Canopy Piloting Regulation (split from Fatality Georgia 3/18/2023)

[JumpRu 14]

1 hour ago, sundevil777 said:

How will you get the greatest risk takers to not push the envelope?  Of course results would be much better.  
 

So I think it is clear that people who want to  learn swoop not always getting adequate info of what and how to do. Maybe general canopy course is not enough? I really think that one who is serious about this should have someone watching every single swoop till one get proficient... That has to be up to individual to get adequate instructions you can't force them. Whatever cost of such training would be it will be far less then hospital bills and lost wages.

Now about risk takers not to push the envelop... Reality is that lots of people with small canopies don't even swoop, I see every weekend lots of folks on 70 sqft doing 90 on landing. I would not call this swooping... And they sure not pushing the envelop of those wings cos those canopies can do much better with larger turns. But when that low 90 goes to shit everyone blame swooping that it is not the case here.

Clearly there are people who swoop and I respect that but I think everyone who does need to ask themself a question what is the goal and how that can be done safer. I recently upsized from 84 after many many years of jumping those canopies to 103 and that is the best decision I made for myself. My goal is to jump as long as I possibly can and if I have to upsized again - I will do it. All that is very personal and everyone are different but I am 100 percent sure that most people don't refer to themself as risk takers, they just want to have little fun and be safe.

Professional athletes - that is totally different story, I know nothing about that. But from what I can tell they are not a part of the issue.

Edited July 13, 2023 by JumpRu

[BMAC615 205]

4 hours ago, JumpRu said:

Now about risk takers not to push the envelop... Reality is that lots of people with small canopies don't even swoop, I see every weekend lots of folks on 70 sqft doing 90 on landing. I would not call this swooping... And they sure not pushing the envelop of those wings cos those canopies can do much better with larger turns. But when that low 90 goes to shit everyone blame swooping that it is not the case here.

You bring up an interesting subject of the semantics of “swoop.” I’ll throw it to everyone in this thread: “What is a swoop and why do skydivers swoop?”

[wmw999 2,122]

I sure as shit would call a 90mph landing a swoop,  as long as that’s forward and not downward speed. It’s like saying someone with only 100 jumps isn’t a real skydiver.

Wendy P. 

[sfzombie13 307]

yeah, we need to get a definition ironed out then because i'd call it a swoop at 90mph regardless of the wind direction.  i'd also call anything with a turn into landing a swoop, like when it was mentioned that merely a 90 isn't a swoop. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

12 hours ago, JumpRu said:

Reality is that lots of people with small canopies don't even swoop, I see every weekend lots of folks on 70 sqft doing 90 on landing

Every weekend? Bullshit. WTF,  you think we all just snuck in under the packing tent?  Go away. Here's reality: at our DZ a very accomplished, but older jumper, was denied the chance to jump his brand new $8000 rig with a 70sqft main parachute. Seriously, you do not know jack. 

Yes, I'm on the other side of the fence now but my mentors, like Wyatt and others who knew things, always counseled newbies like me to take it slow and bail early. And he did it swooping my pond. Slaton in 1993, I think, showed me that huge speed could be had with a simple, and safe, 180. 

Sorry, but I have real world reasons for not thinking your observations have any value.

 

[JumpRu 14]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Every weekend? Bullshit. WTF,  you think we all just snuck in under the packing tent?  Go away. Here's reality: at our DZ a very accomplished, but older jumper, was denied the chance to jump his brand new $8000 rig with a 70sqft main parachute. Seriously, you do not know jack. 

 

Not having a good day or something? All I was trying to say is that ppl who land in main area not allowed to do more then 90 so they don't swoop by making big turns instead they all got those pocket rockets and can go pretty quick just after double fronts and 90 turn.  all that look pretty but not pushing the performance envelope. You would never see any of that technique used in actual swoop competition. Would that qualify to be swoop or not? I don't think so, to me this is just what small canopy does, but you may think differently.

Edited July 14, 2023 by JumpRu

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 hours ago, JumpRu said:

Not having a good day or something? All I was trying to say is that ppl who land in main area not allowed to do more then 90 so they don't swoop by making big turns instead they all got those pocket rockets and can go pretty quick just after double fronts and 90 turn.  all that look pretty but not pushing the performance envelope. You would never see any of that technique used in actual swoop competition. Would that qualify to be swoop or not? I don't think so, to me this is just what small canopy does, but you may think differently.

