Reginald 0 #51 March 21, 2006 QuoteI have been pushed out, and pushed people out. ... but still funny. So Ron which one was funny? Be pushed or pushing? "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #52 March 21, 2006 QuoteWell for me it is usually about discipline. When we have freefliers out first, no RW groups, they know how to spot and get the fuck out. Teams usually spend to long in the door and do not account for this when starting the clinb out. A lot of the RW people at my DZ are old farts (no offense) and do not have the overall canopy skill some of the new freefliers have and NEED a perfect spot where better pilots can get back from a larger variety of spots. It's been a long time since I have seen a freefly group take 10+ seconds once ready to get out before even starting the count. I see RW do it all the time. We have more go arounds with RW groups than we do with more groups of freefliers. I dont mean to be mean, but sometimes it is about discipline. No ego in this post.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #53 March 21, 2006 This is exactly how the "old fart rw people" AT MY DZ would respond. And in my sometimes highlighted post, you would see the words AT MY DZ. AT MY DZ, this is the way things seem to be. No team oriented RW jumper would ever do a hopnpop to fly a canopy. Come and see for yourself if you think I am all ego. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #54 March 21, 2006 Like I said, every DZ is different. If you can have your RW guys teach mine some things, I'll have our freefliers whip yours into shape. And this is not concrete. There are plenty of more than competant RW jumpers. I just think the newer ones AT MY DZ( not as many of the older RW crowd anymore) dont have as much experience as some of the freefliers. Hopefully we all continue learning. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #55 March 21, 2006 Well Bill made the exact opposite generalization about FF vs RW. Like I said AT MY DZ this is usually the way of things. Its also a good bet that in light and variable winds, a freeflier will land whatever way we decide (our policy) while a RW jumper will follow the wind indicator (not our policy). Weargue quite a bit over this. But this is the way of things AT MY DZ. Its not easy to teach an old dog new tricks. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinghonu 0 #56 March 21, 2006 QuoteThis is exactly how the "old fart rw people" AT MY DZ would respond. And in my sometimes highlighted post, you would see the words AT MY DZ. AT MY DZ, this is the way things seem to be. No team oriented RW jumper would ever do a hopnpop to fly a canopy. Come and see for yourself if you think I am all ego. Well....this thread has gotten slightly off topic - where are we now RW vs. FF. Sheesh - give me a break. Aren't we all skydivers? Do you HONESTLY think, any of you bitching & moaning on both sides, that people who take too long in the door are trying to screw everyone else out of the perfect spot OR are hoping that others to exit after them are so far out they have problems making it back OR what the fuck ever else you guys are blaming each other for? Face it (youngsters AND old farts) BOTH FF and RW jumpers have their fuck ups in the door. BOTH RW and FF can have quite a few people on a jump allowing BOTH to take "too much time" in the door. BOTH RW and FF should plan their exits (not to mention the whole damn jump) on the ground. Keep on fighting....you guys sound really cool and knowlegeable and we are all learning so much from your informative posts "Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #57 March 22, 2006 wel it started about pushing someone out the door and naturally turned to why someone would, or why they would get angry. Now we are discussing it and hopefully we will learn from it. We are not all sunshine and flowers. We can get angry. But i dont dislike jumpers because of some of there actions. do they annoy me sometimes, yes. But that leads to beer around a fire and everyone making nice nice. So to go back on topic, as long as safety is not an issure, it is extremely funny to push someone out of the door. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #58 March 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteBut I've been to DZs that are screwed up and let FF out first and at those DZs it's the FFer's. surely ff goin first is better? they fall faster, there for getting out the way, and as they are vertical they present more to the relative wind so are more affected by it, and as u run into wind then that means they are getting pushed further away? ive never heard a good argument for ff going after rw That's completely backwards mate . As Ron mentioned, Kallend's exit separation presentation is what you want. Here it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #59 March 22, 2006 QuoteThis is exactly how the "old fart rw people" AT MY DZ would respond Sparky is an old fart. But he also has done more in the sport than you and I together. QuoteNo team oriented RW jumper would ever do a hopnpop to fly a canopy. You really think that? Ever heard of Ian Bobo, Shannon Pilcher, Joey Jones? QuoteAnd this is not concrete. There are plenty of more than competant RW jumpers. I just think the newer ones ( not as many of the older RW crowd anymore) dont have as much experience as some of the freefliers. Hopefully we all continue learning. Amazing how you think the type of jump you do has anything to do with your skill or ability in anything other than that type of jumping."