Student canopies/line twist?

[Toddnkaya1 0]

Are student canopies , or larger canopies less likely to get line twist which result in violent spinning situations ,compared to smaller ,more advanced canopies?
Thanks, Todd

[dthames 0]

Toddnkaya1

Are student canopies , or larger canopies less likely to get line twist which result in violent spinning situations ,compared to smaller ,more advanced canopies?
Thanks, Todd

In general, yes, much less likely as the design is more stable on the canopy types most often used for students.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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dthames

***Are student canopies , or larger canopies less likely to get line twist which result in violent spinning situations ,compared to smaller ,more advanced canopies?
Thanks, Todd

In general, yes, much less likely as the design is more stable on the canopy types most often used for students.

And the same goes for reserves.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[rwieder 0]

The student gear is not loaded nearly as high wing load wise compared to personal gear, and they are not fully elliptical 27 cell performance canopies. So no they're not nearly as prone to line twist as are personal rigs. But don't let that let complacency set in. Any canopy can spin up, a small thing like a trash packed rig, maybe it's a busy day at the DZ and the DZ packers are packing student gear and their client's gear as well. I never do a really neat pack job, I'm an admitted trash packing dog. They open, but they are entertaining! I've had a lot of crazy stuff happen to me, but nothing I couldn't never get fixed in time, close a couple of times. 1 canopy swap in almost 14 years of jumping! I used to have a cut-away rig, just a belly mount rig where you could deploy it, cut it away, then deploy your main. I learned a lot, but the reason I started doing it is because I was coming up on 300 jumps and had never had the situation to cut away. It got to where it was consuming me with fear. I couldn't get it off of my mind, that's why I did what I did. What I can tell you is constantly practice your EP's when the time comes, it'll be second nature. Good luck!

Best-
Richard

[GooniesKid 0]

Toddnkaya1

Are student canopies , or larger canopies less likely to get line twist which result in violent spinning situations ,compared to smaller ,more advanced canopies?
Thanks, Todd

Less likely, maybe. but it does happen....happened to me on AFF4

[Toddnkaya1 0]

Thanks everyone for your replies!

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

Less likely to get line twists?

No, actually more likely to get line twists, mostly because the students don't know how to deploy in a stable body position yet. It's not the canopy, it's the operator.

Less likely to result in violently spinning situations?

Far, far, far less likely. Almost impossible.
The size and design of the canopy is very stable, very forgiving, very docile. You can have some significant line twists and it will still fly straight and level (mostly anyway).

The smaller more advanced canopies are far, far more responsive to control inputs, and are more likely to spin up from line twists. Some will go into line twists, and subsequently into a violent, unrecoverable spin (requiring a cutaway and reserve ride) due to bad body position on opening. The Diablo is known for this.

But it is not something a beginning (or even intermediate) jumper should be on.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[GooniesKid 0]

wolfriverjoe

Less likely to get line twists?

No, actually more likely to get line twists, mostly because the students don't know how to deploy in a stable body position yet. It's not the canopy, it's the operator.

Less likely to result in violently spinning situations?

Far, far, far less likely. Almost impossible.
The size and design of the canopy is very stable, very forgiving, very docile. You can have some significant line twists and it will still fly straight and level (mostly anyway).

The smaller more advanced canopies are far, far more responsive to control inputs, and are more likely to spin up from line twists. Some will go into line twists, and subsequently into a violent, unrecoverable spin (requiring a cutaway and reserve ride) due to bad body position on opening. The Diablo is known for this.

But it is not something a beginning (or even intermediate) jumper should be on.

They dont call it a Diablo for nothing

[theplummeter 14]

If you're learning to jump via a static line progression (particularly a direct bag setup) you can almost count on having line twists more often than not.

I've watched hundreds of students get line twists on static lines and not a single cutaway.

Line twists generally aren't an issue on anything appropriate for students.

[gowlerk 1,923]

Toddnkaya1

Are student canopies , or larger canopies less likely to get line twist which result in violent spinning situations ,compared to smaller ,more advanced canopies?
Thanks, Todd

There is a basic trade off in canopy design. Stability versus maneuverability. The more stable it is, the less "fun" it is. And the less likely it is to get you into a spinning situation when you encounter line twists. Like the difference between a sports car and a minivan. You can get into trouble with either, but not in the same way.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Trafficdiver 8]

I got line twists on my Sabre2 210 the other day. Maybe 2 full rotations. I leaned back looked up at them, smiled, they unwound, I went back to my normal canopy procedures.

