting" drunkenese nights.

No cafe either, but nobody cared when they were getting naked around the bonfire eating pizza delivered to the DZ - usually at DZ expense.

Weight room? Nope, but climbing the beacon for midnight rides was pretty good for toning muscles anyway.

And on, and on.

I owned 4 tandem rigs and 20 student rigs. Tandems were important - but only as a way to get people to the DZ. From there, everyone on the DZ - including the fun jumpers - interacted with them, all of us looking for the ones that had "that". Those people were targeted for the Saturday night party. The parties of course included real skydiver talk. That usually sealed the deal.

There is no "right" formula for making money in the DZ biz. Money in, money out. That's it. The DZO decides how to get it done.

We did it with the vibe.

Please let me know if you re-open this!!! Sounds like a real DZ!

top

Jump more, post less!

[chuckakers 370]

topdocker

******So how much are we all being subsidised by tandems? If tandems were banned tomorrow, how much would our fun jump tickets have to cost for the average DZ to be worthwhile to run?

That depends. If you want a/c packing, jump tickets would go up a few cents. Video review stations - couple a pennies there. Bottom line - we get what we pay for regardless of who pays for it.

At the DZ I ran - Skydive USA outside Houston - we packed in a hot hangar, but we always had free cold beer on tap subsidized with a "throw in what you can" effort when it went dry.

We didn't have a bunk room, but jumpers were welcome to crash on the couches in the air conditioned manifest/office - with satellite TV that doubled as a review station, thank you very much.

No swimming pool, but an inflatable kiddie pool worked just fine for cooling off and made for many "interesting" drunkenese nights.

No cafe either, but nobody cared when they were getting naked around the bonfire eating pizza delivered to the DZ - usually at DZ expense.

Weight room? Nope, but climbing the beacon for midnight rides was pretty good for toning muscles anyway.

And on, and on.

I owned 4 tandem rigs and 20 student rigs. Tandems were important - but only as a way to get people to the DZ. From there, everyone on the DZ - including the fun jumpers - interacted with them, all of us looking for the ones that had "that". Those people were targeted for the Saturday night party. The parties of course included real skydiver talk. That usually sealed the deal.

There is no "right" formula for making money in the DZ biz. Money in, money out. That's it. The DZO decides how to get it done.

We did it with the vibe.

Please let me know if you re-open this!!! Sounds like a real DZ!

top


It was a real DZ, Top. Exactly the kind of DZ I always wanted to be part of.

We closed up shop after our youngest got settled in the sport. One of our big motivations in opening SUSA was to get our kids in the air at 16 and we accomplished that. We did an asset sale to Skydive Houston when he turned 17 and the wife and I became fun jumpers for the first time in a dozen years.

We wanted our kids to chase the dream if they chose to and the effort paid off. Our daughter Heather Stephens is a rock-steady jumper like her mom, although she doesn't get in the air as much as she'd like between college, marriage, babies, and a busy life. My son Justin Price is another story. He went on to get his instructor ratings, fly camera, earn his rigger's ticket, develop his swoop skills to the national comp level, and most recently became the camera flyer and newest member of Arizona Airspeed 4-way. Mission accomplished and then some.

I must admit I miss the place. Especially the parties.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[demoknite 0]

If the OP is still hanging around I would be curious to know his case for not having fun jumpers and what was the motivation for asking the question...

[3mpire 0]

demoknite

If the OP is still hanging around I would be curious to know his case for not having fun jumpers and what was the motivation for asking the question...

I'm surprised it took this many posts for this question to come up.

I believe fun jumpers are an integral part of a healthy dropzone ecosystem and the long term health of a dropzone both as a business and as place people want to be is closely tied to the fun jumper community.

For many of the reasons already described above, you can see how a drop zone just starting out needs to have fun jumpers to help keep the business afloat.

Also, for large operations, the economies of scale make the fun jumper community very profitable.

