UP DOWN GO sucks

[Trae 1]

been seeing a fair bit of this UP DOWN GO thing in AFF and beyond.

The inherent safety aspects of this exit technique are ?????

So much movement at the door looks very unprofessional. Watching all those unprotected handles scrapeing UP & DOWN as every-one jumps up and down in the door looks ..well .... STUPID!

This UP DOWN GO thingy just looks to increase the chances of a premi at the door.

A similar technque may work for a hot 4way but usually they will limit their movement in the door just enough to get in sync.

UP DOWN GO ....I wish it was up down GONE.

[CrazyL 0]

Have any suggestions on AFF exits?

[mattjw916 2]

I thought the "hot 4-way" technique was "shake, down, out"? There is no "up" involved AFAIK.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Have any suggestions on AFF exits? "

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Similar to 'up down go' just not so much upping & downing. These can be replaced with a more controlled tensioning and more athletic releasing.... rather than the more panicked looking UP DOWN GO.

So after the checks, slight tensioning and release.
Take the apparent panic out of it ... for the instructors as well.

inreply to "I thought the "hot 4-way" technique was "shake, down, out"? There is no "up" involved AFAIK.
.....................

planted a feather thought he'd grow a chicken,

My feeling on drag outs is just that a feeling. 4 different people or 3 in AFF become as one. The latest words can't beat the required feeling. Not much movement is needed to get it.

[mark 105]

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Have any suggestions on AFF exits?

Well, we teach Up-Down-Go, but usually in the door or on the step it's more like Wiggle-Go. Sometimes just Go. Sometimes something else inventive and challenging. And it's always only the student or his legstrap moving, not the instructors.

Mark

[Spenck 0]

I've been taught on the 'In, Out, Go' exit count which involves no up and down and very little body movements.

head back
out (point left leg out behind you)
in (bring leg back to the step)
go
hard arch

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"The day you were born you were born free, that is your privilege"

[CrazyL 0]

I agree. Tell me more about tension release technique. I'd say most jumpers in the door do a bit of 'down then out'. You've probably seen student do 'up,down,go' on go they go up into door frame on otter style door and up into door/wing on cessna 182. Have seen it occasionally and it bugs me. Good thing George Bush Sr. was wearing a helmet while exiting a tailgate A/C. On go he also went up rather than just out. Is there a way to keep this from happening with a 'tension, release' type count/exit?

[LuvToFly 0]

I am sure that this has been thought out much more than I have, but it seems to me a movement more akin to what we ultimately do, pull out, pull in, than launch out seemed safer. You could do it without having to be in the prop wash if there was concern about students going too far on the initial out movement.

Being reasonably tall, I always found I had to be a bit careful as a student in the door of the King Air I learned in - otherwise the up part of the up/door would make rig contact, and that made me a bit nervous.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Tell me more about tension release technique."
.............................

This is mainly about limiting unecessary movement at / in the door... for reasons most of us would see as obvious eg accidental R or C/A handle actvation.
It also can ensure a better exit & getting a nicely controlled exit is a good start to most skydives.

Rushing climb-outs / exits due to multiple groups exiting doesn't simplify the process.
However a group can create it's own moment of calm just before going. Once everyone is in position and grips taken some communication between all is required. If done well this moment of in-control calm can be extended to the whole skydive.

I feel the need to get a BIG launch at exit is over stated at least for small groups. With some aircraft it can be dangerous if lightweights jump up and out.
Wild throwings into the relative wind isn't good for controlled drag-out exits.

Creating the moment of calm communication where you allow your body to feel the others in the dragout can make a skydive much less stressful for the student in particular. No screaming / yelling in ears required.

Ready Set Go. (substitute any words you like its nailing the feeling/ looking /feeling that is important)
Ready is every-one with grips and every-one knowing each other is ready .
Set is the application of slightly increased muscular tension . Some holding-onto-the-aircraft tension already exists it is just increased slightly. This will pull the individuals together slightly. This is where each individual becomes more connected with each other. If done together each individual will feel / become part of the bigger group.
Go is the controlled release and directing of this now grouped extra tension. (tension don't mean stress . If you are fit and strong you will still be way inside your comfort zone. )

I know this is nothing new but it does work. I've been in some edgy 4way teams where we only had to look at each other . Designated person would nod and off we'd go... no need for an explosion at launch just a timed exit in unison. minimal movement and NO 'up down go.'

Easy to say....... in practice this takes practice. That's where the mock-ups are so good and cheap to use.

'Monkey see monkey do' can go a long way here. Any student and many others would do well to watch the good guys practise at the mock-ups. You may notice that the better rel teams are very efficient at climbing out and going without fuss.

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[nate_1979 9]

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Have any suggestions on AFF exits?

