Abortion Commentary

[wmw999 2,146]

56 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

After that, if there is imminent physical or psychological danger to the mother; then it is between her and the doctor. 

Works for me.

Wendy P.

[gowlerk 1,923]

23 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Works for me.

Wendy P.

Except for that word "imminent" and "psychological danger to the mother". Who decides that? Who gets to end up in front of a judge or losing their right to practice medicine if they get prosecuted? As always the devil is in the details. Is Keith willing to be the one sitting in judgement of which abortions are allowable and which are not? And if not Keith then whom?

[JoeWeber 2,325]

23 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Works for me.

Wendy P.

As has been endlessly observed, how will that work? Not just for you but for everyone? What is the definition of imminent danger? So rape isn't a reason if the poor girl is too daft to know what happened? Sorry boss, I'm not buying what you are selling.

[kallend 1,646]

13 hours ago, BIGUN said:

It's been almost a year, so maybe you forgot . . . 

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/270888-president-biden-critics-corner/page/133/?tab=comments#comment-5009458

That's my line in the sand. I will not waver. 

https://lozierinstitute.org/the-science-behind-embryonic-heartbeats-a-fact-sheet/ 

Regardless of your opinion over what goes on inside a woman's body, what right do you claim to force your opinion on that person by legislation.  It's none of your business.

[kallend 1,646]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I do not believe in abortion after there is a fetal heartbeat.

After that, if there is imminent physical or psychological danger to the mother; then it is between her and the doctor. 

Now, you use the word "Agency" as a sword in the all-encompassing liberal way. Swing the label and hope the one in front of you ducks. Agency is not so much about abortion as it is about empowering her with contraceptive tools. 

gender_womens-agency-review_2020-march-05.pdf 775.04 kB · 0 downloads

So a 10 year old girl is raped, and doesn't discover that she is pregnant until after your criterion is no longer satified (yes, it happened in Ohio in 2022).  

And you  would force that child to go through a pregnancy and labor and give birth to her rapists child.

You have gone way down in my estimation.  Way way down.

[billvon 2,426]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

As has been endlessly observed, how will that work?

In practical terms, the doctor will delay treatment until the woman is so sick that death is imminent.

If, afterwards, she recovers quickly, they go to jail for performing an unneccesary abortion.

If, afterwards, she dies, they find themselves in a malpractice lawsuit.

So for the doctor, erring on the side of letting the patient die is the safer course of action.

For 99% of doctors, of course, they will simply turf the patient and refuse to treat her at all, and thus avoid the risk.  Which is one of the the goals of such laws; abortion-seekers suffering through high risk pregnancies or dying is not a bad outcome for diehard pro-life people.  Of course, there will be thoughts and prayers too.

[JoeWeber 2,325]

24 minutes ago, kallend said:

So a 10 year old girl is raped, and doesn't discover that she is pregnant until after your criterion is no longer satified (yes, it happened in Ohio in 2022).  

And you  would force that child to go through a pregnancy and labor and give birth to her rapists child.

You have gone way down in my estimation.  Way way down.

This has been his position all along. Wendy may take objection but in my opinion it was time to make him say the icky part out loud and give up the claim of being a moderate. If you would take away agency from another human being based on non-scientific, religion based beliefs, you are not a moderate, you are a part of the far right. If that's who you are so be it, just don't pretend otherwise. 

[BIGUN 1,069]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

And you  would force that child to go through a pregnancy and labor and give birth to her rapists child.

Both of you quit trying to spin shit. Rape. Incest. etc. all falls under physical and psychological trauma. 

Edited April 28 by BIGUN

[JoeWeber 2,325]

32 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Both of you quit trying to spin shit. Rape. Incest. etc. all falls under physical and psychological trauma. 

Not necessarily. That’s the problem with your don’t worry it’ll all work out because anyone can see the difference philosophy. Just out of curiosity, in your view ,there any obvious crimes that Trump committed, the prosecution of which, are being stymied by judges with an agenda? You are hoping against reality. 

[jakee 1,257]

59 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Both of you quit trying to spin shit. Rape. Incest. etc. all falls under physical and psychological trauma. 

