HydroGuy 0 #76 March 22, 2006 QuoteInteresting. We have the opposite issue. The 4 way people have dirt dived their exits, and climb out, give the count and go. The freeflyers are still trying to decide exactly how to exit, since they put the dive together four minutes before from two 2-way headdowners and a solo sitflyer. Doesn't bother me any, since the only time the freeflyers hold me up is when I'm wingsuiting - and I know I'm going to make it back when I have a wingsuit. Come on now Bill, I see both disciplines lagging in the door...probably more RW groups. I've never seen a FF group wait in the door for a "perfect" spot. I see RW teams do it all the time (Russian Team comes to mind instantaniously)...they want the "perfect spot" so they can make the back to back. If anything, I think solo and small FF groups are way more guilty of jumping out on top of one another...which is way worse. On solos or two ways, I always try to be the last FF'er/group to exit, knowing the AFFI's and TM's will give me proper seperation. Edited to add: Maybe I should add I don't mind when RW teams wait for the perfect spot. The fact that the teams are there practicing means more loads will be sent that day.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinghonu 0 #77 March 22, 2006 QuoteI've never seen a FF group wait in the door for a "perfect" spot. I see RW teams do it all the time (Russian Team comes to mind instantaniously)...they want the "perfect spot" so they can make the back to back. But I would tend to think that has to do mainly with the fact that most, I know not all, but most DZs have RW go out first so there really would be no way for the FF to try and wait for the perfect spot unless the RWers got the green early. Does that make sense or am I completely off base here? QuoteIf anything, I think solo and small FF groups are way more guilty of jumping out on top of one another...which is way worse. I do quite a bit of solos and this is a big problem at my DZ. I once saw 3 solo jumpers exit within 2 seconds of each other. I thought they were jumping together and just had some fucked up exit However, the solo jumpers and small FFers also have to deal with the tandems rushing them to get out as well. "Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #78 March 22, 2006 QuoteBut i have torn peoples heads off while staring at cloud cover when they knew damn well we went through a layer at 5k. FAR 105.17 - "No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft - (a) into or through a cloud" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scooter 0 #79 March 22, 2006 Since the old time RW people are so incompetent at canopy skills at YOUR DZ (funny,I thought it was a club), why don't you join us this weekend landing in the lounge. Some of us old timers have more lounge landings than you have jumps, and we do RW and FF and CRW and sometimes all of the above in one jump. Us old timers were the first ones to swoop the pond. As far as spotting, have you ever been in an A/C w/o GPS or any lights to tell you when to go? Us old timers had to figure that out ourselves. Before we had GPS, spotting took more time in the door to be safe. We'll try to hurry up so we save you gas in YOUR airplanes. Sorry-I see your ego is growing as fast as your jump numbers. Talk to me in 15 years and tell me if you really care about who is spotting what and flying what- as long as everyone is having fun. No wonder people don't want to jump at the Ranch, Arthur Fonzerelli Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #80 March 22, 2006 Hogging the door for whatever reason needs to be managed.....but no one should ever push any one out for non emergency reasons ...ever. If someone takes a long time in/before getting the door.....express it to them in a calm way and let them get on with it..... Deal with it......when its your turn in the door check YOUR spot and make YOUR decision......if its not safe to jump go around......if your DZ dont do go arounds....deal with it on the ground. In this circumstance make absolutely sure when you are down you speak to the person who caused the door delay and express it in no uncertain terms....you are now on the ground...so now you can get 'very' expressive...if you ar blanked go see your DZ operator/CCI/ Safety Officer ...express your concerns. Pushing out of the plane......? well personally if its done to me I will come across and speak with you on landing, if you didnt have a very good reason for doing it ...I can assure you that you wont do it again, I'm good like that.... Without a very good reason its an incredibly arrogant and rude gesture....that personally , I wont tolerate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #81 March 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI come to these forums to be involved in serious discussion about skydiving, safety, training, gear, etc. Good luck with that! Oh, I'm sorry I didn't know these forums were the Bonfire 2, 3, 4 and so on. Basically it would be nice if a few around here would stop swinging their dicks around to see whose is bigger and badder and instead try sticking to the topic and TALK ABOUT SKYDIVING!!! A lot of this thread has been skydivers getting all butt hurt that some idiot has made generalizations about who is the better canopy pilot based on their flying discipline, who knows how to setup better in the door based on the their flying discipline, blah, blah, blah. Topic is pushing jumpers out the door. Do you have anything to offer on the topic? LOL, dude you need to take a deep breath and maybe practice some mediation. Virtually every single thread turns into a nonsensical pissing match. Complaining about it won’t help in the least; it will just aggravate the situation and get your blood pressure up. Did you see the smiley on the end of my post? It was obvious humor. What do I have to contribute to this topic? - pushing people out of airplane = bad idea."