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #60 March 22, 2006 Quote Its also a good bet that in light and variable winds, a freeflier will land whatever way we decide (our policy) while a RW jumper will follow the wind indicator (not our policy). Weargue quite a bit over this. But this is the way of things AT MY DZ. Its not easy to teach an old dog new tricks. umm...not getting through to you. More generalizations of questionable value. It too has nothing to do with FF or RW. and that's a different problem. A DZ can opt for 'first down sets pattern,' or 'always land in this direction for light and variable.' And those who dislike the setting by the first can land over there. So long as it's spelled out and ACTUALLY FOLLOWED, ok. But in my limited practice across DZs in California, first down set patterns sucks ass. Doesn't work well at all. L&V can have issues too, over how light is light, but I've not seen the same numbers of heads ons approaches on final. Separating out swooping from regular landings, otoh, works great. The hotrodders can downwind if they want, and I keep out of their vertical airspace over the pond/area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #61 March 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteBut I've been to DZs that are screwed up and let FF out first and at those DZs it's the FFer's. surely ff goin first is better? they fall faster, there for getting out the way, and as they are vertical they present more to the relative wind so are more affected by it, and as u run into wind then that means they are getting pushed further away? ive never heard a good argument for ff going after rw That's completely backwards mate . As Ron mentioned, Kallend's exit separation presentation is what you want. Here it is. No with a decent tail wind DaveYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #62 March 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteThat's completely backwards mate . No with a decent tail wind Dave 'Coz everyone loves trying to get six groups out on a 22 second jump-run Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #63 March 22, 2006 Again I am refering to, wait for it.....AT MY DZ!!!!! Like was said in the other posts, Bill and I were refering to our experiences at our respective DZs. And I can see that Sparky was been aaround the block a few times. And I am not saying anything about him, I am refering to the mentality of the RW fliers at my DZ. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #64 March 22, 2006 OK, for the record, I am not making generalizations about disciplines as a whole, I am speaking about the pretty finite lines that can be drawn about the jumpers AT MY DZ. The jumpers that gravitate towards team or organized RW, AT MY DZ, spend very little if at all time devoted strictly to canopy flight. The jumpers who do not gravitate towards team or organized RW can be seen quite often doing hopnpops while full altitude is available strictly for the sake of flying a canopy. And those RW jumpers AT MY DZ tend to dissagree about setting a landing pattern when it comes time to jumping in light and variable winds. The non-RW jumpers are fine with it. All streotypes and prejudices in the previous post are brought to you strictly as conversation about my (John's) DZ and have dug me a whole to which it appears I will never leave to return to enjoying pushing anyone out of a plane, regardless of what discipline they might or might not be participating in. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #65 March 22, 2006 There are a lot of issues being brought up in this thread. I have been in the first group out many times. Sometimes we don't start our climb out when the green light comes on because (1) we are over a large, thick cloud and a second or two delay gets us to the cloud edge, (2) there is an aircraft at 3K flying entering the airspace over the dz, (3) the green light just went off or is now red. There could be many reasons why a group is not going. After climb out, we may not be launching the exit because someone's visor just flipped up and is being shut, a reserve handle is caught under a preceeding jumpers main flap. There are many things that can't be seen inside the plane that may be going on outside the plane. Each jumper should have the knowledge to correctly spot and time his exit to maximize the number of jumpers who can exit safely during the jump run. Spotting includes knowledge about current wind directions, jump run direction and ground speed. If you don't have this knowledge, get it! All jumpers also need to have respect for each other as well as good exit discipline. I would bet that the average 4 way RW group takes longer to get set up in the door and exit than the average 4 way FF group. RW grips and RW exits tend to be more complex and with newer jumpers grips sometimes have to be corrected by the organizer after climb out. The key is knowing that it takes longer and working with