Right - that’s exactly why when you say there’s a red line you won’t waver from it’s not a red line and you’ll actually waver so far past it that it’s out of sight.
 

So in practice in the real world, are you actually in favour of any restrictions on abortion at all? It doesn’t really sound like it. Which is not a problem, I’m just not sure why you’re trying to hide it.

[billvon 2,426]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Both of you quit trying to spin shit. Rape. Incest. etc. all falls under physical and psychological trauma. 

Agreed.  Unfortunately, the laws being passed now do not respect that distinction.  The Texas law, for example, does not make any exceptions for rape or incest.

[BIGUN 1,069]

4 minutes ago, billvon said:

Unfortunately, the laws being passed now do not respect that distinction.  The Texas law, for example, does not make any exceptions for rape or incest.

True. I was asked of my opinion, not that of Texas Law. I disagree with those states that have no exception. In fact, I'll remind those on here that I was opposed to the reversal of RvW - for these exact reasons. For me; it was better to have a national referendum that countered my opinion, than to have state laws that became egregious. 

[gowlerk 1,923]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Both of you quit trying to spin shit. Rape. Incest. etc. all falls under physical and psychological trauma. 

Quit trying to have it both ways. Your basic posistion is that abortion is homicide but justifiable for certain women who meet a certain criteria. Mostly that they be good girls, preferably victims. It is both patronizing and completely impractical. One more time, and I am asking a serious question, not a rhetorical one. Who gets to decide which cases are justifiable homicide and which ones are murder? 

Edited April 28 by gowlerk

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

... One more time, and I am asking a serious question, not a rhetorical one. Who gets to decide which cases are justifiable homicide and which ones are murder? 

Men.

Men get to decide.

Men get to decide what women can do with THEIR OWN bodies.

One of the things I find utterly abhorrent about this whole discussion is that a corpse has more bodily autonomy than a live woman.

[kallend 1,646]

7 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Both of you quit trying to spin shit. Rape. Incest. etc. all falls under physical and psychological trauma. 

Your line in the sand from which you won't waver doesn't look so good in the real world.

 

It really shows the poverty of your position.

[JoeWeber 2,325]

16 minutes ago, kallend said:

Your line in the sand from which you won't waver doesn't look so good in the real world.

 

It really shows the poverty of your position.

You are right, of course, as are Ken and Joe. The interesting thing here to me is the overall dynamic: Keith is clearly a smart guy, and obviously very used to having his opinions accepted in his circle, but is unable to calibrate why he believes what he believes against actual science. In the end he simply wants us to accept that what he believes on faith is equal to what we believe science tell us. I doubt we can change that.

[billvon 2,426]

37 minutes ago, kallend said:

Your line in the sand from which you won't waver doesn't look so good in the real world.

It really shows the poverty of your position.

I disagree with his position, and think that it should always be up to the woman and their doctor.

But I seem to recall you supporting Roe v Wade, which explicitly allows states to ban abortions in the last trimester, even in cases of rape or incest.  Indeed, you were very vocal about your displeasure when it was overturned.

So YOU supported a ruling that can force a 10 year old child to go through a pregnancy and labor and give birth to her rapists child.  Is that because you want to force 10 year olds to give birth?  That's really your line in the sand?

Or is more that you sometimes support things that, in most cases, are good enough?  If so, you don't have much standing to criticize others for doing the same.

[tkhayes 140]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:27 PM, BIGUN said:

Let me clear and you're welcome to peruse my previous postings on the matter. 

1. I am opposed to abortion once there is a fetal heartbeat.

2. I am opposed to abortions being used as birth control when there's 47 types birth control for both men and women. Be responsible.   

3. I have not once said, "Ban Abortions."  Even with my own life drama did not agree with reversing RvW. I was pretty pissed at both parties. Mine for doing it and yours for not codifying it when they smelled it on the horizon.

Suddenly, I'm on Joe's shit list for being a moderate.  