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #82 March 22, 2006 >Come on now Bill, I see both disciplines lagging in the >door...probably more RW groups. I've never seen a FF group >wait in the door for a "perfect" spot. Definitely true at Perris. RW is out first, so if anyone has to wait for an OK spot it will be them. I've done it several times myself. Since AFF is out last, they generally don't have to wait (although they may decide to go around.) But waiting for a good spot is a slightly different issue from taking 15 seconds to set up an exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #83 March 22, 2006 Wow scooter, when I am talking about the people at the ranch (did I say it wasn't a club?) on teams who wait in the door, what makes you think I am talking about you? The last people I would question about canopy control is the sportsman. The people who wait in the door who hose the load arent spotting, they are hosing. And when there are clouds, what are they looking for? A giant hole to appear out of no where? I never said anything about the club, and I dont know why do you say no one wants to jump at the ranch, it's you who hasn't been there. I have a copy of the club DVD waiting for you when you want one. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #84 March 22, 2006 Yeah, I've never done it either. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scooter 0 #85 March 22, 2006 Sorry, super busy. Working out my ass 7 days a week. I'll be there this weekend. We are looking at houses up there...cya soon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #86 March 22, 2006 See you then. And I'll work up the balls to go to the lounge one day. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scooter 0 #87 March 22, 2006 you are always welcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #88 March 22, 2006 QuoteThe winds were high and she is lightly windloaded. I told her on the ground, we can not get out of the airplane until we are sure we are upwind of the spot. Light wingloadings and high winds do not mix. If the winds were high enough that you didn't want her to exit until you were upwind of the spot, perhaps a wiser choice would have been for her to stay on the ground. QuoteWhen the greenlight came on, we were still slightly downwind of the spot. I climbed halfway out but held up my hand telling her to wait. After 10 seconds or so, some hotshot freeflier pushed her out the door past me, so I exited with her. Don't climb out of the airplane until you think it's time to exit - not even halfway. Think about what might have happened if you had a premature deployment while you were hanging out there waiting for the spot to be good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #89 March 22, 2006 Quote The people who wait in the door who hose the load arent spotting, they are hosing. And when there are clouds, what are they looking for? A giant hole to appear out of no where? That is a gem of a comment considering you're suggesting they get out faster. Posting this while pointing the finger at others is revealing. A little bit of introspection might do you some good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #90 March 22, 2006 >And when there are clouds, what are they looking for? A giant hole >to appear out of no where? Uh - yeah. What do you think they're looking for? I recall an incident in Rantoul where the previous group almost pushed our 10-way out of the plane into some high cumulus clouds. Fortunately, the people near the door (Winsor and Bill somebody) were having none of it, and instead flattened themselves against the wall, allowing the other groups to exit if they wished. Everyone else exited into solid clouds. We took it around, got a big hole, and jumped without incident. Afterwards I saw one tandem that got out. He was soaking wet, from his jumpsuit to his reserve. (And fortunately that's all that happened to him!) Like the old saying goes - gotta be tough if you're gonna be dumb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #91 March 22, 2006 Quote Yeah, I've never done it either. Because you and I have both done it doesn't make it right or safe. Going through clouds is busting an FAR. Busting an FAR could be a large issue at a dz where there are local "country club" pilots who would just love to have some good grounds to get those damn skydivers kicked off "their" airport. Proof of those damn skydivers busting an FAR could be excellent grounds for the FAA to take action against them. There's also the fact that there could very easily be an airplane flying under or through that layer at 5K, and there's the fact that for many groups 5k is break off altitude. Dunno about you but I like to be able to see those who might be close to me when I'm breaking off, tracking away and deploying. Can't do that in a cloud. Give me shit about not exiting over a cloud and I'll be talking to the S&TA or DZO, not to you. If the S&TA or DZO agrees with your view that I should exit on the green light regardless, I'll be taking my jump dollars elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #92 March 22, 2006 Well when you know you are going to be going through a cloud and the cover is solid, you know that before you open the door. If you don't want to get out, move. If you do, go. It's wrong, but it happens. I have no problem with someone not getting out. But dont sit in the door like you didn't know you were going to be staring at clouds. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #93 March 22, 2006 You can't spot if you can't see the ground. Well when you are jumping blind, however wrong, what is looking at a solid layer of cloud going to accomplish? The pilot is spotting with a GPS. You either trust it or you dont. There is no need for that decission to be made while burning usuable jump run. And what introspection do I need? I am refering to incidents that I have been witness to, not theoretical situations and what might happen. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #94 March 23, 2006 >what is looking at a solid layer of cloud going to accomplish? It will clear the airspace beneath you (still important) allow you to see if there _is_ a hole and allow you to figure out how to set up the next jump run to find that hole. But I agree - if someone wants to get out over a cloud (and they are experienced enough to understand that risk) then it's polite to get out of the way. However, that's generally something you have to specifically ask for, since most skydivers assume that you will _not_ be getting out over a solid layer of clouds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #95 March 23, 2006 And it'sn not right to make extreme generalizations. I usually try to organize with everyone on the load prior to anything like this happening. We are all adults and no one needs to be yelled at. And you're right, no one should jump out blind, regardless of cover, but its pretty easy to know whether or not you are going to exit the plane. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #96 March 23, 2006 You type in circles 1st you say get out in full cloud cover then you say don't, sort yourself out. Simple fact is if you can not see the ground at exit time you should not be exiting. I watched an 8 way open team get out in cloud, (presures of the state compewtition or someting) and the rest of us asked for a go around. We got a GREAT BIG hole to jump through. The 8 way got hammered, the cloud was heavy with rain, and the landing conditions were not great. My suit was dry and I had a gentle 5 knot wind to land intoYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #97 March 23, 2006 QuoteYou can't spot if you can't see the ground. Well when you are jumping blind, however wrong, what is looking at a solid layer of cloud going to accomplish? #1 don't jump blind, its illegal, while you may not care about it (both from the point of the pilot maybe losing his ticket and the saftey aspect of it) Quote The pilot is spotting with a GPS That shows you don't know how to spot. QuoteYou either trust it or you dont. There is no need for that decission to be made while burning usuable jump run. Nope, but you DO need to clear your airspace and not be a green light lemming. I'm done here. Its clear you think you are right no matter how many people disagree with you...even if those people have thousands more jumps than you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #98 March 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou can't spot if you can't see the ground. Well when you are jumping blind, however wrong, what is looking at a solid layer of cloud going to accomplish? #1 don't jump blind, its illegal, while you may not care about it (both from the point of the pilot maybe losing his ticket and the saftey aspect of it) Quote The pilot is spotting with a GPS That shows you don't know how to spot. QuoteYou either trust it or you dont. There is no need for that decission to be made while burning usuable jump run. Nope, but you DO need to clear your airspace and not be a green light lemming. I'm done here. Its clear you think you are right no matter how many people disagree with you...even if those people have thousands more jumps than you. When it comes to experience I don't know shit when compared to everyone else here and I'll be the first to admit it. Thanks Ron for saying what's been going thru my mind as I've read these posts.... All I can say is thank God I selected a dz that is very saftey conscious to do my AFF. When I was in the door with my instructors they always made sure I LOOKED before I jumped and if I couldn't see the ground it was always a no-go...The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #99 March 23, 2006 QuoteI watched an 8 way open team get out in cloud, (presures of the state compewtition or someting) and the rest of us asked for a go around. We got a GREAT BIG hole to jump through. The 8 way got hammered, the cloud was heavy with rain, and the landing conditions were not great. My suit was dry and I had a gentle 5 knot wind to land into I've read this ten times and am still trying to figure out how you finding a hole to jump through affected your ground winds differently than theirs on landing...Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #100 March 23, 2006 When do I say you should get out over clouds. Everyone knows its illegal. But I'm pretty sure everyone has done it (and known they were going to) at one time or another. I said if you know you are going to be over clouds and you don't want to jump, get out of the way. These people that I used as examples got out over the clouds, but just waited and waited and waited for a whole tht was obvious would never come. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
