Canopy Piloting Regulation (split from Fatality Georgia 3/18/2023)

[BMAC615 205]

14 minutes ago, base615 said:

No, thank fuck

Cool.

[sfzombie13 307]

16 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Tell them to go back and read the 4 articles that Annette O'Neil published - on dz.com - back during the autumn of 2016. I researched those articles, then handed the data to Annette because I was exhausted from a 9-year-long court trial about a King Air crash back in 2008. We learned a bloody lesson back in 1992 and there is no reason to repeat those mistakes.

Smart skydivers learn from the bloody mistakes made by others.

i was referring to seatbelts in cars.  i don't know anyone who doesn't wear one in a plane on the ride to altitude.

[skybytch 259]

On 5/27/2023 at 6:52 PM, riggerrob said:

15 years ago, the problem was that many young jumpers were already exceeding any wing-loading guidelines that USPA was likely to publish, so USPA politicians tried to find a "soft" response ... or "grandfather" those jumpers who were heavily-loading their canopies.

As usual, politicians were behind the fashion and trying to introduce solutions that were so luke-warm that they bordered on toothless.

Junior jumpers are always going to try to down-size too fast - quoting the "mad skills." Only DZOs can say "you can't jump that tiny canopy here." DZOs will only limit wing-loadings when they fear that ambulances and hearses will interrupt their regular business.

This was argued long and hard here 15 years ago. The problem was USPA doing nothing for hundreds of deaths and injuries over the preceding decade and then doing as little as possible to "fix" the issue with "education" when members were asking for changes with teeth that would create measurable positive results.

It appears that they have continued to do as little as possible in the realm of education ever since, and those who cared 15 years ago gave up. (I did)

 

[skybytch 259]

"Here are a couple more areas we agree: A BSR for WL restrictions is impractical. What’s an S&TA gonna do, make someone get on a scale and declare a canopy size before manifesting? Further, the liability for a DZ and USPA is too great if someone were to operate outside the WL restrictions. Also, a ban on swooping won’t work either. There are too many people within the skydiving political structure who are financially entangled with swooping for a ban to get any support.

So, the only thing to do is to call on those with influence to change the culture the same way they did with low pulls."

 

Disagree strongly that a WL BSR for low experience jumpers would not be practical.

Get a new rig/main? Get on the same scale used for students. Signed off in logbook, good to go. Show up at a new dz, it's part of the waiver process, same as showing a data card and seal.

Prove you have the experience and you can go auger yourself in all you want under whatever canopy you choose. If the DZO is cool with it.

The culture won't change because those with influence also have a financial stake in the continued sales of said canopies.

Edited May 30, 2023 by skybytch

[gowlerk 1,908]

24 minutes ago, skybytch said:

The culture won't change because those with influence also have a financial stake in the continued sales of said canopies.

No, that is far too simple and very unfair. The culture exists because a large subset of skydivers enjoys the thrill and even the danger of HP landings. Some of the most influential skydivers are among this group because they are among the most experienced and dedicated jumpers. Many are staff, instructors, and DZOs. USPA could and I think should stop promoting this aspect of the sport. But any effort to ban it can only come from DZOs who are unwilling to deal with the injuries that learning the needed skills cause. Any move to sharply curtail it by USPA would immediately result in a huge schism within the sport with DZs owned by swoopers and their supporters leaving USPA. Only so much can be done realistically.   

[JoeWeber 2,297]

9 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

Cool.

What a freakin' doof I am. Thanks for asking him.

[base615 77]

16 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

What a freakin' doof I am. Thanks for asking him.

I have traveled to the US for jumping many times. Sadly, the rest of the world is affected by the land of the unfree, in skydiving and other things. At least for the time being.

[BMAC615 205]

5 hours ago, base615 said:

I have traveled to the US for jumping many times. Sadly, the rest of the world is affected by the land of the unfree, in skydiving and other things. At least for the time being.

How would you be affected if USPA de-prioritized the support and promotion of CP activities?

[JoeWeber 2,297]

11 hours ago, base615 said:

I have traveled to the US for jumping many times. Sadly, the rest of the world is affected by the land of the unfree, in skydiving and other things. At least for the time being.

Down came the squatter mounted on his thorough-bred
Up came the troopers one, two, three
"Where's that jolly swooper you've got in your Caravan?
You'll come a Waltzing Matilda with me"

 

[JumpRu 14]

I swoop every single jump for 15+ years, and what you guys are saying makes very little sense. There is HUGE difference between someone how takes methodical approach to this and someone who just decides to pull on fronts and crash, someone who just decide to go swoop the pond like big boys or someone who downsize to look cool..... I am sorry if one shows any signs of common sense and intelegence then swooping is very safe.. unfortunately common sense and patience are rare qualities now days... But that has nothing to do with discipline of swooping.