My AFF exits were simply Check in, Check out, Prop, Exit, .... No up down anything.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[bodypilot1 0]

Your remarks show your not an AFFI are you.

The movement is totally safe, and the purpose of the movement is to get the student and the instructor on the same count. We read body movement when we can not hear what the student is saying, and the exit comes off the plane cleaner when everyone leaves it at the same time.
I have made thousands of AFF exits using this technique or one very close to it.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Your remarks show your not an AFFI are you.

The movement is totally safe, .................................using this technique or one very close to it. "
..................

Ho hum ...guessed wrong. Your comments show some need to assert your dominance..... but would it matter if I wasn't AFF.? slightly off issue and into ?????

Just think of me as a concerned skydiver.
In my books Up Down Go needs work.

The reason I posted here about this is 'cause I've noticed how UP DOWN GO looks unsafe especially on some aircraft and with some people .
All that scraping of handles and excess movement in the door.
This endangers others & is basically bad airmanship...especially in the long term.


Your up down go may be very different from the scrape Up scrape down explode go that is on display in some places.
If translated on into general skydiving with all the same excessive movement & lack of handle security it just looks unecessarily dankerous to my eyes.

Many trained AFF students are passed but just don't know how to exit an aircraft and stay stable.
'Up down explode' habits then need removing and may even contribute to potential tail strikes on some aircraft.

Totally safe??? Is this the same sport we're talking about?

[bodypilot1 0]

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Ho hum ...guessed wrong. Your comments show some need to assert your dominance..... but would it matter if I wasn't AFF.? slightly off issue and into ?????

Nope. No need to dominate anyone.

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Just think of me as a concerned skydiver.
In my books Up Down Go needs work.

The reason I posted here about this is 'cause I've noticed how UP DOWN GO looks unsafe especially on some aircraft and with some people .
All that scraping of handles and excess movement in the door.
This endangers others & is basically bad airmanship...especially in the long term.

Your concerns look at though you need to attend a USPA meeting to change the training sylibus maybe?Or start teaching it correctly to every student you see at your dropzone, the way YOU see safe?

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Your up down go may be very different from the scrape Up scrape down explode go that is on display in some places.

Is this the same place that has the lack of leadership? Maybe you are having too many issues with the people you jump with, or need to open your own DZ to make you own rules and teaching techniques?

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If translated on into general skydiving with all the same excessive movement & lack of handle security it just looks unecessarily dankerous to my eyes.

The translation has work great for tens of thousands of students over the years. How many people are you going to say have been killed when their Instructors made them do the UP, Down- Go and it deployed a parachute killing anyone?

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Many trained AFF students are passed but just don't know how to exit an aircraft and stay stable.

I've seen a few, but none of mine EVER have.

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'Up down explode' habits then need removing and may even contribute to potential tail strikes on some aircraft.

Name one?

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Totally safe??? Is this the same sport we're talking about?

Yes.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Reginald 0]

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Watching all those unprotected handles scrapeing UP & DOWN as every-one jumps up and down in the door looks ..well .... STUPID!

Um, I don't know what kind of aircraft you're jumping out of but I've never seen handles be a problem on Otters or Caravan's on an AFF count. No ones handles get scraped on anything. Only the student is moving up and down and it is only an inch or two, just enough to give good guidance to the AFFI's that the exit is about to occur. I just do not see a large-scale problem here. Can you describe in detail this problem you perceive?

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[tombuch 0]

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in reply to "Your remarks show your not an AFFI are you.

Ho hum ...guessed wrong. Your comments show some need to assert your dominance..... but would it matter if I wasn't AFF.? slightly off issue and into ?????

Just think of me as a concerned skydiver.
In my books Up Down Go needs work.

The reason I posted here about this is 'cause I've noticed how UP DOWN GO looks unsafe especially on some aircraft and with some people .
All that scraping of handles and excess movement in the door.
This endangers others & is basically bad airmanship...especially in the long term.

I think part of his assessment of your AFF status was based on an incomplete profile.

Up, down, go (arch) works. Explosive movements are not the objective, at least according to my instructional outlines. The idea is to get the student to lead an organized exit. We can teach it with limited movement on the ground, but once in the airplane anything goes as the student will sometimes make no movement, and sometimes get "explosive."

As you noted, there are some airplanes where the exit commands need to be modified (perhaps in-out-go), and some where the instructors need to be very aware of handle position. Good instructors will modify the exit command when aircraft safety dictates. Likewise, an over-assertive count needs to be discussed in the AFF debrief, but as an instructor, I think we are all safer with a more pronounced count, than a student count with no movement at all.

You are probably correct that some students carry an explosive count with them for years, but that's where we as a community of experienced jumpers need to coach them to calm it down. It's much easier to control an exit count when you have dozens (or hundreds, or thousands) of jumps than when you are a student dealing with high stress emotions. So, when you see more experienced jumpers using the power count, work with them so they can better understand the "vibe" of a calmer count.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[davelepka 4]

Look, you need an exit count, and the more pronounced you train it, the better.

