Canopy Piloting Regulation (split from Fatality Georgia 3/18/2023)

[chuckakers 370]

2 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

Totally agree that people should seek advice of competent professional canopy instructor. Care to point out what you believe is ridiculous, incorrect and deadly?

Nope. That will only cause more sketchy opinions in reply. My point was and is obvious. Swooping is an extremely dangerous activity even when conducted by the highest skilled pilots. My sincere advice to everyone is to get professional canopy coaching, especially anyone planning on or doing high performance landings.

[chuckakers 370]

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Edited July 28, 2023 by chuckakers

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 hours ago, chuckakers said:

Nope. That will only cause more sketchy opinions in reply. My point was and is obvious. Swooping is an extremely dangerous activity even when conducted by the highest skilled pilots. My sincere advice to everyone is to get professional canopy coaching, especially anyone planning on or doing high performance landings.

I knew you would do that just as you did the same thing to me in private mail. Be brave Chuck.

[BMAC615 205]

1 hour ago, chuckakers said:

Nope. That will only cause more sketchy opinions in reply. My point was and is obvious. Swooping is an extremely dangerous activity even when conducted by the highest skilled pilots. My sincere advice to everyone is to get professional canopy coaching, especially anyone planning on or doing high performance landings.

It’s difficult to disagree with your response. However, conversations like this one are happening at nearly all 220 of USPA’s affiliate DZs, online and elsewhere. The data reveals some are not getting appropriate training before engaging in high performance landings. Some are also operating way outside USPA’s WL recommendations. Why is that? Weekend warriors like @JumpRu, AFFIs, TIs, and others who are not professional canopy coaches, are giving their opinions and advising jumpers on gear and canopy flight progression. There doesn’t seem to be a consistent, commonly accepted, message when it comes to gear and canopy flight progression.

I’d like to point out that my suggestion of focusing on smaller turns on bigger canopies minimizes the kinetic energy in the system and is consistent with the teaching of Flight-1, Brian Germain and other “Big Name” coaches.

Many skydivers are taking a course or two from a big name canopy coach and considering that “good enough” to justify flying smaller and smaller canopies and making bigger and bigger turns. Further, the professional “big name” canopy coaches have a financial incentive to ignore canopy choices that fall outside the USPA WL recommendations and move people through their course agenda toward increasingly higher WL and increasingly higher risk approaches and into the extremely dangerous activity of swooping.

Lastly, “big name” canopy courses are taught almost exclusively by canopy pilot competitors. It might be time USPA revisit the idea of a canopy pilot coach rating that lays out a USPA endorsed consistent, commonly accepted, message when it comes to gear and canopy flight progression.

[gowlerk 1,914]

8 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

Lastly, “big name” canopy courses are taught almost exclusively by canopy pilot competitors. It might be time USPA revisit the idea of a canopy pilot coach rating that lays out a USPA endorsed consistent, commonly accepted, message when it comes to gear and canopy flight progression.

On the one hand Chuck's correct in strongly encouraging good training if one is going to play this unforgiving game. On the other hand you are correct because there is no such thing as "professional training" for this. What we all are wrestling with is that the leadership of USPA clearly states..

11 hours ago, chuckakers said:

My point was and is obvious. Swooping is an extremely dangerous activity even when conducted by the highest skilled pilots.

And he is correct. Yet USPA ( and FAI and CSPA etc.) popularizes and promotes and encourages this aspect of the sport.

[JumpRu 14]

On 7/27/2023 at 8:09 AM, wmw999 said:

I can remember SkymonkeyOne, a swooper, saying “I can swoop the shit out of a Navigator.” I’ve seen people swoop seven-cells (not brilliantly by modern standards, but they walked away.” Part of learning swooping is learning the specific canopy-human combination; where someone who weighs 100 lbs more starts their turn is probably different, too.

So I’ll come down on the side of “better to learn the mechanics with a more forgiving canopy.” If one wants to focus on swooping, then one with good swooping mechanics (not stilettos or navigators), but of a size to allow for the inevitable mistakes

Wendy P.