[BMAC615 205]

2 hours ago, JumpRu said:

I swoop every single jump for 15+ years, and what you guys are saying makes very little sense. There is HUGE difference between someone how takes methodical approach to this and someone who just decides to pull on fronts and crash, someone who just decide to go swoop the pond like big boys or someone who downsize to look cool..... I am sorry if one shows any signs of common sense and intelegence then swooping is very safe.. unfortunately common sense and patience are rare qualities now days... But that has nothing to do with discipline of swooping.

By your logic, because Sean Chuma has more than 7,000 BASE jumps and hasn’t died, BASE jumping is very safe, right?

Swooping is not very safe and that attitude is what has kept it the number one killer and number one cause of serious injuries year over year.

You think the intentional low turn injuries and deaths are only stupid people with no common sense or training?

Edited July 12, 2023 by BMAC615

[JumpRu 14]

If u filter out low turns done by people who has no clue what swooping is, no clue of how and when to do it, had not done hundreds jumps to find safe altitudes for it (making low turns without all that and more is REALLY STUPID) and u filter out people who thinks that flying absolute smallest wing they can land somehow makes them better pilot REALLY Stupid too) then I can assure you that by itself would bring swooping injuries well under average for skydiving. 

[sfzombie13 307]

and if you take students, swoopers, and old people out of the equation, then skydiving in general is very safe.  unrealistic but safe.  of course that's not how we do things but by all means adjust the data to fit your preconceived notions.

[wmw999 2,120]

Skydiving is not safe. Risks can be managed, but it’s not safe, because shit happens, and it’s more likely that shit happening during skydiving will hurt you than in many (most for most of us) activities.

Swooping is even less safe, but risks can also be managed there. That includes education, good choices in canopy, and good choices in when and where to swoop. Probably a lot more than that, but I don’t swoop.

Wendy P. 

[JumpRu 14]

55 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

and if you take students, swoopers, and old people out of the equation, then skydiving in general is very safe.  unrealistic but safe.  of course that's not how we do things but by all means adjust the data to fit your preconceived notions.

U obviously want to argue... But my point is that like any other activity one has to do at least some homework before attempting to "swoop" including proper gear, proper training proper conditions... 90 percent of injured people did not do that. Another 9 percent are people who just got to go big, be next champion and etc... I honestly know very little about it but it seems to me that it probably takes lots of jumps and lots of training to fly at that level, but many people think that first step is to get that 79VK as if that would bring them closer to their goal.

[JoeWeber 2,297]

2 hours ago, JumpRu said:

U obviously want to argue... But my point is that like any other activity one has to do at least some homework before attempting to "swoop" including proper gear, proper training proper conditions... 90 percent of injured people did not do that. Another 9 percent are people who just got to go big, be next champion and etc... I honestly know very little about it but it seems to me that it probably takes lots of jumps and lots of training to fly at that level, but many people think that first step is to get that 79VK as if that would bring them closer to their goal.

Then please tell us how to take the many injuries and fatalities out of swooping. Imagine you operate a DZ where your 90% who are eventually injured learn to jump. How would you organize things? What criteria would you use to say yes to one and no to another? How much energy and what percent of your time would you think is right to spend on managing the desires of swoopers compared to the rest of your business?

[BMAC615 205]

2 hours ago, JumpRu said:

U obviously want to argue... But my point is that like any other activity one has to do at least some homework before attempting to "swoop" including proper gear, proper training proper conditions... 90 percent of injured people did not do that. Another 9 percent are people who just got to go big, be next champion and etc... I honestly know very little about it but it seems to me that it probably takes lots of jumps and lots of training to fly at that level, but many people think that first step is to get that 79VK as if that would bring them closer to their goal.

The impetus of this thread was a fatality of a very skilled and accomplished canopy pilot. We can agree that many (most) of the injuries and deaths are people who watch the accomplished canopy pilots and rush and/or skip steps to do high performance landings.

AND THAT’S THE PROBLEM.

There are a lot of people who minimize the risk involved in high performance landings which leads some people go into it without recognizing how little margin of error one has. Further, the very accomplished canopy pilots have a financial incentive to allow/encourage people to rush and/or skip steps. It is extremely rare for a canopy coach or school to tell people they aren’t ready for the course they just signed up for or to have a very difficult conversation about their canopy progression choices.

Too many people think they are doing the homework and have a false sense of security because “They took a couple canopy courses with a world champion” and then fly themselves into the ground.

