EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[airdvr 197]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:03 PM, billvon said:

Agreed - although for 90% of the industries out there, the conversion to EV will not be difficult. 

Yes but why would they?  There has to be a compelling reason to spend the money.

[Phil1111 911]

41 minutes ago, airdvr said:

The convenience of my truck is boat towing, hauling yard waste,  the occasional moving of objects, and the comfort of 4 WD during snowstorms. I don’t know anyone who has a truck that doesn’t use it for some or all of those things. 

I thought you were in Florida?

[airdvr 197]

I wish. Northeast Ohio resident since 1964.  Moved here from Florida

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

The convenience of my truck is boat towing, hauling yard waste,  the occasional moving of objects, and the comfort of 4 WD during snowstorms. I don’t know anyone who has a truck that doesn’t use it for some or all of those things. 

Not to mention all of your friends who need to borrow it to move stuff 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

The convenience of my truck is boat towing, hauling yard waste,  the occasional moving of objects, and the comfort of 4 WD during snowstorms. I don’t know anyone who has a truck that doesn’t use it for some or all of those things. 

With a boat, you definitely need a tow vehicle.

I had a pickup for a while (a long time ago).
The number of times it was more than 'just a big, cool vehicle' was pretty small.
For the gas I burned 'just driving' it (alone with nothing in the back), I could have rented a truck to use a BUNCH of times.

I had a Porsche Cayenne SUV for 8 1/2 years. 7700# tow capacity.
As I noted above, I can count the number of times I towed a trailer on one hand. And it was usually a really small utility trailer, pulling a roto-tiller or some building materials.

[SethInMI 145]

18 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

For the gas I burned 'just driving' it (alone with nothing in the back), I could have rented a truck to use a BUNCH of times.

I came to the same conclusion many years ago. Several times a year I rent the pickup that our local big-box store has available so I can haul things, or borrow a family van to do that as well.  Way cheaper.

Not going to throw rocks at anyone who wants to own a pickup though, sometimes it is just nice to have a capability at your finger tips, even if you rarely need it...but people need to understand how much that actually costs them. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

12 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

...Not going to throw rocks at anyone who wants to own a pickup though, sometimes it is just nice to have a capability at your finger tips, even if you rarely need it...but people need to understand how much that actually costs them. 

And how little they actually utilize those capabilities.

When I was in my teens, my family had a little 'lake house', and a boat. 
We normally towed the boat twice a year. Once in spring to take it to the lake and put it in, once in fall to get it out and bring it home. The Buick LeSabre that was the family car did an adequate job.
I asked my dad why we didn't get a better tow vehicle for the boat and he responded that 'We only tow the damned thing twice a year, why should we spend money on a bigger car that will cost an arm and a leg to fuel for that?'

[wmw999 2,122]

28 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

'We only tow the damned thing twice a year, why should we spend money on a bigger car that will cost an arm and a leg to fuel for that?'

Smart man, your dad. You probably rolled your eyes when he said that, though

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

54 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

I came to the same conclusion many years ago. Several times a year I rent the pickup that our local big-box store has available so I can haul things, or borrow a family van to do that as well.  Way cheaper.

Not going to throw rocks at anyone who wants to own a pickup though, sometimes it is just nice to have a capability at your finger tips, even if you rarely need it...but people need to understand how much that actually costs them. 

I need a 4X4 Pickup at the airport. Stopping the show to go rent just wouldn't work. Hate the thing for town missions, though.

[wmw999 2,122]

21 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I need a 4X4 Pickup at the airport. Stopping the show to go rent just wouldn't work. Hate the thing for town missions, though.

Yeah, when you're one person, and you really need a specialty vehicle sometimes, it can make it harder. I'd say there's always the electric moped, but it's probably Oregon, and while it no longer apparently ALWAYS rains there, it probably does too much...

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, wmw999 said:

Yeah, when you're one person, and you really need a specialty vehicle sometimes, it can make it harder. I'd say there's always the electric moped, but it's probably Oregon, and while it no longer apparently ALWAYS rains there, it probably does too much...

Wendy P.

Not when I'm there.

[normiss 622]

3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

With a boat, you definitely need a tow vehicle.

I had a pickup for a while (a long time ago).
The number of times it was more than 'just a big, cool vehicle' was pretty small.
For the gas I burned 'just driving' it (alone with nothing in the back), I could have rented a truck to use a BUNCH of times.

I had a Porsche Cayenne SUV for 8 1/2 years. 7700# tow capacity.
As I noted above, I can count the number of times I towed a trailer on one hand. And it was usually a really small utility trailer, pulling a roto-tiller or some building materials.

Added advantage of owning a boat is writing off "some" highway fuel taxes every year. When I was a competitive kneeboarder, I towed every day. I HAD to be on the water everyday.

[billvon 2,400]

7 hours ago, airdvr said:

Yes but why would they?  There has to be a compelling reason to spend the money.

A few reasons.

1) They will want to save money on fuel and maintenance.
2) The available vehicles will eventually be mostly EV.  Keep in mind that most work trucks now have a Bluetooth receiver in the radio.  This is not because business owners want to have a Bluetooth receiver in the truck.  It's because almost all radios now come with a Bluetooth receiver, and it's more effort to get one without it.
3) Eventually the infrastructure to support gas vehicles (oil change places, local gas pumps) will be harder to come by.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

A few reasons.