You said this: Reality is that lots of people with small canopies don't even swoop, I see every weekend lots of folks on 70 sqft doing 90 on landing. I said Bullshit. Whatever the number of people who even have 70sqft canopies is for sure that number isn't lot's and not a lot of them do 90's. 

[JumpRu 14]

50 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You said this: Reality is that lots of people with small canopies don't even swoop, I see every weekend lots of folks on 70 sqft doing 90 on landing. I said Bullshit. Whatever the number of people who even have 70sqft canopies is for sure that number isn't lot's and not a lot of them do 90's. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02Lj3vys3P46Jqm9xeQpTTso7u55CTJBcM74QqqszRheiUP1BEauv7eikJXFtx5GpHl&id=100002120381543&mibextid=Nif5oz

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by JumpRu

[wmw999 2,122]

I think my question is: if someone jumping a pocket rocket lands with a 70mph long final landing path, and one of his admiring buddies says “nice swoop,” are they going to say “oh, I’m not swooping.” Unless, of course, it’s like the scene in “Crocodile Dundee,” where he says “you call that a knife? Now THIS is a knife!” 

Wendy P. 

[BMAC615 205]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:54 AM, JumpRu said:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02Lj3vys3P46Jqm9xeQpTTso7u55CTJBcM74QqqszRheiUP1BEauv7eikJXFtx5GpHl&id=100002120381543&mibextid=Nif5oz

 

I think your sentiment is correct, but a little hyperbolic. There aren’t a lot of people who jump 70 sq ft canopies and most that do opt for the swoop lane. However, a lot in the sub 100 category do comply with the “no more than 90 rule” and aren’t pushing their canopies to the limit.

However, even people flying sub 100s and doing simple 90s have been severely injured as a result.

[JumpRu 14]

8 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

I think your sentiment is correct, but a little hyperbolic. There aren’t a lot of people who jump 70 sq ft canopies and most that do opt for the swoop lane. However, a lot in the sub 100 category do comply with the “no more than 90 rule” and aren’t pushing their canopies to the limit.

However, even people flying sub 100s and doing simple 90s have been severely injured as a result.

I think you need 79 to join cool kids club, I don't know for sure cos I am not cool enough.

I only can share my own opinion, and since I am not swoop champion or anything like that it probably not worth much.. so take it for what that is.. but I find 90 to be one of the most difficult turns and one of the most dangerous too. Cos u have to do it low and there is very thin line between oh waw and oh shit. 180 does not sound any better too  cos u literally flying away from where u going to land, that does not feel right. I do  understand that in traffic 90 degree turns helps to avoid canopy collisions but if u ask me what turn is safer for swoop I would say 270 is better then 90/180. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by JumpRu

[BMAC615 205]

2 hours ago, JumpRu said:

I think you need 79 to join cool kids club, I don't know for sure cos I am not cool enough.

I only can share my own opinion, and since I am not swoop champion or anything like that it probably not worth much.. so take it for what that is.. but I find 90 to be one of the most difficult turns and one of the most dangerous too. Cos u have to do it low and there is very thin line between oh waw and oh shit. 180 does not sound any better too  cos u literally flying away from where u going to land, that does not feel right. I do  understand that in traffic 90 degree turns helps to avoid canopy collisions but if u ask me what turn is safer for swoop I would say 270 is better then 90/180. 

I think you’re on the right track that there is a culture of a small canopy Cool Kid’s Club. But, maybe it’s worth exploring why that is.

Skydiving (free fall) is an inherently terrible spectator sport. It’s really difficult for someone on the ground to judge who is the best in the sky. It’s pretty easy to watch people land and make a judgement of skill. It’s pretty easy to decipher a student from an instructor. What’s the difference? The instructor often flys a small canopy and swoops in.

Since the late 80s/early 90s, The Cool Kids almost always flew small canopies and did a low turn and swooped in. I used to watch Craig Girard kick a pine cone from the top of a tall pine tree as he swooped in over the packing area at Raeford in the mid-90s. I also watched a guy try to mimic him, but he misjudged the approach and crashed into the tree and fell 30 feet, sustaining pretty serious injuries.

A lot of the injuries and deaths we have seen over the years resulting from low turns are often people trying to be part of the Cool Kid Club. The Cool Kid Club is deeply inherent in the culture of the skydiving community and as long as the Cool Kid Club exists, people will continue to literally die to be a part of it.

Edited July 16, 2023 by BMAC615

[BMAC615 205]

Interesting discussion on swooping in the Reddit Skydiving sub.

[swoopgirl 0]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:56 AM, JoeWeber said:

Hey you, how are you? Those were some big fun years, that's a fact. I truly hope you are doing fantastic and still having some great swoops wherever you have landed.