the pilot to get the proper timing on the green light, and then knowing when to start the climb out so that by the time the plane reaches the exit point, the count is also at "Go!" Another element to proper exit timing, is to get the door up when instructed and have the spotter(s) get their heads out to look under the plane, as well as down and up the jump run as far as possible. GPS is great, but we must check our airspace to insure everyone's safety including the groups exiting behind us. Like Bill said if people start yelling for me to get out, I look at them, open my visor and say "What did you say?" I am a little bit deaf in one ear and would hate to exit if the pilot was the one yelling at us to get back in the plane which has happened to me twice in 6 years. At Rantoul the first year the Pax was there, we had one of the first 3 jumpers (nearest the door) go out with his seatbelt still on. As the 4th jumper flopped down on his belly to assist the third jumper who could not be seen from inside the plane, jumpers started yelling "Go" and "Get Out" to the 4th jumper. I guess they would have preferred for us all to get out and leave number 3 to get himself free! People, have patience, respect and the knowledge you need to know what is going on, be ready to go prior to the red light, and exit as timely and efficiently as safe. If conditions have changed during the climb to altitude and one person in your group does not want to get out, get out of the way and let others who may be more "experienced" exit. Finally, about pushing people out. It should never be done. Period. In my opinion it's a safety issue. If you push me off, ...well, you really don't want to go there. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #66 March 22, 2006 I'm a bit interested to see what the other side at your DZ has to say on these subjects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #67 March 22, 2006 QuoteSo to go back on topic, as long as safety is not an issure, it is extremely funny to push someone out of the door. A lot of people are touchy about things like that. For instance, most people don't like you to mess with their gear when not invited to do so. Some people get a little miffed about being pushed out of the plane. It may be funny to you, but I'd be careful when picking the victim. They may not share your sense of humor. Some people may think it is funny to toss you in the swoop pond shortly afterwards. Personally, it seems like a childish thing to do. Given the nature of the sport, a bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #68 March 22, 2006 When I have done it, I have done it to my close friends, usually on hopnpops, or when we "planned" a freefly exit and on "ready" I'll push someone out. It's not a random thing, just adding fun. I would not do it to someone elses group. I've chewed people a new one at the door, but would never push them if they werent ready to go. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #69 March 22, 2006 I'm sure they wouldnt like it, but I don't think they could truthfuly deny it. It's widely known that canopy skills have long been neglected. AT MY DZ, this particular group of jumpers seems to fit this mold. I would love to see things change. It's just some people are a lot more concerned with the happenings of freefall than to be bothered "wasting" a jump. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #70 March 22, 2006 There's a time and place for everything. Chris' video was all in good fun and it was a cessna for goodness sakes. Everyone was already out so it wasn't like the spot was bad. Now one of the last groups on the otter that deserves a go-around... thats a different story. Being shoved out the door at that point is not cool. I've been there as well as many others around here. Thats about it. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gkc1436 3 #71 March 22, 2006 >I'm a bit interested to see what the other side at your DZ has to say on these subjects. Otherside>damn hippies Otherside>Why do they always dirt dive in the woods???? Otherside>Who hid geritol in my depends? Otherside>Running downwind immediatly and doing giant S turns, taking up the whole pattern is the way to go!! Otherside>I like spiraling down over the peas from 2000' to 500' thats more fun. Actually heard on the otherside>The parachute ride is a necessary evil so i can jump again. The unfortunate thing is that some will never understand why canopy skills are so important and why they need time and jumps dedicated to them. g your from the ranch.......aren't you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hexadecimal 0 #72 March 22, 2006 Depends on the situation... For my 100th and a friend's 300th, the two other people from our 4-way pushed us out the door at "set" in our count. That was funny. I'd definitely be pissed if someone who wasn't even a member of my group pushed me out the door, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyinghonu 0 #73 March 22, 2006 Thank you for your post - it was one of the VERY few on this thread that had some good information to offer. I come to these forums to be involved in serious discussion about skydiving, safety, training, gear, etc. and it REALLY sucks to have to weed through all the personal