[swoopgirl 0]

I'm here to confirm with video proof that Joe did have one of the sweetest swoop ponds around (it was almost always downwind, so super fast and super fun). I did my first water toe drags on that pond on my 59 sq ft Icarus NEOS in 2006 using a 270° turn. Here is some video of those unforgettable swoops that Wyat Drewes captured on a Sony PC5 camcorder.

https://youtu.be/edPXxEOxtJg

[swoopgirl 0]

Also, Parachutist posted a full page photo that I took of Wyat Drewes swooping Joe's pond back in 2007 shown here on my insta: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg2AhuTuraC/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That pond was so special and I have such great memories of it. Joe was one of the BIGGEST supporters of swooping back then. He must have experienced some real trauma to fill in that beautiful pond.

Cheers - Peace - and Blue Skies 

[JoeWeber 2,297]

1 hour ago, swoopgirl said:

Also, Parachutist posted a full page photo that I took of Wyat Drewes swooping Joe's pond back in 2007 shown here on my insta: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg2AhuTuraC/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That pond was so special and I have such great memories of it. Joe was one of the BIGGEST supporters of swooping back then. He must have experienced some real trauma to fill in that beautiful pond.

Cheers - Peace - and Blue Skies 

Hey you, how are you? Those were some big fun years, that's a fact. I truly hope you are doing fantastic and still having some great swoops wherever you have landed.

[sfzombie13 307]

10 hours ago, JumpRu said:

U obviously want to argue...

nope, just stating facts. 

[chuckakers 370]

14 hours ago, JumpRu said:

If u filter out low turns done by people who has no clue what swooping is, no clue of how and when to do it, had not done hundreds jumps to find safe altitudes for it (making low turns without all that and more is REALLY STUPID) and u filter out people who thinks that flying absolute smallest wing they can land somehow makes them better pilot REALLY Stupid too) then I can assure you that by itself would bring swooping injuries well under average for skydiving. 

Swooping is not safe. Swooping dangerous - damn dangerous.

 

[JoeWeber 2,297]

2 hours ago, chuckakers said:

Swooping is not safe. Swooping dangerous - damn dangerous.

 

Thanks Chuck, good to know what the president of the USPA thinks about a single aspect of the industry you lead. Perhaps, in the next issue of Parachutist, you can headline that as your own byline above the reported swooping fatalities. Maybe that would be enough to keep youngun's from aspiring to do what is on the cover page.

[JumpRu 14]

11 hours ago, chuckakers said:

Swooping is not safe. Swooping dangerous - damn dangerous.

 

Look, it is just like any other activity, take reloading for example... There are all kinds of people getting into this every year and unfortunately every year some people get in trouble (youtube has all sorts of videos about it) but with minimal effort one can easily develop safe round... It may not be super accurate at first, but just getting the book and general understanding of the process is enough not to get hurt. What happens here with swooping is like u just go to the store, get whatever components and mix them the way u like. That is what happens to beginners... Accomplished pilots makes tiny percentage of all but in every single case (if we want to be completely honest) one can easily find root cause of any particular incident. Would that be flying absolutely smallest canopy for person experience  level (why?) Or flying it in unsafe manner (who u trying to impress?) It is easy to pinpoint the cause most of the time. There are some freak accidents but even then you can probably see that winds were doing something strange... Those always will be there. Statements lile "swooping is dangerous" they really about nothing - it is like saying driving is dangerous ... and then we learn that it was super bike and it was night and rain or speed was over 200.

Edited July 13, 2023 by JumpRu

[sundevil777 93]

3 hours ago, JumpRu said:

Look, it is just like any other activity, take reloading for example... There are all kinds of people getting into this every year and unfortunately every year some people get in trouble (youtube has all sorts of videos about it) but with minimal effort one can easily develop safe round... It may not be super accurate at first, but just getting the book and general understanding of the process is enough not to get hurt. What happens here with swooping is like u just go to the store, get whatever components and mix them the way u like. That is what happens to beginners... Accomplished pilots makes tiny percentage of all but in every single case (if we want to be completely honest) one can easily find root cause of any particular incident. Would that be flying absolutely smallest canopy for person experience  level (why?) Or flying it in unsafe manner (who u trying to impress?) It is easy to pinpoint the cause most of the time. There are some freak accidents but even then you can probably see that winds were doing something strange... Those always will be there. Statements lile "swooping is dangerous" they really about nothing - it is like saying driving is dangerous ... and then we learn that it was super bike and it was night and rain or speed was over 200.

How will you get the greatest risk takers to not push the envelope?  Of course results would be much better.  

The canopy coaching market should survive on its own, without the subsidy of the current USPA B license requirement.  Nobody has talked about that.  I'm very skeptical of the overall benefit of the current canopy course requirement.

Edited July 13, 2023 by sundevil777