I think where the case becomes difficult to make is in the middle, for the medium sized drop zone. The strength of the case for fun jumpers depends on what your long term goals and short term goals are as a business.

If your long term goal is to grow the business to the point that you start to become a regional contender, a large dropzone that is a destination, with a bonafied fleet of aircraft, etc., then it is clear that a strong fun jumper community is an essential part of that.

If your long term goal is to become a dependably profitable operation where costs are minimized, risk is minimized, and profits are maximized as a strongly positioned medium sized drop zone, then at a certain point the fun jumper becomes less strategically central to the health of the business.

Let me explain: in the early stages of a drop zone, it appears that the prime value of a fun jumper is to pad margins when an aircraft is not full of tandems. They also serve as advertising by filling the sky with canopies and putting on a show for the locals who may have never seen a skydiver in the air before.

They also grow into your staff. They are known quantities, and can help to grow the business both as TIs bringing in tandem dollars and as instructors growing the next crop of fun jumpers that will backfill the jumpers who quit or move on to other drop zones.

After a while the business is doing great, and you have more and more money to reinvest in more rigs and you can lease a turbine aircraft.

Continue with the formula and soon you have good regional recognition and plenty of tandem business coming in the door. Sooner or later, you're going to have enough tandem rigs, enough tandem instructors, and enough people calling your tandem hotline that you could fill nearly every single load.

But while your business has been growing your fun jumper community has grown and expect more from you. Just having a turbine with a few slots isn't enough.

They want events. They want coaching. They NEED instruction for canopy flight and wing suits both for their safety and to minimize the biz's exposure to risk.

They'll start jumping in bigger and bigger groups. Asking manifest for 9 slots on the next load, not in three hours, but the next load.

When you get to maximum capacity, it seems to me that you have to ask yourself if you want to sacrifice your short term profit margin to make the next big push to grow into that "large dropzone" category. Multiple turbine aircraft. Professional skydiving talent training, boogies/events bringing in national or international business and recognition, etc.

That is a big investment to make, both in terms of money and time/passion. You could fail. Bigger risk, bigger reward.

Or, you could consciously decide that the strength of the business at the current size is acceptable for the long term and in the short term any profits that come in can either be paid out to the ownership or invested in, say, buying your aircraft outright.

For this goal, the fun jumper is tangential to your businesses future. Enough jumpers to eat up the handfull of empty slots and pad the margins, but not enough to get expectations too high.

Unless you want to invest in all the things that you need to keep a larger fun jumper community content enough to reliably fill a second aircraft, there is not much of a business case for catering to the community beyond ensuring you have just enough to fill the gaps left over by tandems.

I could be completely wrong. It's just my opinion.

[Deisel 37]

Outstanding post. A year ago I would never have bought into the idea that a tandem only operation could prosper. But a year ago I would have never believed that I would be doing 30 tandems a weekend. As much as I hate to admit it, I am now convinced that fun jumpers are not necessary for a DZ to succeed.

I’m currently at a turbine DZ that does about 3 PAC loads an hour. All day, all weekend. Fun jumpers would break the rhythm crown the skies. They actually slow things down and can cause unneeded headaches. If a DZO is only interested in turning profits, it can be done much more easily without all of the demands that fun jumpers bring.

But let me be clear – I do not endorse this business model. I believe that it is detrimental to the sport. But the economics override good vibes and parties.

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[3mpire 0]

I think it's a horrible post lol

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Unless you want to invest in all the things that you need to keep a larger fun jumper community content enough to reliably fill a second aircraft, there is not much of a business case for catering to the community beyond ensuring you have just enough to fill the gaps left over by tandems.

I think a lot of other factors need to be considered.

Population base you are pulling from...average income vs. % of disposable income.

Average weather

Proximity to another dropzone

On & on & on...

'Growing' your operation could just counterproductive in regard to return on investment...on the other hand...two turbines just might be a license to print money.

Roger's business plan went into pretty intricate detail as to the what - how & where...IIRC the DZ's that followed it are doin' rather well.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~