List of people who did swoop Navigator is very short for a reason - that must be very difficult :)

Edited July 28, 2023 by JumpRu

[BMAC615 205]

52 minutes ago, JumpRu said:

List of people who did swoop Navigator is very short for a reason - that must be very difficult :)

 

[JumpRu 14]

13 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

It’s difficult to disagree with your response. However, conversations like this one are happening at nearly all 220 of USPA’s affiliate DZs, online and elsewhere. The data reveals some are not getting appropriate training before engaging in high performance landings. Some are also operating way outside USPA’s WL recommendations. Why is that? Weekend warriors like @JumpRu, AFFIs, TIs, and others who are not professional canopy coaches, are giving their opinions and advising jumpers on gear and canopy flight progression. There doesn’t seem to be a consistent, commonly accepted, message when it comes to gear and canopy flight progression.

 

I think I mentioned like twice that I don't teach swoop

 

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I’d like to point out that my suggestion of focusing on smaller turns on bigger canopies minimizes the kinetic energy in the system and is consistent with the teaching of Flight-1, Brian Germain and other “Big Name” coaches.

 

Last guy who tried swooping big canopy doing small turn is now learning to walk again. And yes he did the course about it shortly before the crash. 

Was that bad course, hell no! I am kinda getting tired with this discussion that already turned personal, but I will leave you with one more example:

 

So let's say some one give me JFX2 99 for a day (I never jumped that model before but I can swoop similar size velo). I will be swooping the heck out of it by sunset. If someone gives me any 9 cell larger then 109 and ask me to swoop it... I will return it politely cos that is just not safe for me. 

Someone mentioned Navigator 220 swoop before... I saw that video, I don't have skills or patience to even try that stunt... 

 

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Edited July 28, 2023 by JumpRu

[BMAC615 205]

52 minutes ago, JumpRu said:

 

I think I mentioned like twice that I don't teach swoop

 

 

Last guy who tried swooping big canopy doing small turn is now learning to walk again. And yes he did the course about it shortly before the crash. 

Was that bad course, hell no! I am kinda getting tired with this discussion that already turned personal, but I will leave you with one more example:

 

So let's say some one give me JFX2 99 for a day (I never jumped that model before but I can swoop similar size velo). I will be swooping the heck out of it by sunset. If someone gives me any 9 cell larger then 109 and ask me to swoop it... I will return it politely cos that is just not safe for me. 

Someone mentioned Navigator 220 swoop before... I saw that video, I don't have skills or patience to even try that stunt... 

 

 

Please don’t take any of this personal and I didn’t mean for you to interpret this conversation as a personal attack. My point is there are lots of people with lots of conflicting opinions and even “big name” canopy coaches who have conflicting opinions about how best to approach high performance landings.

Here’s my anecdotal evidence: I watched a friend at my local DZ follow the progression you outlined from a “big name” World Champion and flew himself into the ground at a CP Competition. He’s dead.

[JumpRu 14]

1 hour ago, BMAC615 said:

Please don’t take any of this personal and I didn’t mean for you to interpret this conversation as a personal attack. My point is there are lots of people with lots of conflicting opinions and even “big name” canopy coaches who have conflicting opinions about how best to approach high performance landings.

No worries 

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Here’s my anecdotal evidence: I watched a friend at my local DZ follow the progression you outlined from a “big name” World Champion and flew himself into the ground at a CP Competition. He’s dead.

You do realize that there are light years of difference between learning to swoop, swooping and participating in CP competition?

I don't do competitions and I honestly think competitions like that are not for everyone. Even participation in such activity requires a lot more then simply been able to swoop. That is just my opinion so please don't criticize me too bad for it :)

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by JumpRu

[BMAC615 205]

3 hours ago, JumpRu said:

No worries 

You do realize that there are light years of difference between learning to swoop, swooping and participating in CP competition?

I don't do competitions and I honestly think competitions like that are not for everyone. Even participation in such activity requires a lot more then simply been able to swoop. That is just my opinion so please don't criticize me too bad for it :)

 

 

 

I think we are, at the core, in agreement: Downsizing prematurely is bad and skydivers should seek competent canopy instruction before learning to “swoop.”

What I think this conversation has highlighted is that there are many opinions, even amongst “professional canopy coaches,” of how to approach “swooping.” Heck, most skydivers can’t even agree on “what is swooping.” Also, the high performance canopy culture encourages aspiring skydivers to “swoop” and, regardless of if they are getting instruction from “professional canopy coaches,” they are getting injured and killed.

Lastly, there is no instructor qualification program to help aspiring skydivers to identify who is and who is not qualified to give advice regarding canopy gear and flight progression.