1) They will want to save money on fuel and maintenance.
2) The available vehicles will eventually be mostly EV.  Keep in mind that most work trucks now have a Bluetooth receiver in the radio.  This is not because business owners want to have a Bluetooth receiver in the truck.  It's because almost all radios now come with a Bluetooth receiver, and it's more effort to get one without it.
3) Eventually the infrastructure to support gas vehicles (oil change places, local gas pumps) will be harder to come by.

You don’t need to go to the local Jiffy Juice to get your electrons changed? If you do, do they do the up sell rip off recommending synthetic ones?

[normiss 622]

39 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You don’t need to go to the local Jiffy Juice to get your electrons changed? If you do, do they do the up sell rip off recommending synthetic ones?

Synthetic lubricants reduce friction, heat, and noise. I swear by it in all 3 holes on the Harley.

They can also provide leak detection on older vehicles as they help to remove the sludge that is sealing weakened sealing surfaces.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, normiss said:

Synthetic lubricants reduce friction, heat, and noise. I swear by it in all 3 holes on the Harley.

They can also provide leak detection on older vehicles as they help to remove the sludge that is sealing weakened sealing surfaces.

In some of the cars I owned growing up, all that held the engine together was varnish and sludge. Besides, we have an over 100 years supply of Non-GMO, gluten free, organic oil in the ground, why bother with homemade oil?

[normiss 622]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

In some of the cars I owned growing up, all that held the engine together was varnish and sludge. Besides, we have an over 100 years supply of Non-GMO, gluten free, organic oil in the ground, why bother with homemade oil?

Because it's better. Why refuse to acknowledge technical improvements??? That shit in the ground won't last forever either.

I'm a pretty hardcore motorhead, currently have an old pickup I/m restoring and improving. I love the old stuff. I also love technology and have long been fascinated by the things humans can accomplish. Electric, solar, wind, and hydro power generation for a ton of industries is a good improvement.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 minutes ago, normiss said:

Because it's better. Why refuse to acknowledge technical improvements??? That shit in the ground won't last forever either.

I'm a pretty hardcore motorhead, currently have an old pickup I/m restoring and improving. I love the old stuff. I also love technology and have long been fascinated by the things humans can accomplish. Electric, solar, wind, and hydro power generation for a ton of industries is a good improvement.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

7 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Smart man, your dad. You probably rolled your eyes when he said that, though

Wendy P.

Actually, he was REALLY smart. 
Smart enough that I knew, even as a teenager, that he was smarter than I was (really).

There were things we didn't agree on, but I almost never thought his opinion or position on something was 'dumb'.

[gowlerk 1,912]

5 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Besides, we have an over 100 years supply of Non-GMO, gluten free, organic oil in the ground, why bother with homemade oil?

Just what is it that you think "synthetic lubricants" are made out of? 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

49 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Just what is it that you think "synthetic lubricants" are made out of? 

Internet foolishness, apparently. 

[brenthutch 383]

11 hours ago, billvon said:

A few reasons.

1) They will want to save money on fuel and maintenance.
 

When you factor in the greater upfront cost, the greater backend depreciation, increased tire wear (up to 20%) the inconvenience of having to find a charger and then having to wait, sometimes hours, to recharge, the astronomical cost of replacing a battery should you get in a fender bender and the the increased insurance premiums most folks will just opt out. There will still be a market for the early adopters and virtue signalers but that is starting to get tapped out.

[olofscience 421]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

When you factor in the greater upfront cost, the greater backend depreciation, increased tire wear (up to 20%) the inconvenience of having to find a charger and then having to wait, sometimes hours, to recharge, the astronomical cost of replacing a battery should you get in a fender bender and the the increased insurance premiums most folks will just opt out. There will still be a market for the early adopters and virtue signalers but that is starting to get tapped out.

Do you have this ready to cut and paste?

Anyway, billvon's point is actually valid - a growing list of car manufacturers have announced they will become electric-only, several countries Europe and UK have announced planned dates for banning all new ICE vehicles.

Almost no new R&D is being done on ICE vehicles. They won't go extinct, but it's ICE vehicles that will become niche, rather than the EVs. Horses didn't become extinct when cars took over, but these days getting horse tack is more of a specialist market.

[brenthutch 383]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwimnqm35c2DAxW0lokEHeFbBw4QtwJ6BAgGEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dz0ok-leJB5k&usg=AOvVaw1Dr0O9wUwD9ui22_rg8Ny0&opi=89978449
 

Full sized pickup truck sales booming down under. I loved the quote “if you’re worried about gas mileage, get a Prius”

[brenthutch 383]

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2024/01/the_electric_vehicle_doom_loop.html
 

“The inevitable, planet-saving, path to universal electric vehicle (EV) ownership is becoming increasingly cratered. Some 4000 dealers recently begged President Biden to stop pushing EVs. They can’t give them away.  About half of all Ford Dealers refuse to stock them, and more than 50% of Buick dealers recently went out of business rather than sell them.  Ford has largely bet its EV future on the F-150 Lightning pickup. It’s a sucker’s bet. Ford recently announced it was cutting its EV production plans in half. Articles like Motor Trend’s “Our Last Ford F-150 Lightning EV Pickup Road Trip Was A Nightmare” explains why”

Car companies are starting to respond to the realities of the market instead of government coercion and have scaled back their EV aspirations. There are not enough charging stations to make EVs viable and there are not enough EVs to make charging stations profitable aka viable.  And at the cost of seven billion dollars for a single station the government is not going to be of much help.