EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[brenthutch 384]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

We have the opposite - a heat pump with natural gas as a backup.  (Of course here we never need the backup.)

I'd be surprised if a geothermal heat pump couldn't keep up with heat in the winter, since it's a much more constant temperature six feet underground.

My folks neighbor spent $$$ on geothermal and the savings never paid out, they are now suing to try to recover some of their lost money.  Geothermal, just like wind and solar sound great in theory however they often fall short in practice.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

 Heating a 2000 sq ft home with an electric furnace and powering all of life's other niceties requires a 200 amp service.

Hi Ken,

I live in a MUCH milder climate, so not a direct comparison.

I also live in a 2,000 sq ft house & have NG for heat & hot water.

If I were 20 yrs younger, I would convert to a heat pump [ I've looked a LOT at geo-thermal & the costs are too high ] and hybrid hot water heater with a solar PV system.

IMO the future will be a lot of alternative heat/cool sources.  I've really liked the geo-thermal heat pumps; ever since I attended a seminar on them about 30-35 yrs ago.  

IMO the fed gov't should get behind doing whatever will be needed to get the geo-thermal systems within financial capability of Joe Average.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Jerry Baumchen

[brenthutch 384]

4 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

If I were 20 yrs younger, I would convert to a heat pump….I've really liked the geo-thermal heat pumps; ever since I attended a seminar on them about 30-35 yrs ago.  

 

Jerry Baumchen

Thirty years ago you were at least twenty years younger 

[SkyDekker 1,123]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:49 PM, gowlerk said:

Like my post said, if I converted from gas to electric heat and also needed to charge two cars I would. Actually the furnace conversion alone would require it. Replacing ICE vehicles with EVs is going to require many distribution upgrades. My wife is absolutely not forgoing the AC either. The truth is that transitioning away is great in theory, but will be a long slow process.

The development I live in is all on 100amp panels. I have neighbours running heat pumps/AC, hot tubs and car charges of that 100 amp panel....(including off course a washer/dryer as well...though stoves are gas)

[gowlerk 1,914]

10 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The development I live in is all on 100amp panels. I have neighbours running heat pumps/AC, hot tubs and car charges of that 100 amp panel....(including off course a washer/dryer as well...though stoves are gas)

Yes, 100 amps is standard here as well. If you don't have an electric furnace. Urban areas here use NG for heating. Those who live where that is not available need a 200 amp service. The climate where you live is somewhat different than Winnipeg's. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by gowlerk

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

17 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The development I live in is all on 100amp panels. I have neighbours running heat pumps/AC, hot tubs and car charges of that 100 amp panel....(including off course a washer/dryer as well...though stoves are gas)

Hi Sky,

Depending upon how one loads the electrical system in their house, 100 amp can work just fine.

When I bought my current house [ 1995 ], it was a 2-bedroom, 1200 sq ft house with a 100 amp panel.  It is now a 3-bedroom, 2,000 sq ft house with a 150 amp panel.

As a case in point:  In my kitchen, I have two 20 amp circuits, one for each side of the kitchen.  My microwave & small toaster oven sit where they are both on one of the two circuits.  If I use them both at the same time, it will trip the breaker.

Jerry Baumchen

[wolfriverjoe 1,342]

15 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Yes, 100 amps is standard here as well. If you don't have an electric furnace. Urban areas here use NG for heating. Those who live where that is not available need a 200 amp service. The climate where you live is somewhat different than Winnipeg's. 

Yes. 

My missing the 'electric furnace' part in the previous post was important.

Electric heat is high consumption.

Toss in "Canadian Plains" climate and it increases significantly.

I have an oil burner myself (northeast WI). 

Even with a level 2 (240v) car charger installed, I'm nowhere near 100 amps.

If I went to electric heat (say the furnace failed and I had to run space heaters - which is not conjecture), I likely wouldn't be able to charge the car at the same time.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi folks,

Good grief, they are everywhere.  What will we do:   “The world’s first 100% electric, driver optional, connected tractor.”

Nicolas-Jay is first Oregon winery to deploy Monarch’s autonomous electric tractor - oregonlive.com

The times, they are a'changing.

Jerry Baumchen

[headoverheels 291]

First Cyber Truck crash yesterday.  I hope that the kid that caused the wreck has more than the CA minumum liability insurance for property damage -- $5k.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/heres-first-tesla-cybertruck-crash-154400452.html

 

[brenthutch 384]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/12/26/ev-demand-slows/
 

“The Biden administration’s push to entice more Americans to buy electric vehicles is falling short of expectations as consumers fret over prices, battery range and a lack of charging stations.”