Doing great Joe thanks! And same to you! Into ground launching/speedflying... the endless swoop! Cheers!! 

[riggerrob 558]

On 7/15/2023 at 6:17 PM, JumpRu said:

" ... but I find 90 to be one of the most difficult turns and one of the most dangerous too. Cos u have to do it low and there is very thin line between oh waw and oh shit. ... 

Agreed!

The most dangerous turn is a low altitude, 90 degree toggle-whip. The canopy does a steep dive towards the dirt as it tries to regain equilibrium/stable flight. That recovery arc is long and difficult to predict. It takes hundreds of turns to fine-tune toggle-whip turns. The canopy may or may not recover before impact. Toggle-hooks were fashionable among the "Stiletto pilots" frequenting Perris Valley 30 years ago. Too many of them left the DZ in ambulances.

Later we learned that front-riser turns result in less altitude loss and provide more opportunities to "bail out" of a poor approach.

That is why modern swoopers use a combination of toggles, front risers, rear risers, steering toggles and leg-strap inputs to fine-tune their speed-increasing turns.

[JumpRu 14]

7 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Agreed!

The most dangerous turn is a low altitude, 90 degree toggle-whip. The canopy does a steep dive towards the dirt as it tries to regain equilibrium/stable flight. That recovery arc is long and difficult to predict. It takes hundreds of turns to fine-tune toggle-whip turns. The canopy may or may not recover before impact. Toggle-hooks were fashionable among the "Stiletto pilots" frequenting Perris Valley 30 years ago. Too many of them left the DZ in ambulances.

Later we learned that front-riser turns result in less altitude loss and provide more opportunities to "bail out" of a poor approach.

That is why modern swoopers use a combination of toggles, front risers, rear risers, steering toggles and leg-strap inputs to fine-tune their speed-increasing turns.

Toggle turn probably the worse, but unfortunately front riser 90 is not a whole lot better. Quick and easy "solutions" (like limit turns to 90 or 180) for high performance flight will not help at all. There is nothing wrong with no more than 90 rule for common landing area and conservative approach but for high performance flight that turn is not the easiest.

 

[BMAC615 205]

I was around in the early 90s when the toggle vs front riser debate was happening. I learned, first hand, the result of a low 90 toggle turn. I was lucky to have made the mistake on a PD 170 w/ a WL of 1.2 into very soft mud. That day, I also learned why a 90 front riser turn is exponentially less risky than a 90 toggle turn. A front riser turn accelerates half the canopy while a toggle turn stalls half the canopy - leaving you with reduced response while the canopy is recovering.

The most dangerous is stall surged 90s that stall the entire canopy low to the ground.

How did this become a thing? Well, DZOs said no turns greater than 90*. What did people do? Stall surge a 90*. People got hurt and a 90* approach is now believed to be “super dangerous.”

I’ve seen two trends in the “swooping ether.” You must downsize before you start doing high performance landings and you must stall surge the canopy to get a good swoop. I believe these beliefs are contributors to the recent rise in injuries and deaths.

Learning how to do a non-surged, straight double front approach, then single 15 front then 30, 45, 60, 75 and then 90 on a WL no greater than 1.2 is way better than what is being taught today of going straight to learning how to stall surge a 270* turn at a WL > 1.2. Stall surged approaches of any degree at any WL are exponentially more dangerous than a simple 90 front.

Edited July 25, 2023 by BMAC615

[JumpRu 14]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:02 AM, BMAC615 said:

 

Learning how to do a non-surged, straight double front approach, then single 15 front then 30, 45, 60, 75 and then 90 on a WL no greater than 1.2 is way better than what is being taught today of going straight to learning how to stall surge a 270* turn at a WL > 1.2. Stall surged approaches of any degree at any WL are exponentially more dangerous than a simple 90 front.

I don't teach swoop, I believe people who serious about it must seek good solid instructions from professionals. Having said that there is nothing more scary then watch those new people trying to learn swoop on conventional lightly loaded canopy. There is nothing wrong to learn mechanics up high on any canopy, but problem is they quickly pass that stage and start trying it for real thinking that it is safe cos they don't do big turns and on large canopy. Last guy who was doing it broke everything possible on gigantic 9 cell canopy. That sort of got me thinking that best approach for someone is to wait with swoop thing till person is flying something that can be swooped easy. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by JumpRu

[BMAC615 205]

6 hours ago, JumpRu said:

I don't teach swoop, I believe people who serious about it must seek good solid instructions from professionals. Having said that there is nothing more scary than watch those new people trying to learn swoop on conventional lightly loaded canopy. There is nothing wrong to learn mechanics up high on any canopy, but problem is they quickly pass that stage and start trying it for real thinking that it is safe cos they don't do big turns and on large canopy. Last guy who was doing it broke everything possible on gigantic 9 cell canopy. That sort of got me thinking that best approach for someone is to wait with swoop thing till person is flying something that can be swooped easy. 