By the time it gets to the door, the lackluster performance of the student dmapnes out alot of the movemnt, if not all of it.

Each AC has it's own exit situation. If you don't like one at your DZ, step up and change it. You're a rated instructor. Assert yourself.

Then remember that all of the other student exits are being handled by a rated instructor who has the same responsibility for the students as you do. You do your job. They'll do their job.

[billvon 2,471]

>The inherent safety aspects of this exit technique are ?????

1) It gives the AFFI a clue that the student is about to exit, which is important.

2) It gives the student a physical cue to step off and begin the arch; important since generally you can't hear in the door.

3) A DOWN or IN motion prepares the student to launch; the next motion is naturally up/out.

We used "out in go" generally, since that provided a more intuitive count (i.e. the second out is go.) However, that can lead to students launching too hard and doing a "superman" out the door, which is one reason some other places use "up down go."

[riggerrob 562]

.... so they can better understand the "vibe" of a calmer count.
.

[riggerrob 562]

Clumsy students have proved that: if you slam any rig long enough and hard enough against any door frame, you can open any rig on the step/in the doorway of any airplane.

The less jerky, violent movement the better.

PFF Instructors just want to see enough movement that they can take their exit cue.

[Scoop 0]

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Have any suggestions on AFF exits?

My AFF exits were simply Check in, Check out, Prop, Exit, .... No up down anything.

I saw this in another thread. Sorry for appearing dumb but I dont understand 'prop'

For your info, I did UP, DOWN, ARCH

[winsor 189]

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been seeing a fair bit of this UP DOWN GO thing in AFF and beyond.

The inherent safety aspects of this exit technique are ?????

So much movement at the door looks very unprofessional. Watching all those unprotected handles scrapeing UP & DOWN as every-one jumps up and down in the door looks ..well .... STUPID!

This UP DOWN GO thingy just looks to increase the chances of a premi at the door.

A similar technque may work for a hot 4way but usually they will limit their movement in the door just enough to get in sync.

UP DOWN GO ....I wish it was up down GONE.

When doing big-ways out of planes such as the DC-3, the UP motion alerts floaters to the onset of the count. Hanging on to the outside of the airplane, it can be tough to see what the person in the middle is doing.

DOWN, at which point the person's face drops out of sight, tells front-front and rear-rear the timing at which the GO will happen.

When shooting camera in the rear-rear-rear slot, I found UP, DOWN GO to be the most effective way to be on the same page. It can be a bitch to synch up otherwise.

If you are risking your handles, you are doing it wrong. I have never seen an inadvertent deployment or accidental cutaway result from an UP, DOWN GO call.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[azureriders 0]

Most all my AFF and Tandem exits were, Check in, Check out (if two instructors), prop (look at the propeller), out, in, out. This was while stadnig faceing the front of the otter in the front of the door.

Once my instructor decided to teach me a new exit, so we both climb out, faceing back in the plane, reaching under holding the bar, one foot hanging, Check out (being he was outside), prop, up, down, go.

The count was so different to me than what I was used to the I botched it bad. I always gave a good count, but this time it was just , check out, prop, um, yeah, sure, ok, then just fall off backwards, no presentation to the wind at all. OOPS

[Zoter 0]

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I saw this in another thread. Sorry for appearing dumb but I dont understand 'prop'

Its referring to "look" at the aircraft propellor prior to exit which gives the student a better chance at leaving the aircraft with a good arch as they have a head high/up position (which aids the arch position) as well as giving them a visual reference on the plane as they exit , aiding heading control and hopefully stability.

[nate_1979 9]

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I saw this in another thread. Sorry for appearing dumb but I dont understand 'prop'

As someone else said, it's looking at the prop on the wing (i.e. in a twin otter) ... This did kinda backfire once during my training though, on AFF 3 I jumped from a caravan instead of the otter, I did a check in, check out, pro.. wtf, no proooooppppp (out the door) ... I was unprepaired for the exit at that point.. the rest of the dive successfully got me a bowling speech..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Explosive movements are not the objective, at least according to my instructional outlines. The idea is to get the student to lead an organized exit. We can teach it with limited movement on the ground, but once in the airplane anything goes as the student will sometimes make no movement, and sometimes get "explosive."
.................

Its the excessive movement that got my attention...on more than one occassion and at more than one DZ.
As a taught skydiving habit it just looks unpro and a risk magnifier.

Good to hear a well rounded reply . This is no huge widespread prob perhaps & is most likely only an issue with the less experienced instructors &/or operators.

in reply to "we as a community of experienced jumpers need to coach them to calm it down"

I'll second that

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