An EV might be a good option for a second vehicle, if you have a garage and can charge at home. It will not be an option for anyone lacking charging infrastructure or ever needing to routinely drive greater than the full charge range of the vehicle.  Really, does anyone want to spend hours waiting to “refuel” their vehicle?  This simple reality is reflected in the slowing growth in EV demand.

[JoeWeber 2,302]

20 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/12/26/ev-demand-slows/
 

“The Biden administration’s push to entice more Americans to buy electric vehicles is falling short of expectations as consumers fret over prices, battery range and a lack of charging stations.”

An EV might be a good option for a second vehicle, if you have a garage and can charge at home. It will not be an option for anyone lacking charging infrastructure or ever needing to routinely drive greater than the full charge range of the vehicle.  Really, does anyone want to spend hours waiting to “refuel” their vehicle?  This simple reality is reflected in the slowing growth in EV demand.

I don't want to wait hours either, but if I was home more it wouldn't be an issue. A bennie for my chief pilot is charging his beamer at work. Also I sleep, intermittently sure, at night and wouldn't count that as wait time. More importantly, I fricken hate car road trips. Couple hours to the coast or the desert is plenty long enough for me so the whole waiting to refuel rigamarole wouldn't fit my program. Really, for as much of yourself as you've revealed, it wouldn't much hamper you either. And you are home more.

[brenthutch 384]

27 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I don't want to wait hours either, but if I was home more it wouldn't be an issue. A bennie for my chief pilot is charging his beamer at work. Also I sleep, intermittently sure, at night and wouldn't count that as wait time. More importantly, I fricken hate car road trips. Couple hours to the coast or the desert is plenty long enough for me so the whole waiting to refuel rigamarole wouldn't fit my program. Really, for as much of yourself as you've revealed, it wouldn't much hamper you either. And you are home more.

I could easily have an EV as a second vehicle runabout however the economics would not make sense. I’ll stick with my Accord coupe, V6 278hp six speed, paid off and more fun to drive than a glorified four wheel sewing machine 

[JoeWeber 2,302]

9 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I could easily have an EV as a second vehicle runabout however the economics would not make sense. I’ll stick with my Accord coupe, V6 278hp six speed, paid off and more fun to drive than a glorified four wheel sewing machine 

For sure, but the reality is that this transition isn't about you, today, a paid off car, or your own personal fun factor. It's about new technology and seeing how it can fit beneficially into a better future. Remember dial up internet? If the wizards had taken your world view we'd have ditched it and stayed with land line phones, fax machines, and 8 track tapes. You are welcome.

[brenthutch 384]

22 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

For sure, but the reality is that this transition isn't about you, today, a paid off car, or your own personal fun factor. It's about new technology and seeing how it can fit beneficially into a better future. Remember dial up internet? If the wizards had taken your world view we'd have ditched it and stayed with land line phones, fax machines, and 8 track tapes. You are welcome.

Don’t forget flying cars and personal jet packs.  BTW I don’t recall the trillion dollar government program to facilitate the transition from 8 tracks to cassettes to CDs.  I believe the market and the market alone drove those changes. Not to mention the hot new trend in music format is vinyl LPs

Edited December 31, 2023 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,302]

29 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Don’t forget flying cars and personal jet packs.  BTW I don’t recall the trillion dollar government program to facilitate the transition from 8 tracks to cassettes to CDs.  I believe the market and the market alone drove those changes. Not to mention the hot new trend in music format is vinyl LPs

Okay, so to set the table, can you imagine a single Trillion dollar government program that might be worth the gamble?

[brenthutch 384]

54 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Okay, so to set the table, can you imagine a single Trillion dollar government program that might be worth the gamble?

 

56 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Okay, so to set the table, can you imagine a single Trillion dollar government program that might be worth the gamble?

For what?

[JoeWeber 2,302]

1 minute ago, brenthutch said:

 

For what?

I was hoping for something from your imagination. Mine runs wild, as you know.

[brenthutch 384]

6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I was hoping for something from your imagination. Mine runs wild, as you know.