shit having VERY LITTLE to do with the topic posted. Again, thank you "Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #74 March 22, 2006 QuoteI come to these forums to be involved in serious discussion about skydiving, safety, training, gear, etc. Good luck with that! "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyinghonu 0 #75 March 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteI come to these forums to be involved in serious discussion about skydiving, safety, training, gear, etc. Good luck with that! Oh, I'm sorry I didn't know these forums were the Bonfire 2, 3, 4 and so on. Basically it would be nice if a few around here would stop swinging their dicks around to see whose is bigger and badder and instead try sticking to the topic and TALK ABOUT SKYDIVING!!! A lot of this thread has been skydivers getting all butt hurt that some idiot has made generalizations about who is the better canopy pilot based on their flying discipline, who knows how to setup better in the door based on the their flying discipline, blah, blah, blah. Topic is pushing jumpers out the door. Do you have anything to offer on the topic? 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johnny1488 1 #63 March 22, 2006 Again I am refering to, wait for it.....AT MY DZ!!!!! Like was said in the other posts, Bill and I were refering to our experiences at our respective DZs. And I can see that Sparky was been aaround the block a few times. And I am not saying anything about him, I am refering to the mentality of the RW fliers at my DZ. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #64 March 22, 2006 OK, for the record, I am not making generalizations about disciplines as a whole, I am speaking about the pretty finite lines that can be drawn about the jumpers AT MY DZ. The jumpers that gravitate towards team or organized RW, AT MY DZ, spend very little if at all time devoted strictly to canopy flight. The jumpers who do not gravitate towards team or organized RW can be seen quite often doing hopnpops while full altitude is available strictly for the sake of flying a canopy. And those RW jumpers AT MY DZ tend to dissagree about setting a landing pattern when it comes time to jumping in light and variable winds. The non-RW jumpers are fine with it. All streotypes and prejudices in the previous post are brought to you strictly as conversation about my (John's) DZ and have dug me a whole to which it appears I will never leave to return to enjoying pushing anyone out of a plane, regardless of what discipline they might or might not be participating in. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #65 March 22, 2006 There are a lot of issues being brought up in this thread. I have been in the first group out many times. Sometimes we don't start our climb out when the green light comes on because (1) we are over a large, thick cloud and a second or two delay gets us to the cloud edge, (2) there is an aircraft at 3K flying entering the airspace over the dz, (3) the green light just went off or is now red. There could be many reasons why a group is not going. After climb out, we may not be launching the exit because someone's visor just flipped up and is being shut, a reserve handle is caught under a preceeding jumpers main flap. There are many things that can't be seen inside the plane that may be going on outside the plane. Each jumper should have the knowledge to correctly spot and time his exit to maximize the number of jumpers who can exit safely during the jump run. Spotting includes knowledge about current wind directions, jump run direction and ground speed. If you don't have this knowledge, get it! All jumpers also need to have respect for each other as well as good exit discipline. I would bet that the average 4 way RW group takes longer to get set up in the door and exit than the average 4 way FF group. RW grips and RW exits tend to be more complex and with newer jumpers grips sometimes have to be corrected by the organizer after climb out. The key is knowing that it takes longer and working with the pilot to get the proper timing on the green light, and then knowing when to start the climb out so that by the time the plane reaches the exit point, the count is also at "Go!" Another element to proper exit timing, is to get the door up when instructed and have the spotter(s) get their heads out to look under the plane, as well as down and up the jump run as far as possible. GPS is great, but we must check our airspace to insure everyone's safety including the groups exiting behind us. Like Bill said if people start yelling for me to get out, I look at them, open my visor and say "What did you say?" I am a little bit deaf in one ear and would hate to exit if the pilot was the one yelling at us to get back in the plane which has happened to me twice in 6 years. At Rantoul the first year the Pax was there, we had one of the first 3 jumpers (nearest the door) go out with his seatbelt still on. As the 4th jumper flopped down on his belly to assist the third jumper who could not be seen from inside the plane, jumpers started yelling "Go" and "Get Out" to the 4th jumper. I guess they would have preferred for us all to get out and leave number 3 to get himself free! People, have patience, respect and the knowledge you need to know what is going on, be ready to go prior to the red light, and exit as timely and efficiently as safe. If conditions have changed during the climb to altitude and one person in your group does not want to get out, get out of the way and let others who may be more "experienced" exit. Finally, about pushing people out. It should never be done. Period. In my opinion it's a safety issue. If you push me off, ...well, you really don't want to go there. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #66 March 22, 2006 I'm a bit interested to see what the other side at your DZ has to say on these subjects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #67 March 22, 2006 QuoteSo to go back on topic, as long as safety is not an issure, it is extremely funny to push someone out of the door. A lot of people are touchy about things like that. For instance, most people don't like you to mess with their gear when not invited to do so. Some people get a little miffed about being pushed out of the plane. It may be funny to you, but I'd be careful when picking the victim. They may not share your sense of humor. Some people may think it is funny to toss you in the swoop pond shortly afterwards. Personally, it seems like a childish thing to do. Given the nature of the sport, a bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #68 March 22, 2006 When I have done it, I have done it to my close friends, usually on hopnpops, or when we "planned" a freefly exit and on "ready" I'll push someone out. It's not a random thing, just adding fun. I would not do it to someone elses group. I've chewed people a new one at the door, but would never push them if they werent ready to go. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #69 March 22, 2006 I'm sure they wouldnt like it, but I don't think they could truthfuly deny it. It's widely known that canopy skills have long been neglected. AT MY DZ, this particular group of jumpers seems to fit this mold. I would love to see things change. It's just some people are a lot more concerned with the happenings of freefall than to be bothered "wasting" a jump. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #70 March 22, 2006 There's a time and place for everything. Chris' video was all in good fun and it was a cessna for goodness sakes. Everyone was already out so it wasn't like the spot was bad. Now one of the last groups on the otter that deserves a go-around... thats a different story. Being shoved out the door at that point is not cool. I've been there as well as many others around here. Thats about it. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gkc1436 3 #71 March 22, 2006 >I'm a bit interested to see what the other side at your DZ has to say on these subjects. Otherside>damn hippies Otherside>Why do they always dirt dive in the woods???? Otherside>Who hid geritol in my depends? Otherside>Running downwind immediatly and doing giant S turns, taking up the whole pattern is the way to go!! Otherside>I like spiraling down over the peas from 2000' to 500' thats more fun. Actually heard on the otherside>The parachute ride is a necessary evil so i can jump again. The unfortunate thing is that some will never understand why canopy skills are so important and why they need time and jumps dedicated to them. g your from the ranch.......aren't you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexadecimal 0 #72 March 22, 2006 Depends on the situation... For my 100th and a friend's 300th, the two other people from our 4-way pushed us out the door at "set" in our count. That was funny. I'd definitely be pissed if someone who wasn't even a member of my group pushed me out the door, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinghonu 0 #73 March 22, 2006 Thank you for your post - it was one of the VERY few on this thread that had some good information to offer. I come to these forums to be involved in serious discussion about skydiving, safety, training, gear, etc. and it REALLY sucks to have to weed through all the personal shit having VERY LITTLE to do with the topic posted. Again, thank you "Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #74 March 22, 2006 QuoteI come to these forums to be involved in serious discussion about skydiving, safety, training, gear, etc. Good luck with that! "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinghonu 0 #75 March 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteI come to these forums to be involved in serious discussion about skydiving, safety, training, gear, etc. Good luck with that! Oh, I'm sorry I didn't know these forums were the Bonfire 2, 3, 4 and so on. Basically it would be nice if a few around here would stop swinging their dicks around to see whose is bigger and badder and instead try sticking to the topic and TALK ABOUT SKYDIVING!!! A lot of this thread has been skydivers getting all butt hurt that some idiot has made generalizations about who is the better canopy pilot based on their flying discipline, who knows how to setup better in the door based on the their flying discipline, blah, blah, blah. Topic is pushing jumpers out the door. Do you have anything to offer on the topic? "Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