1. first we have to define fetal heartbeat.... is that AFTER the heart has fully developed or are you just talking about tiny incomprehensible electric pulses that could be called a heartbeat, before the heart actually exists?  There will NEVER be a clear definition of what a fetal heartbeat is.  Why do you care about heartbeat instead of some level of brain function?  Why not gastrointestinal development?  What about kidney functions?  What is it that makes the heart the 'key to life' over everything else that is going on that sustains the life of a zygote?  All the fetal heartbeat argument does is create an emotional response and puts a foot in the door of the discussion.  It actually has no medical or scientific basis whatsoever.

2.  EVERYONE is against abortion being used as birth control but that argument ranks up there with taking ALL the guns away because a few people used them for violent crime.

 

I don't care if the fetus is a 'person; or not.  I don't care if it is in there curing cancer and writing poetry.  It does not have the right to occupy someone else's body without that person's permission.

The idea that people would write laws to take away bodily autonomy/authority/control for women and NEVER CONSIDER any such thing for men is so completely unconstitutional and totally misogynistic and only exists because of religious dogma.

equal rights my fucking ass.  This is a country where we wrote a constitution that stated that everyone was equal and today cannot admit that 'we didn't actually mean that'.....

Fetal cardiac function during the first trimester of pregnancy - PMC (nih.gov) - no mention of 'when fetal heartbeat starts' like it is some kind of date and time.

[BIGUN 1,069]

2 hours ago, tkhayes said:

- no mention of 'when fetal heartbeat starts' like it is some kind of date and time.

TK - from your posted article, "At the end of the 4th week of gestation, the heartbeats of the embryo begin."

[gowlerk 1,923]

15 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

TK - from your posted article, "At the end of the 4th week of gestation, the heartbeats of the embryo begin."

So that is the line, four weeks? That would basically be a ban. But I know, you would reluctantly accept giving relief to those women deemed to have an excuse. Because somehow even though the baby now has a heartbeat it would be justifiable homicide. It makes no sense at all. Either it is a human life worthy of all the protections of the law or it is not. It is an impossible thing to judge and that is why it needs to be left to the woman to decide. Because no one else can. You don't seem to be the slightest bit interested in saying who makes the call. And I understand that because there is no good answer so like all the hard questions here you just ignore it.

[tkhayes 140]

22 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

TK - from your posted article, "At the end of the 4th week of gestation, the heartbeats of the embryo begin."

only part of the issues I talked about.  you have not addressed the other points.  Why does heartbeat matter over kidney function?  Over brain development?  what significance does the heartbeat half in determining 'life'.  It would suggest that before 4 weeks it is NOT a life? Or NOT a person?

Do you believe that women have (or should have) bodily autonomy or equal rights that men enjoy?  Are you willing to say that under the law, women should NOT have rights to their body?  Which is the effective result of any anti-abortion legislation.

[BIGUN 1,069]

20 minutes ago, tkhayes said:

only part of the issues I talked about.  you have not addressed the other points.  Why does heartbeat matter over kidney function?  Over brain development?  what significance does the heartbeat half in determining 'life'. 

OK. So, let's say you want to encompass all of these factors which is the embryonic stage which generally runs from the 5th to 10th week. So, all of these organs + heartbeat = life.  You good with that?

[JoeWeber 2,325]

Just now, BIGUN said:

OK. So, let's say you want to encompass all of these factors which is the embryonic stage which generally runs from the 5th to 10th week. So, all of these organs + heartbeat = life.  You good with that?

Me, no. However, I do like it that you've modified an untenable standard. But the course of the life an individual, or their family, shouldn't be negotiated over like a rug in an Arab souk. That is none of you business and that is the point. Whatever belief system you rely on to make these judgements, even with evolving concessions, is bunk and imposing those views on anyone is wrong. 

[BIGUN 1,069]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Me, no.

Ok. So after the embryonic stage, the fetal stage begins at week 11. You good with organs + heartbeat + fetus at week 11 or 12?

6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

imposing those views on anyone is wrong. 

All laws are based on some view. Including murder. 

[JoeWeber 2,325]

11 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Ok. So after the embryonic stage, the fetal stage begins at week 11. You good with organs + heartbeat + fetus at week 11 or 12?

All laws are based on some view. Including murder. 

Yes, but with a good dollop of fairness to all  parties. The anti-abortion position is adverse to over half of humanity and based on religious views shared by a minority.