Save the planet? Or enriched politicians and their cronies?  The former is an unrealistic and unnecessary fantasy the latter is no gamble it is a sure bet 

[JoeWeber 2,302]

1 minute ago, brenthutch said:

Save the planet? Or enriched politicians and their cronies?  The former is an unrealistic and unnecessary fantasy the latter is no gamble it is a sure bet 

Not much imagination there mostly owing, it would seem, to a what do I get from it now mentality. Fine, I guess. Space exploration has been a winner, seems to me. As I've written here I think sending humans into space at this juncture has a crappy cost benefit ratio. However a Trillion dollar program to send serious probes to Europa and Enceladus might yield amazing discoveries with a lot of money left over to build even better telescopes than the JWST and other cool stuff. Also, we could ramp up the launch schedules and production so that multiple expensive things were happening coterminously. That's just for one angle. Sorry if you thought I'd come up with automatic curb recycling machines that also neutered stray cats.

[billvon 2,400]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

An EV might be a good option for a second vehicle, if you have a garage and can charge at home. It will not be an option for anyone lacking charging infrastructure or ever needing to routinely drive greater than the full charge range of the vehicle.  

Agreed.  It will only be an option for about 85% of Americans. 

I'd also add that the boomers out there who can't learn anything new are not going to be able to drive EVs.  Too much new technology they've never heard of.

Quote

Really, does anyone want to spend hours waiting to “refuel” their vehicle? This simple reality is reflected in the slowing growth in EV demand.

You waste more time gassing up your car than I do charging my EV. 

But if you have time to waste, and you like the loud noises it makes, gas cars are great.  My time is more valuable than that.

[wmw999 2,123]

10 hours ago, billvon said:

I’d also add that the boomers out there who can't learn anything new are not going to be able to drive EVs.  Too much new technology they've never heard of.

I have a friend who’s 91 who bought herself an EV earlier this year. Had to get an outlet installed, but she really wanted to try out the new technology.

She’s my “how to age” idol. Always put something in front of yourself to head towards.

Wendy P. 

[kallend 1,626]

23 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I have a friend who’s 91 who bought herself an EV earlier this year. Had to get an outlet installed, but she really wanted to try out the new technology.

She’s my “how to age” idol. Always put something in front of yourself to head towards.

Wendy P. 

At 91 she's not a boomer.  (Neither am I, born too soon.)

[brenthutch 384]

11 hours ago, billvon said:

Agreed.  It will only be an option for about 85% of Americans. 

I'd also add that the boomers out there who can't learn anything new are not going to be able to drive EVs.  Too much new technology they've never heard of.

You waste more time gassing up your car than I do charging my EV. 

But if you have time to waste, and you like the loud noises it makes, gas cars are great.  My time is more valuable than that.

Do you charge at home or at a charging station?…..That’s what I thought.

BTW only around 60% of drivers have access to a garage or carport.  On a road-trip I start pumping, hit the bathroom, grab a coffee and I am back on the road in five minutes. While EV drivers twiddle their thumbs for hours while they wait to recharge.  That is one of the reasons why around half of EV buyers go back to a normal car for their next purchase.

Tesla owners waiting to recharge 

Edited December 31, 2023 by brenthutch

[Phil1111 911]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Do you charge at home or at a charging station?…..That’s what I thought.

BTW only around 60% of drivers have access to a garage or carport.Where did I get the idea that a carport or garage was necessary to hold a charging outlet?  On a road-trip I start pumping expensive gas, hit the bathroom, grab a coffee and I am back on the road in five minutes. While EV drivers twiddle their thumbs for minutes while they wait to recharge.  That is one of the reasons why around half of EV buyers go back to a normal car for their next purchase. Oh Bent! bending the facts again! 90% of electric vehicle owners say they would purchase one again, survey says Why do I always confuse 50% with 90%?? My math is sooo bad!

Tesla owners networking and saving MONEY

FIFY

[brenthutch 384]

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2023/10/19/nearly-half-of-ev-households-reverted-to-ice-vehicle-for-next-purchase-study-shows/
 

excluding Tesla fan-boyz

From the DoT

“Level 1

Level 1 equipment provides charging through a common residential 120-volt (120V) AC outlet. Level 1 chargers can take 40-50+ hours to charge a BEV to 80 percent from empty 

Level 2

Level 2 equipment offers higher-rate AC charging through 240V (in residential applications) or 208V (in commercial applications) electrical service, and is common for home, workplace, and public charging. Level 2 chargers can charge a BEV to 80 percent from empty in 4-10 hours”

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by brenthutch