That’s a pretty common belief. However, it encourages what you originally criticized: People rapidly downsizing and trying high performance landings before they have the necessary skills.

If you can’t maximize the performance of a canopy with a WL of < 1.2 with a simple 90*  front riser approach, you shouldn’t be doing a 270* on a WL of 1.2+.

[JumpRu 14]

2 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

That’s a pretty common belief. However, it encourages what you originally criticized: People rapidly downsizing and trying high performance landings before they have the necessary skills.

If you can’t maximize the performance of a canopy with a WL of < 1.2 with a simple 90*  front riser approach, you shouldn’t be doing a 270* on a WL of 1.2+.

I really think there is fine line for this, one can practice anything up high on any canopy but trying to get anything good out of it down below on actual landing if it is 1.2 or even 1.5 is scary... I also don't believe in small turns 90-180 they are or used to be step in progression but in my opinion they are more difficult/dangerous then let's say 270. I don't teach swoop, but I saw one guy learning it and I feel like that is very smart and relativity safe way. In short, he was videographer at my old DZ, so he was already good skydiver with many jumps, he was jumping alot back then and that was large landing area with not too heavy canopy traffic. Anyway he got himself something like velo 90 and I doubt he even loaded it higher then 1.8. maybe 2.0. so he started to do 270 and every single time I saw him doing it he was super high, literally to the point when there was nothing left from whatever extra speed he got from the swoop. I was wondering myself what the heck? But he was very consistent in what he was doing and after like 100 jumps or so he lowered it so now he was not super high - just high... And he made another 200 or so jumps like that. Then in about half year or something he got it good and consistent and from that point on he was always right on the money. I feel like that was very smart way to learn things. I have no idea what kind of instruments he used, but if I would suggest it to someone I would probably mentioned optima 2 and GoPro. So one can try consistent altitudes for swoop pattern and initiation point and use GoPro to time the turn. Idea is that one has to be consistent - same turn takes same time and same altitude every single time.once u get consistent u can lower all altitudes little by little. But that is just my opinion, maybe there are better ways to do things.

Edited July 27, 2023 by JumpRu

[wmw999 2,122]

I can remember SkymonkeyOne, a swooper, saying “I can swoop the shit out of a Navigator.” I’ve seen people swoop seven-cells (not brilliantly by modern standards, but they walked away.” Part of learning swooping is learning the specific canopy-human combination; where someone who weighs 100 lbs more starts their turn is probably different, too.

So I’ll come down on the side of “better to learn the mechanics with a more forgiving canopy.” If one wants to focus on swooping, then one with good swooping mechanics (not stilettos or navigators), but of a size to allow for the inevitable mistakes

Wendy P.

[BMAC615 205]

11 hours ago, JumpRu said:

I also don't believe in small turns 90-180 they are or used to be step in progression but in my opinion they are more difficult/dangerous then let's say 270.

What evidence do you have that makes you believe this is true?

[JumpRu 14]

I don't have time to provide evidence, all I can do is to share some of my thoughts, I am not saying don't do 90, but I would not spend too much effort on that. To get that perfect u have to do it lower, much lower then say 270, and that is kinda all or nothing turn, u initiate it and have very little chances to fix it it it not correct.

Edited July 27, 2023 by JumpRu

[chuckakers 370]

Much of the content in this thread is ridiculous, incorrect, and deadly. I would encourage anyone wanting to learn high performance canopy flight techniques to seek the advice of a professional canopy instructor and ONLY a professional canopy instructor.

Swooping is damn dangerous. Learning from the keyboard is a recipe for death.

[BMAC615 205]

4 hours ago, chuckakers said:

Much of the content in this thread is ridiculous, incorrect, and deadly. I would encourage anyone wanting to learn high performance canopy flight techniques to seek the advice of a professional canopy instructor and ONLY a professional canopy instructor.

Swooping is damn dangerous. Learning from the keyboard is a recipe for death.

Totally agree that people should seek advice of competent professional canopy instructor. Care to point out what you believe is ridiculous, incorrect and deadly?