All set by 2200'.

[cbassmnm 4]

Check out this video of a line twist on a sabre 2 170. This can be regarded as a student canopy. I dont know the wing loading on the one on the video, but you can see how much altitude is lost with the second view. It is only like 1.5 line twists. This is the canopy I jump, and have never had a spinning line twist like this one. Maybe because the end cells are not fully inflated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gBYlL1taU8

[Hellis 0]

cbassmnm

Check out this video of a line twist on a sabre 2 170. This can be regarded as a student canopy. I dont know the wing loading on the one on the video, but you can see how much altitude is lost with the second view. It is only like 1.5 line twists. This is the canopy I jump, and have never had a spinning line twist like this one. Maybe because the end cells are not fully inflated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gBYlL1taU8

It's a bit unfair to call this "linetwists".
Yes the lines are twisted, but as you said endcell closure probably did some of the spinning.

And lets not forget that one of the brakes was not set.

Yes it is linetwists, but thats not the reason it was spinning and loosing altitude so fast.


Edit: was that really part of the plan to just pull there in the middle of the formation?

[Trafficdiver 8]

Those line twists didn't look that bad to me at all. The idiot who pulled without tracking looked much more dangerous.

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GooniesKid

***Are student canopies , or larger canopies less likely to get line twist which result in violent spinning situations ,compared to smaller ,more advanced canopies?
Thanks, Todd

Less likely, maybe. but it does happen....happened to me on AFF4

Really? You had "violent spinning" linetwists on AFF4?

It may have seemed like that to you at the time but I highly doubt it.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[riggerrob 558]

Line twists are common on large, docile student canopies. Most of those line twists are caused by "semi-stable" students.
Fortunately, student canopies are designed to be docile, so that - even with line-twists - they usually stay directly overhead. Half the time, student canopies untwist just as the student look up, so no big deal!

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

riggerrob

Line twists are common on large, docile student canopies. Most of those line twists are caused by "semi-stable" students.
Fortunately, student canopies are designed to be docile, so that - even with line-twists - they usually stay directly overhead. Half the time, student canopies untwist just as the student look up, so no big deal!

I never had that many. I think two, maybe three times in 140-ish jumps on rental gear. And all those times they were pretty easy to deal with.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[BasReith 0]

I got linetwist at AFF1 AFF2 and AFF4. My body position wasn't stable I think. But they were easy to kick out.

[DivingWombat 0]

cbassmnm

Check out this video of a line twist on a sabre 2 170. This can be regarded as a student canopy.

Wrong! A sabre 2 170 is far away from being a student canopy. I would load it around 1.4.

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DivingWombat

Wrong! A sabre 2 170 is far away from being a student canopy. I would load it around 1.4.

That's a very absolute statement and like many absolute statements, particularly in skydiving, it is not totally correct.

There ARE places using Sabre2's as student canopies. And yes, down to and including the 170. For a 100lb girl it could be fine.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[mattjw916 2]

Indeed, I'm pretty sure I was renting Sabre 2s in the 210 range right off of student status or possibly even for coach jumps back in the day. That would've put me at a WL of around 0.9 - 1.0 depending on how much McDonald's I was consuming at the time. Bleh...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[GooniesKid 0]

DocPop

***

Wrong! A sabre 2 170 is far away from being a student canopy. I would load it around 1.4.

That's a very absolute statement and like many absolute statements, particularly in skydiving, it is not totally correct.

There ARE places using Sabre2's as student canopies. And yes, down to and including the 170. For a 100lb girl it could be fine.

true..my first rental after AFF was a sabre2 230

[DivingWombat 0]

You all should drop a mail do PD and tell them to advertise a Sabre 2 as a student canopy.

Sure, if you hang a 100lb girl under a 170sf it might work pretty well.
On the other side I have seen a 140lb guy (student) breaking his leg 4 times under a 170sf S2. Was just a crosswind landing with some "wrong" input.

YMMV but I won't change my mind. A S2 is not a student canopy and can get pretty violent with some line twists. A stundent canopy in the 230-280 range will most probably fly level and won't dive.

[normiss 622]

So how long have you been instructing students on proper canopy selection and different flight characteristics of those canopies?

[DivingWombat 0]

normiss

So how long have you been instructing students on proper canopy selection and different flight characteristics of those canopies?

I see in which direction it goes...

On one end everyone tells the youngsters to be safe and on the other hand some recommend intermediate canopies for students in the 170sf range.

And NO I am not an instructor as you can see when you check my profile.